Author Topic: Dungeons & Dragons: ZUN Edition - 2011 Update  (Read 24906 times)

Paper Conan

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Re: Dungeons & Dragons: ZUN Edition - 2011 Update
« Reply #60 on: February 15, 2011, 01:36:54 AM »
My first thought was that he might be trying not to step on the toes of some company such as Rockin' Android, which has hinted about attempting to publish Touhou games in the West, IIRC. Or he might have bought into the huge moral panic surrounding eroge and resulting in most 18+ game developers banning overseas visitors from even visiting their websites (which would be stupid.) Or he might be afraid that by having Touhou fangames appear on major platforms such as the Apple Store and XBLA he'll somehow lose control of his rights. I dunno, it is hard to judge the motivation here.

Still, my personal opinion is "it's his setting, and what's the loss?" If someone wants to profiteer off their creations without being beholden to ZUN's new restrictions, they can easily just make something that's not based on Touhou.  Heck, Rosenkreuzstilette was so similar to MegaMari in concept and style it kind of feels like those guys had to do just that when Tasofro beat them to a Touhou MegaMan- or just decided to change the story and setting when they cloned it rather than make a fangame of a fangame. (I forget the precise dates except that MegaMari came first.)

I guess the point I'm trying to make is that whatever ZUN wants to do with his own setting can't harm the doujin scene at large, and if the profiteers have to go it on their own from now on it might even lead to greater originality. I probably shouldn't expect much agreement on a Touhou fan-forum, though. :V It's a selfish opinion born of finding it very dreary how Touhou has utterly dominated the doujin world for some time now, particularly in regards music. C'mon, give me some Atelier or Tales or Persona arrangements! Or your own compositions!

Okay, stupid rant over.


What you said  :3

helvetica

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Re: Dungeons & Dragons: ZUN Edition - 2011 Update
« Reply #61 on: February 15, 2011, 02:32:00 AM »
I dunno, I wasn't doing it for profit, I was really doing it because hey, programming is fun to me :B  Really any money I'd charge would be to recoup costs.


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Re: Dungeons & Dragons: ZUN Edition - 2011 Update
« Reply #62 on: February 15, 2011, 04:56:51 AM »
Then make whatever game you're making with your own characters instead of Toohoos, I guess?
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Re: Dungeons & Dragons: ZUN Edition - 2011 Update
« Reply #63 on: February 15, 2011, 06:27:42 AM »
I dunno, I wasn't doing it for profit, I was really doing it because hey, programming is fun to me :B  Really any money I'd charge would be to recoup costs.
TSO, did you know that some mangaka have their own part-time jobs?

I tried to read the argument but I can't seem to wrap my head around it

You'll just have to deal with it, TSO, there isn't really much you can do now.
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Re: Dungeons & Dragons: ZUN Edition - 2011 Update
« Reply #64 on: February 15, 2011, 06:49:26 AM »
Then make whatever game you're making with your own characters instead of Toohoos, I guess?

Oringal charcter do not steel  :V

Firestorm29

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Re: Dungeons & Dragons: ZUN Edition - 2011 Update
« Reply #65 on: February 15, 2011, 08:10:38 AM »
The more I read into this, the more I feel he's probably trying to avoid having Touhou works getting wrapped into some copyright clause when he decided to restrict digital distribution, though I do have to say that is still a bit restricting though...

N-Forza

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Re: Dungeons & Dragons: ZUN Edition - 2011 Update
« Reply #66 on: February 15, 2011, 09:17:15 AM »
I knew I should've checked this forum before I went to bed, although the problems aren't the once I was expecting.

ZUN's limitation for 18+ works go only applies to commercial goods. Just getting that out there.

His stipulation to not distribute works via digital download is perfectly understandable. At least if Touhou doujin are sold through events and doujin shops, the buyer understands more than likely that what they are buying is a derivate work. If it is online, there could very well be people unscrupulous enough to try to pass it off as original, and people who don't know any better who believe them. And he wasn't singling out online shops that sell overseas, he was just giving an easily-understandable example. The bottom line is that ZUN is entirely within his own rights to do this, as it is his property first and foremost. Would you be able to get away with selling a game online based on some other property? Fat chance.

The no digital sales of doujin works pisses me off.  It just screams "you can't sell more than I can".  So we're stuck distributing only at Comiket/Reitaisai once a year and then watch our game get pirated by everyone?
I doubt that ZUN cares that people are getting rich off of his property. Or if he does, he hasn't really complained about it because he knows it comes with the doujin territory. There are still other ways to make lots of money without selling things online.

