Author Topic: Touhou 14.5: 東方深秘録 ~ Urban Legend in Limbo. is HM sequel, demo at Comiket 87  (Read 805846 times)

Not every match in StB is an actual duel, I think. Some commentary by Aya implies that some of the photos were taken in secret, with the subject involved not even knowing Aya was there.  Commentary for other battles implies the subject was putting on a show at Aya's request, IIRC.  And commentary for others, as well as one of the fights with Reimu, indicates they're just trying to shoo Aya away.

IIRC.  Been a while since I read them and too lazy to go check again.

Tengukami

  • Breaking news. Any season.
  • *
  • I said, with a posed look.
Yeah I think you're right about that. That's what I remember too though it's been ages since I opened StB.

"Human history and growth are both linked closely to strife. Without conflict, humanity would have no impetus for growth. When humans are satisfied with their present condition, they may as well give up on life."

Fumi

  • Dragon of Seven Colors
  • Disaster in Takamagahara
Things might go this way:

Main games: playable characters are more or less human (the youkai only assist them)
Decimal  shmup games: playable characters are NOT human
Decimal fighting games: playable characters are whoever ZUN wants to put in, the criteria followed by those who get in story mode vary

I think the PC 98 criteria for playable Touhou characters should be ignored as it is more or less irrelevant by now.

No idea how things goes for phantasmagoria games, though

All right, while this seems to be true there are many things we gotta take into consideration, first of all there are multiple ways to categorize an incident and it's related to the plot/type of game.

First there are the main incidents, which most of the time happen and can spell trouble if left unatended, these incidents tend to be solved by the main characters which are mostly human, like stated before there is a symbolism regarding that, humans solve incidents (most of the time) and youkai cause them.

Next come the incidents that although, do not pose a threat to Gensokyo affect many of it's residents incluiding youkai, for example SWR in which Tenshi placed a seal on most of the people from the cast or PoFV, where during the flower viewing many things happened which led to even youkai trying to figure out what is happening (although, in the end remember that no one solved this incident, not even Reimu)

PoFV was a special case because if you read the characters profiles not everyone wanted to solve the incident, for example Reisen was trying to find Tewi. This actually applies to many playble youkai in multiplayer games, for example in HM Koishi just wanted to be noticed. Rarely youkai want to solve incidents but they certainily do when they feel like it, that's the whole plot of SA youkai tried to solve an incident but they could not go underground on their own.

However I think it's mostly because ZUN wants to keep that previously stated "barrier" that youkai cause incidents and humans solve them, meaning that even if a youkai needs to solve an incident one way or another humans will be forced to solve it

The fighting games certainly were. PoFV was an incident, too. For the photog games, it's debatable -  Aya asking random youkai and humans to do their best could be an incident, in a sense, not to mention the arrival of Hatate and her whole rivalry thing in DS. I'd say ISC was probably breaking the Spell Card Rules in the service of a major incident to be resolved, but it sure opened the door for humans and youkai alike to be able to break that rule (if it indeed did - if it didn't, well, add that to the list of youkai-as-PC games where the rules still applied).

Again, I think we might be squinting really hard at the games trying to find a Human v. Youkai as playable character pattern where there isn't one.

It was not an incident because 1-It did not threatern Gensokyo safety 2-No one got affected by it. But Aya was a nuisance, right? Yeah, she was but that was part of Gensokyo daily life, incidents are out of the ordinary, even for Gensokyo. The rivalry between the tengus was not normal too, but it didn't affected anyone, just like Th12.8 was a conflict between the fairies it did not cause a real incident.

I would say that decimal games (that are not spin offs) are there to show us another side of Touhou, where an incident is not necessary to know that Danmaku is present in daily life.

Yeah, pretty much Youmu being half-ghost (I think including Sanae is a stretch; though a "living god" she is after all human). And I also think the solo peeps in IN being unlockable as opposed to there by default is iffy - plenty of youkai were unlockable in PoFV, too, and the individual non-humans in IN had their own personal stories in the game.

But, as I said, seems we only differ over a matter of degrees, so I won't be losing sleep over this. And though I don't have $100 to be throwing around over a wager, I'd be happy to make a friendly bet of some other form. Maybe a fanfic of reasonable, short length with the plot of the winner's choosing?

Yeah, Youmu is half human, I see what's Clarste point that in the end humans are the ones that solve incidents. But well, for the sake of the series ZUN does what is the best for the plot, I mean, he did a game based on the manga (FW) and with characters that we would never expect to be in a game.

What if for the next game youkai are now in danger or something and we get to use everyone but Reimu and Marisa? Anything could happen when it comes to ZUN, even if there is a formula, I actually don't think our predictions for ULiL can even be accurate.

Colticide

  • Awoo!~
  • *
Quote
What if for the next game youkai are now in danger or something and we get to use everyone but Reimu and Marisa? Anything could happen when it comes to ZUN, even if there is a formula, I actually don't think our predictions for ULiL can even be accurate.

I feel the man thrives on making our predictions wrong, his brain works in ways we can't hope to imagine when it comes to the games. Maybe not to that extreme but I still like to think he just laughs at all of our attempts to analyze what little he gives us.
Touhou Fugyouseki ~ Nightmare of Sleeping Girl English Patch
I run a crappy YouTube channel, check it out if you wish~

Tengukami

  • Breaking news. Any season.
  • *
  • I said, with a posed look.
I think that's pretty much the essence of it. We want to believe there are clear and strict rules about the Gensokyo universe, whether in terms of who can be playable or what even counts as an "incident" (a discussion I have never seen before, and possibly worth having even if it sounds a lot like some No True Scotsman stuff), these are just examples of the lengths we'll go to project order and regulation onto what are, ultimately, the narrative whims of one guy. A guy who, incidentally, seems to have no qualms with plot holes, contradictions, and inconsistency. And thankfully so! Gensokyo's magic is due in large part to there being guidelines, as opposed to strict and literal interpretations of rules. It's not orderly cut and dry, nor is it complete chaos. That can be frustrating, maybe, from a narrative perspective, but Gensokyo wouldn't be the same otherwise. It's a world of tendency over literalism. Which, I think, is a huge pary of its charm.

"Human history and growth are both linked closely to strife. Without conflict, humanity would have no impetus for growth. When humans are satisfied with their present condition, they may as well give up on life."

"Youkai cause incidents and humans solve them" may as well be an explicit statement of the Humans vs Youkai playable character pattern, not to mention that Humans vs Youkai is one of the prevalent themes of Touhou itself. Adding the fact that the set of player characters in main series games has consistently been Reimu, Marisa, Sakuya, Youmu, and Sanae, all of whom are humans, I'd say this idea has more weight than just wild speculation. I don't know what you were intending, but it sounds incredibly condescending to me when you go and say "Oh, these guys are just trying to see a pattern when there isn't one!" while ultimately insisting on your own belief that there is no pattern. I'm fine with agreeing to have different beliefs, but this isn't it.

Tengukami

  • Breaking news. Any season.
  • *
  • I said, with a posed look.
Not sure if you've read the examples already given of exceptions to that rule, but I think you at least misread me here. I'm actually trying to be diplomatic in pointing out, again, that there is indeed a tendency and likelihood of human over youkai PCs, as opposed to some unbreakable rule, especially as that rule has been conditionally and demonstrably broken (nor did I say anyone was engaging in "wild speculation", at all. Don't mischaracterize please).

Also, there's really no need for name-calling here. It's just Touhou, and has been a civil discussion at that. Until now, anyway.
« Last Edit: January 12, 2015, 07:25:50 PM by Tengukami »

"Human history and growth are both linked closely to strife. Without conflict, humanity would have no impetus for growth. When humans are satisfied with their present condition, they may as well give up on life."

Your method of diplomacy is condescending.
Again, I think we might be squinting really hard at the games trying to find a Human v. Youkai as playable character pattern where there isn't one.
We want to believe there are clear and strict rules about the Gensokyo universe (...) these are just examples of the lengths we'll go to project order and regulation onto what are, ultimately, the narrative whims of one guy.
Saying people are "squinting really hard to find a pattern where there isn't one" is condescending. Saying that people are "going to lengths" to point out a pattern that you ultimately disagree with is condescending. You're using the pronoun "we" as if you are the authority on anyone else here other than yourself.

And telling me "no name-calling" and "this had been a civil discussion until now" is also condescending and personally offends me, seeing as my post was perfectly civil, albeit with an irritated tone, and contained no name-calling whatsoever. Unless I'm not allowed to call you out for being condescending.

Tengukami

  • Breaking news. Any season.
  • *
  • I said, with a posed look.
You're deliberately mischaracterizing me and trying to start a fight, which you're not going to get. "I'm being civil except for the parts where I'm calling you condescending" is a joke. The point about the Human v Youkai tendency has long been conceded, so if being asked to be civil literally offends you, maybe you oughta step back and take some deep breaths.

"Human history and growth are both linked closely to strife. Without conflict, humanity would have no impetus for growth. When humans are satisfied with their present condition, they may as well give up on life."