Mostly because there are many, many, many, many Touhou and even general doujin sales events. Yes, Comiket and Reitaisai are some of the major ones, but if the smaller ones weren't successful as well, there wouldn't be as many of those either.

Yes he's well within his rights, but doesn't mean he's not being shortsighted and inconsistent in his reasonings.
How is he being inconsistent? He doesn't sell his games online either. The fact that he isn't selling them online is somewhat shortsighted, yes, but that's his choice. Maybe he doing something like that would be more work than he's willing to invest in it, regardless of the potential windfall.

Would ZUN have ever made a Touhou tower defense?  A fighter?...  ...PatchuCon and IaMP are two of my favorite works out of the Touhouverse

Last I checked ZUN had no interest in making fighting games...
Does that mean Suika, Iku, Tenshi, and the Giant Catfish are fan-characters that ZUN was gracious enough to allow into the main games (minus the Catfish... so far)? What were you thinking when you wrote this? I know you're upset about it but come on.

The vast majority of the money in touhou right now is in the porn stuff.
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Re: Dungeons & Dragons: ZUN Edition - 2011 Update
« Reply #67 on: February 15, 2011, 09:33:57 AM »
Actually I have to inquire about the thread title. Is it a reference to the policy changes about third party content WotC made when 4E came out?

I was hoping the thread would be about the new edition of that neat touhou tabletop RPG. D:

Firestorm29

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Re: Dungeons & Dragons: ZUN Edition - 2011 Update
« Reply #68 on: February 15, 2011, 09:42:57 AM »
Actually, I was wondering if commercial cel-animation covers or not covers the current anime projects? I've noticed some people making the argument about the difference between doujin and commercial works in other sections but no-one has brought up the two projects that around are/were going to be released this year.

N-Forza

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Re: Dungeons & Dragons: ZUN Edition - 2011 Update
« Reply #69 on: February 15, 2011, 10:13:22 AM »
Yeah, ZUN also said no cell animation projects where you charged money to view without first getting permission, but that somehow excludes 3D animation or other CGI. I guess because traditional cell animation is what is most likely to be mistaken as "official" or something. That does affect quite a few circles, but they haven't made any announcements regarding that just yet.

Ryuu

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Re: Dungeons & Dragons: ZUN Edition - 2011 Update
« Reply #70 on: February 15, 2011, 10:16:29 AM »
Yeah, ZUN also said no cell animation projects where you charged money to view without first getting permission, but that somehow excludes 3D animation or other CGI. I guess because traditional cell animation is what is most likely to be mistaken as "official" or something. That does affect quite a few circles, but they haven't made any announcements regarding that just yet.

this seems to me to be sparked by anime tenchou thing, which is perfectly reasonable in that case

http://ryuukyunplaysstuff.tumblr.com/ read about me playing league i guess

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Re: Dungeons & Dragons: ZUN Edition - 2011 Update
« Reply #71 on: February 15, 2011, 10:18:57 AM »
In other words this is ZUN fighting commercialism and injustice in the world of entertainment, is it?


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Re: Dungeons & Dragons: ZUN Edition - 2011 Update
« Reply #72 on: February 15, 2011, 10:24:07 AM »
this seems to me to be sparked by anime tenchou thing, which is perfectly reasonable in that case

My concern is moreso with the Maizake episode 2 anime that appears to be getting primed for release. Those guys seem to always run into tons of potholes. :/

I can understand that tenchou thing since I get the feeling those guys are more pro-like and not even giving as little as a friendly heads up... that's not very cool.

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Re: Dungeons & Dragons: ZUN Edition - 2011 Update
« Reply #73 on: February 15, 2011, 12:41:40 PM »
The more I sit and think about this, the more I understand Ammy's point.

Simple question - if I were to make, say, an FFVII visual novel and sell it commercially, would Square be on my ass with a trillion lawsuits? You bet.