Look, I honestly have no idea where I'm being uncivil, and I had no intention of mischaracterizing you or starting a fight. (I never accused you of saying anything was "wild speculation"--I just used it as hyperbole in contrast to a theory that could actually hold water.) All I wanted to do was point out that you were being condescending and how uncool it was. Saying that I'm calling you names when I'm not is also uncool.

Colticide

  • Awoo!~
  • *
Might be best to just get off this topic in general, while it still is part of speculation we are getting a bit off topic by broadening the topic to touhou as a whole. We should refocus on the current game and cool off just a bit, I really don't want to see people fight on here.
Touhou Fugyouseki ~ Nightmare of Sleeping Girl English Patch
I run a crappy YouTube channel, check it out if you wish~

Spotty Len

  • The Spottiest Len Around
  • *
  • Yuuka Master Race
Yeah, you should settle this in a fighting game.

Like this one, when it's out.

Tengukami

  • Breaking news. Any season.
  • *
  • I said, with a posed look.
I'm done. My apologies to everyone for my stupidity here.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2015, 12:04:47 AM by Tengukami »

"Human history and growth are both linked closely to strife. Without conflict, humanity would have no impetus for growth. When humans are satisfied with their present condition, they may as well give up on life."

Fumi

  • Dragon of Seven Colors
  • Disaster in Takamagahara
I'm done. My apologies to everyone for my stupidity here.

It's okay, actually I think even since the discussion started, when people were ranting over if this game was like HM and stuff like that, there has been a lot of carry-offs the main topic, we simply got carried away by "is this character going to be in", then to "not, because usually humans solve incidents" and like that.

Even in the past pages someone raised the topic of 3D graphics over 2D, that's fine. After all, I'm sure I'm not the only one who begins talking about a specific game and ends up on Touhou as a whole, still I agree we should leave the "youkai vs human" discussion for another topic and focus on the game.

FearNagae

  • Hisouten/soku Enthusiast
Alright let's keep discussion healthy and change topic :D

Let's go back and talk about characters maybe?

If we follow the pattern from 7.5 to 10.5, there's 3 characters being reintroduced and 2 brand new characters.
I'm trying to guess the 3; one is already taken by Kasen, next is probably Seija. But I can't tell yet who the third one is. (in 10.5 you get a character from each main game between 7.5 and 10.5 with exception to MoF because IIRC it was released around the same time as 10.5)

A user from 2chan (claimed) has discovered the character codes for apparently the whole version of the game from the .pak file of the trial, this is the screenshot he posted.

Note that this is not official and i cannot confirm that this is real or fake or Tasofro just trolling us

Helepolis

  • Charisma!
  • *
  • O-ojousama!?
A user from 2chan (claimed) has discovered the character codes for apparently the whole version of the game from the .pak file of the trial, this is the screenshot he posted.

Note that this is not official and i cannot confirm that this is real or fake or Tasofro just trolling us
That is nice, but I've opened both pak files with hexprobe and there are no such lines. A PAK file is also a package file containing multiple files, so even if it would contain characters, it would be the character files or something but again, no such thing.

Besides the screenshot reads things like 'a TRAP' at the top (-11/10 trolling), sinmyoumaru (who is that?) and animreset2d (such code can be seen in the exe file).

Cute though.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2015, 06:57:44 AM by Helepolis »

That is nice, but I've opened both pak files with hexprobe and there are no such lines. A PAK file is also a package file containing multiple files, so even if it would contain characters, it would be the character files or something but again, no such thing.

Besides the screenshot reads things like 'a TRAP' at the top (-11/10 trolling), sinmyoumaru (who is that?) and animreset2d (such code can be seen in the exe file).

Cute though.

The user claimed this is how he read the code:

Quote
ベクターでバイナリエディタのStirlingをDL
http://www.vector.co.jp/soft/win95/util/se079072.html

心綺楼体験版の.pakの中身を見る
mokouとかshinmyoumaruで検索

以上

This is the 2chan link btw

Helepolis

  • Charisma!
  • *
  • O-ojousama!?
Now that seems more useful information. I might be horribly wrong with my previous post as these guys didn't use Hexeditor to check the data but a process analyser. Though one of them seems to claim Mokou / Shinmyoumaru are in one of the screenshots detected and in the other not. Though this 'Hanako' character is located.

I need to retry it myself with that procces analyser and changed format.

Keep in mind that the cast of HM was revealed the same way, which either gives this credibility or means it's easier for a troll to fake credibility. Or for Tasofro to troll us.

game2011

  • magneiptVE
    • Unsurpassed ??asual Dating - Real Women

Colticide

  • Awoo!~
  • *
Shinmyoumaru.