Honestly, it's more of a blessing that ZUN's allowing commercial use of derivative works at all. I'd still support the games themselves being up for digital distribution, but perhaps everything else really does need to be toned down. Easy-to-reach derivates of a not-so-easy-to-reach original game doesn't bode well for the original game.

helvetica

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Re: Dungeons & Dragons: ZUN Edition - 2011 Update
« Reply #74 on: February 15, 2011, 02:05:32 PM »
His stipulation to not distribute works via digital download is perfectly understandable. At least if Touhou doujin are sold through events and doujin shops, the buyer understands more than likely that what they are buying is a derivate work. If it is online, there could very well be people unscrupulous enough to try to pass it off as original, and people who don't know any better who believe them. And he wasn't singling out online shops that sell overseas, he was just giving an easily-understandable example. The bottom line is that ZUN is entirely within his own rights to do this, as it is his property first and foremost. Would you be able to get away with selling a game online based on some other property? Fat chance.
Then I retract my statement about that.  I assumed from the ANN posting he was singling them out.  If he was using it as an example then I'm sorry I read too much into it.  As for getting away with it on some other property, it depends.  Parody allows quite a bit of creative license (I would consider my XNA game parody).  Would I be willing to goto court over it, probably not.  But at the same time there is a sense of "fair use".

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I doubt that ZUN cares that people are getting rich off of his property. Or if he does, he hasn't really complained about it because he knows it comes with the doujin territory. There are still other ways to make lots of money without selling things online.
Again this is what I'm reading out of it.  The reasons didn't make sense at all to me outside of that.  And again, I'm not trying to make any sort of money off the project, which is why I said I agreed with his stance against commercial works if that was the reason why he's restricting it.  The fact he singled out doujin works as well kind of baffled me.

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Mostly because there are many, many, many, many Touhou and even general doujin sales events. Yes, Comiket and Reitaisai are some of the major ones, but if the smaller ones weren't successful as well, there wouldn't be as many of those either.
The problem is, by restricting to physical sales only and not XBLIG/App Store I literally cannot develop and release for those platforms period.  Android I could get away with since I can distribute pkgs myself, but I'm not interested in Android.  That's where I saw problems with his logic.  The fact he's not really clear in explaining why he doesn't want these outside of "respecting traditional doujin distribution methods" also doesn't help.

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How is he being inconsistent? He doesn't sell his games online either. The fact that he isn't selling them online is somewhat shortsighted, yes, but that's his choice. Maybe he doing something like that would be more work than he's willing to invest in it, regardless of the potential windfall.
I said he was being inconsistent because digital distribution pretty much runs and empowers the indy game scene (at least in the West).  I know things are different in Japan but I'm not able to leverage any of that stuff over there.  And beyond that I know it's his work and he's free to decide how he wants to sell it.

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Does that mean Suika, Iku, Tenshi, and the Giant Catfish are fan-characters that ZUN was gracious enough to allow into the main games (minus the Catfish... so far)? What were you thinking when you wrote this? I know you're upset about it but come on.
Ammy made a comment alluding to the derivative people just ripping off his games.  I was pointing out examples of extremely creative work that used ZUN's characters that were nothing like the original games.  Things that ZUN wouldn't have ever done.  It didn't take away from ZUN's body of work, if anything it enriched it.  The big part of why I like Touhou is because there's no rights holder stamping out anyone who dares to do fan-created stuff like Games Workshop or Harmony Gold.  Really the big reason I'm even wanting to use his characters is as a homage, not to rip him off and avoid having to make my own designs.

Again I am not arguing he's not within his rights to do so at all.  I'm just kinda miffed that I can't make a 360 game now or use Steam to distribute the PC port :/

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If it isn't then show me, I thought H Doujins and stuff like that were the big market in commercial Touhou goods (and really the only segment I can think of that's really "commercial").
« Last Edit: February 15, 2011, 02:09:01 PM by ♪ Tesoro Corporation ♫ »


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He thought that on that same day he was to take the city of Priam, but he little knew what was in the mind of Jove, who had many another hard-fought fight in store alike for Danaans and Trojans."


Re: Dungeons & Dragons: ZUN Edition - 2011 Update
« Reply #75 on: February 15, 2011, 04:50:22 PM »
Actually I have to inquire about the thread title. Is it a reference to the policy changes about third party content WotC made when 4E came out?

I was hoping the thread would be about the new edition of that neat touhou tabletop RPG. D:
That was a question I was thinking about asking for a long while: it was especially egregious, considering the Open Game License that 3E had.

And there's a Touhou RPG?



N-Forza

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Re: Dungeons & Dragons: ZUN Edition - 2011 Update
« Reply #78 on: February 15, 2011, 10:44:25 PM »
I said he was being inconsistent because digital distribution pretty much runs and empowers the indy game scene (at least in the West).  I know things are different in Japan but I'm not able to leverage any of that stuff over there.
Again, I don't see how he is inconsistent. He is not a Western developer. He is not obligated to even sell his games at all. I'm not saying it's not stubborn, but digital distribution just has yet to catch on here. There are several reasons for this, but part of it is that most doujin game developers really aren't in it for the profit, and they prefer the social element of selling at events. Maybe they think that if they put it online, fewer people will come. Probably unfounded, but who knows?