I have a feeling that it was sarcasm for misspelling her name.
Touhou Fugyouseki ~ Nightmare of Sleeping Girl English Patch
I run a crappy YouTube channel, check it out if you wish~

FearNagae

  • Hisouten/soku Enthusiast
Very coool, but that "a TRAP" at the top disturbs me a ton.

cuc

  • *
  • Probably won't respond 'til this mess is sorted o?
>TRAP
Programming terminology for code that solves certain problems. Not a big deal.

>sinmyoumaru
But that's not a misspelling. If you are a native Japanese speaker, you are more used to writing in the Kunrei scheme (Sinmyōmaru) than the Hepburn scheme (Shinmyōmaru) which appears more natural to Westerners.

From my contact with the Chinese translation patch team, I can confirm this leak is legit. In the demo, files for these characters are referenced:

reimu
marisa
ichirin
miko
koishi
hijiri
kokoro
mamizou
nitori
futo
kasen
mokou
sinmyoumaru
hanako
neutral (presumably an empty file)

The caped shadow character's files are also named "hanako". This name could be only a codename. It doesn't mean the new character will actually be called Hanako, or be the Toilet Hanako.

Mokou is... you knew ZUN said he considered putting Wriggle, Nitori, Mokou and Kaguya in Soku, right? Nitori has been in HM. Mokou, Kaguya, and the moon saga as a whole matters too much to ZUN. There's no way they wouldn't be playable in a fighting game some day.

Also, have you heard of the snow storm that hit Japan in early 2014? During the storm, the Tasofro front page was updated with this image.


While all HM characters are in this list, I think it's still possible this is only legacy code from HM, and some characters may yet be removed. But I'd be happy if the opposite happens.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2015, 11:21:01 AM by cuc »
Touhou Fantasy News: twitter

Spotty Len

  • The Spottiest Len Around
  • *
  • Yuuka Master Race


Since it's only a demo, I'm guessing more characters would be a possibility.

Hmm... 13 characters (3 new ones) and a boss (four new characters total) seems just about right for a fighting game sequel.  That's usually around how many new characters most 2D fighting game sequels got to my recollection.

Would be neat if more get added though (still would like playable Kogasa finally), but there weren't any new additions from the code leak in HM either IIRC.

Leon゠Helsing

  • 0 - The Fool
  • Pave your own path
Mokou huh? Now I'm hoping for some Kyo or K' references, or even Sol Badguy references. One hell of a wishful thinking, I know. :derp:

Maple

  • Mukyuu!
neutral (presumably an empty file)


Could they see how big (speaking in kb or mb) are these files? That includes the one called neutral and the others. When it says "neutral" it could mean that is used multiple times in various places, i'm guessing it could have the most basic and universal aspects such as how movement works or the spell gauge.

cuc

  • *
  • Probably won't respond 'til this mess is sorted o?
No, the "neutral" file is neither in HM nor in this demo, and there's no info on its file size. It's possible it will not actually be found in the full game.

The history of fighting game leaks, as far as I know:

Touhou 10.5 (2008)
First of all, Tasofro had been revealing the characters very slowly: only 9 characters (8 IaMP non-bosses + Aya) was known the day before release; the two IaMP bosses, Komachi and Udonge were only revealed on release day (May 25) - they weren't releasing it at a convention, so they can afford updating their site on the same day.

Apparently a Korean doujin shop leaked an image of the disc jacket's back side (which looks like this), thus spoiling Komachi and Udonge. The only evidence I can find now is this third-hand record showing that the leak takes place on May 23.

Touhou 12.3 (2009)
Tasofro released a Day One patch at midnight; the fans immediately found out about "utsuho, suwako, namazu" from the patch. The mystery of "namazu" puzzled them.

Touhou 13.5 (2013)
In January, an American posted about the roster on her Facebook, and no one noticed. At the end of the official character reveal countdown, rumors of this post began to spread in the Western fandom. On the Japanese side, the spriter for Mamizou hinted at her inclusion on twitter.

On the release day (May 26), there's another midnight Day One patch, which was soon unpacked by Mauve. Some Japanese fans must have also been prepared, since information seems to be leaking when Reitaisai was just starting.

Touhou 14.5 (2015)
In the night of Jan 12, a Japanese fan made unpacking tools for the game, and pondered aloud on twitter whether they should reveal the roster. The next day (Jan 13), someone on 2chan took a look at the game memory using a process viewer called "Rabbit-Ear Hurricane" (うさみみハリケーン).
« Last Edit: January 14, 2015, 07:04:33 AM by cuc »
Touhou Fantasy News: twitter

Helepolis

  • Charisma!
  • *
  • O-ojousama!?
I stand corrected then, by far!

* Helepolis starts digging a hole.

Thanks Cuc for this info.