I was pointing out examples of extremely creative work that used ZUN's characters that were nothing like the original games.  Things that ZUN wouldn't have ever done.
I'm still really, really confused about how you keep insisting the fighting games were not ZUN's idea or at the very least not endorsed by him. He wrote the plot, wrote new music, designed the characters and was otherwise heavily involved in the creation process. He's mentioned before in interviews that Street Fighter II was one of his favorite games, and one of the first things he wanted to do with the Touhou series was make a fighting game.

If it isn't then show me, I thought H Doujins and stuff like that were the big market in commercial Touhou goods (and really the only segment I can think of that's really "commercial").
Commercial entities don't really make doujin comics, except for maybe Toranoana but those are more collections commissioned by other doujin artists. Walking around the commercial area at the last Reisaitai, I saw practically nothing in the way of 18+ stuff. About 80% of commercial merchandise is figures, and that's a low estimate.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2011, 10:51:15 PM by N-Forza »

helvetica

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Re: Dungeons & Dragons: ZUN Edition - 2011 Update
« Reply #79 on: February 15, 2011, 11:28:39 PM »
Again, I don't see how he is inconsistent. He is not a Western developer. He is not obligated to even sell his games at all. I'm not saying it's not stubborn, but digital distribution just has yet to catch on here. There are several reasons for this, but part of it is that most doujin game developers really aren't in it for the profit, and they prefer the social element of selling at events. Maybe they think that if they put it online, fewer people will come. Probably unfounded, but who knows?
I hope it is just ignorance and lack of understanding for how it works here.  I don't think he's an unreasonable and bad person, and maybe he just didn't think about it because it isn't a big deal in the doujin community over there.

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I'm still really, really confused about how you keep insisting the fighting games were not ZUN's idea or at the very least not endorsed by him. He wrote the plot, wrote new music, designed the characters and was otherwise heavily involved in the creation process. He's mentioned before in interviews that Street Fighter II was one of his favorite games, and one of the first things he wanted to do with the Touhou series was make a fighting game.
I never did, I just used it as an example of a game not made by him that isn't a "rip off" of the original games.  I gave tons of other examples like MegaMari and Touhouvania.

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Commercial entities don't really make doujin comics, except for maybe Toranoana but those are more collections commissioned by other doujin artists. Walking around the commercial area at the last Reisaitai, I saw practically nothing in the way of 18+ stuff. About 80% of commercial merchandise is figures, and that's a low estimate.
Ok I wasn't sure, I just assumed given there's not much to commercialize and make money off of that'd be it.


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He thought that on that same day he was to take the city of Priam, but he little knew what was in the mind of Jove, who had many another hard-fought fight in store alike for Danaans and Trojans."


N-Forza

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Re: Dungeons & Dragons: ZUN Edition - 2011 Update
« Reply #80 on: February 15, 2011, 11:42:25 PM »
I never did, I just used it as an example of a game not made by him that isn't a "rip off" of the original games.
But it IS made by him. Just not by himself.

helvetica

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Re: Dungeons & Dragons: ZUN Edition - 2011 Update
« Reply #81 on: February 15, 2011, 11:45:11 PM »
But it IS made by him. Just not by himself.
Tasofro made it, is what I was mostly referring to.  If you consider it to be all his ok then it's all his.  I consider it a separate game series because it's not like the rest of the canon games and he wasn't the one that coded it.  That's my opinion.  Why is this such a big deal anyways?  I gave examples that were clearly not his work at all.


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He thought that on that same day he was to take the city of Priam, but he little knew what was in the mind of Jove, who had many another hard-fought fight in store alike for Danaans and Trojans."


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Re: Dungeons & Dragons: ZUN Edition - 2011 Update
« Reply #82 on: February 16, 2011, 12:14:28 AM »
Thread appeared later than I expected.
Honestly I think that restricting the ways people can distro their creations is, in effect, the same thing as restricting the ways people can express themselves in their creations.
Sure, you could make something using OCs rather than it star Reimu and Marisa solving the problem, but if you want it to star a Touhou character then it must be because you like Touhou and think it would be fun if Reimu solved it. There's really no way of putting an end to doujin creations, fanfiction, and parodys.
I think this will do nothing but hurt both business and the fanbase, and that ZUN is just putting a nail in his own coffin by doing this.
It's bad enough Ishihara is trying to screw over the anime and manga industries, but ZUN doesn't need to screw over the doujin industry at the same time.
Oh, by the way. I've found some new tea.

Re: Dungeons & Dragons: ZUN Edition - 2011 Update
« Reply #83 on: February 16, 2011, 12:25:09 AM »
Thread appeared later than I expected.
Honestly I think that restricting the ways people can distro their creations is, in effect, the same thing as restricting the ways people can express themselves in their creations.
Sure, you could make something using OCs rather than it star Reimu and Marisa solving the problem, but if you want it to star a Touhou character then it must be because you like Touhou and think it would be fun if Reimu solved it. There's really no way of putting an end to doujin creations, fanfiction, and parodys.
I think this will do nothing but hurt both business and the fanbase, and that ZUN is just putting a nail in his own coffin by doing this.
It's bad enough Ishihara is trying to screw over the anime and manga industries, but ZUN doesn't need to screw over the doujin industry at the same time.

Have you been reading sankaku or something ?  :V
Because the new rules change nothing for the doujin stuff, and as mentioned before, digital distribution is not a big thing in japan.
« Last Edit: February 16, 2011, 12:26:42 AM by Master Bigode ( eωe) »

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Re: Dungeons & Dragons: ZUN Edition - 2011 Update
« Reply #84 on: February 16, 2011, 12:36:30 AM »
Yes, I did read the Sankaku article first. Then I immediately checked his Twitter and blog in a fanpanic for some reason even though I'm very unlikely, no absolutely never going to make a Touhou-related game, and then I checked here to see if there was a thread and was surprised to find there wasn't yet.
I didn't bother reading the article comments though, I never do. Just the article.
Also, why hasn't anyone bothered to just translate the full post for us to scrutinize rather than just give us a summary?
I'd do it myself but... eh, I'd not be much better than Google.
Oh, by the way. I've found some new tea.

Re: Dungeons & Dragons: ZUN Edition - 2011 Update
« Reply #85 on: February 16, 2011, 12:38:46 AM »
Yes, I did read the Sankaku article first. Then I immediately checked his Twitter and blog in a fanpanic for some reason even though I'm very unlikely, no absolutely never going to make a Touhou-related game, and then I checked here to see if there was a thread and was surprised to find there wasn't yet.
I didn't bother reading the article comments though, I never do. Just the article.
Also, why hasn't anyone bothered to just translate the full post for us to scrutinize rather than just give us a summary?
I'd do it myself but... eh, I'd not be much better than Google.

Here's the full translation:
http://www.gensokyo.org/archives/1682

Includes translations of his twitter posts in the comments.

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Re: Dungeons & Dragons: ZUN Edition - 2011 Update
« Reply #86 on: February 16, 2011, 12:42:29 AM »
*facepalm*
Of course, I forget to check the site I lurk most.
Oh, by the way. I've found some new tea.

Re: Dungeons & Dragons: ZUN Edition - 2011 Update
« Reply #87 on: February 16, 2011, 01:21:53 AM »
I suppose someone in the West who wants to know what they should do if they want to make a derivative work should do is attempt to contact ZUN directly?

The worst that could happen is that he'd either say no or not answer at all, I guess.

helvetica

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Re: Dungeons & Dragons: ZUN Edition - 2011 Update
« Reply #88 on: February 16, 2011, 01:27:53 AM »
Eh I'm not too worried about it.  I was far more upset yesterday when it first came out but now I'm like eh I'll ask and if he says no I can just stick to PC.


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He thought that on that same day he was to take the city of Priam, but he little knew what was in the mind of Jove, who had many another hard-fought fight in store alike for Danaans and Trojans."


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Re: Dungeons & Dragons: ZUN Edition - 2011 Update
« Reply #89 on: February 16, 2011, 02:18:15 AM »
I'm disappointed that nobody's reading E-Mouse's posts.

It's my understanding that ZUN doesn't especially like that he ~dominates the doujin market at Comiket, etc..  Based on that I sense that ZUN would rather restrain and localize the spread of his brainchild than let it become a brand name that's not unique to his corner of the world.  Or if you want it in Western vernacular, he wants to keep it real.

That, more than appealing to public decency or giving the finger to Westerners, seems like what's driving his requests.  Maybe I'm naive. :umu: