Zombie Apocalypse Mafia - GAME OVER

[GMOFucker: Makin' GMOs To Fuck 'Em]

Just so we're clear - are you saying that he's attempting to take generally pointless actions that only serve as attempts to make him look townier, or attempting to avoid taking actions that would make him look scummier? Up until now I had assumed it was the latter, but if it was the former, then I can understand where you're coming from. Or is it neither? I'm still a little lost here.

Truth be told, I've been skimming capt. h's posts up to now since I've been passing them off as extra noise that I don't want to read through (he doesn't even have a vote out, augh). I'll re-read him in a second to see if the Zent vibes remain.

[UncertainJakutten]

It's the former, HW. He's posting and overexplaining and such and it feels like he's trying to be all "LOOK HOW TOWNIE I AM I AM DOING TOWNIE THINGS" without actually furthering the town's goals. It's like faking transparency, if that makes sense. Like, I usually looked town because I was fairly transparent in what I was thinking. It feels like he's trying to fake that. But it could be that his thoughts are just generally silly at this point.

[GMOFucker: Makin' GMOs To Fuck 'Em]

Results of my quick capt. h readthrough are that it seems to me like he's just a paranoid newbie who is trying to hunt scum but has a poor grasp on what actually makes a person scummy, hence his suggestion of a utility lynch on Schezo and his intent to chase Serela over a joke.

It does bug me that he blatantly attempted to follow me when I brought up Pesco (who isn't even playing), though. Feels kind of like he was just trying to get the heat off of him.

It would be helpful if you could point out some examples of him "trying too hard", UK, since if there really are instances of him doing so, I pretty much missed them.

[UncertainJakutten]

Well, you've already named a couple things. He tries to act knowledgeable with his 1/4th figure. When called out on it he spends two posts overexplaining why he did it. He also is indirectly trying to establish he is a better asset to the town than his policy lynches. The post I called him out on most recently also has a lot of the overexplaining with regards to Serela. And then he has a nice little 180 at the end, waiting for approval from the town so he can't be called on it if he votes Serela. That last isn't really trying too hard so much as an example of overconsciousness regarding towniness, and not the good kind.

[GMOFucker: Makin' GMOs To Fuck 'Em]

Hm, fair enough. I admit I hadn't picked up on how he handled the Serela vote in my re-read, interesting. I'd also like to note that I was reading his posts in isolation, so only now does it occur to me that nobody actually pressed him in between his initial vote for Schezo here and his over-explanation of himself here. Before I realized this, I had assumed the latter post originated from him defending himself, but I guess not. Definitely seeing the overconciousness now.

As for what this actually means, I'd say it casts capt. h in a fairly bad light now. I would like to see him get a vote out and talk about some other people so that I can manage a stronger read on him. It should be noted that all of capt. h's focus so far seems to be on his own cases, which is making him come off as a bit single-minded. He's not being much of a team player for town as a whole with this lack of input despite otherwise appearing to have the intention of acting as a townie, and I can't say I'm fond of this. I do not have as much interest in seeing capt. h hang as I do in the lynch of Conqueror or PX, but I find it imperative that he steps his game up in the near future.

[Conqueror]

Or not, seeing as huh what posted.

Most notably, his lacking pressure of PX followed by a meta-backpedal here comes off as awkward fencesitting. He's batting at PX but not actually making a concrete stance, which looks especially odd when you consider how their opinions seem to line up.

Calling the first post of mine pressure on PX is a bit of a stretch, calling the second one a meta backpedal just doesn't make sense, as I hadn't provided any opinions on PX before that. Also, I wouldn't say PX's opinions line up with mine, seeing as he has yet to say anything on any of the cases. For the record, my stance on PX is that he is acting blatantly anti-town...as he has been even in the past. I can't read anything off his bandwagon hop and his non-sensical grilling of capt h.'s derp.

Even after being pressed, he still hasn't come up with a better case beyond rampant tunneling of capt. h, and his declaration of all the other current conflicts as silly seems rather odd when you consider that he himself is following a particularly weak case.

My case may have started with the silly comment on the number of scum in the game, but as capt. h has spoken more he certainly hasn't done himself any favors with the blatant reluctance to take a side. And while I don't find it immediately scummy, it's certainly not town, and that makes it better than the other cases which have been formed with minimal reasoning.

He even admitted that he doesn't find capt. h that scummy in this post, and I can't say I understand what makes capt. h look worse than the other players who have been voted up to this point.

I can't say I understand what makes the other players who have been voted up to this point look worse than capt. h! So why shouldn't I be voting for capt. h in that case?

Conqueror's current vote is essentially filler to make up for his lack of opinions in any other areas, and I can't say I like the way this looks.

Now that is a misrep. I have a clear opinion on the other cases, and that is that they are bad. Apparently you agree with me, at least with your latest unvote of Bard.

So if it's a null tell, why are you still voting him?

This is exactly why I think your vote comes off as filler. You're not really voting somebody for being scum at all.

I am voting someone for being scummier than the other options on the table.


huh what's revised reasoning for voting Bardiche is unnerving me a little, but that's not really an issue because he could have misread Bard's first post.
This latest post of misreps is just argh though. And if your reason for voting me is because you find me to be tunneling in on capt. h to make up for a lack of opinions, then wouldn't it make more sense for you to be voting PX?

[GMOFucker: Makin' GMOs To Fuck 'Em]

While I'm at it, it should be noted that these opinions on capt. h do not really affect my takes on Conqueror and PX, since their votes on him were entirely irrelevant to my reasons for disliking the captain.

Ninja'd by Conqueror. Will address that in a bit.

[UncertainJakutten]

@HW: Well, as I said, I'm not SOLD on scum yet, just leaning heavily there. I also want a Bardiche response to my concerns. To be honest I don't understand your unvote. I thought you were voting because of his exclusion of other players in his "posting a lot of noise" thing, like I was.

[Conqueror]

Looking back and I see that NeoSerela's vote on me is because capt. h is an "easy scum target", ignoring that capt. h could be scum. But he understands why I might be voting him. What. I'll look at this again tomorrow.

[GMOFucker: Makin' GMOs To Fuck 'Em]

@ Conqueror:

Calling the first post of mine pressure on PX is a bit of a stretch, calling the second one a meta backpedal just doesn't make sense, as I hadn't provided any opinions on PX before that. Also, I wouldn't say PX's opinions line up with mine, seeing as he has yet to say anything on any of the cases. For the record, my stance on PX is that he is acting blatantly anti-town...as he has been even in the past. I can't read anything off his bandwagon hop and his non-sensical grilling of capt h.'s derp.

Except you had. In the same sentence. "PX is anti-town" is an opinion.
Okay, let's pretend that this was your first game with PX, although you knew he had an amount of experience equal to the amount he actually has. Would you find his apparent anti-townness scummy or not?

Basically, I don't buy that he's worth ignoring entirely just because he's played poorly as town in the past. It is essentially the same as letting somebody get away with acting scummy just because they've acted scummy as town. Also, how is his grilling nonsensical when it's pretty much the same as yours? Do you consider your own case on capt. h to be nonsensical?

I can't say I understand what makes the other players who have been voted up to this point look worse than capt. h! So why shouldn't I be voting for capt. h in that case?

Your lack of interest in the other cases should not allow you to pretend that they don't exist and give you a pass to only focus on the captain. Tunneling on one player while occasionally saying "I don't agree with anything else" when you are not even explaining why you don't agree with anything else might as well be the same as tunneling. Since you believe the cases are bad, the least you could do would be to explain exactly why you disagree with them so that town has your input. A lack of a shown thought process regarding your opinions on the other cases gives me the impression that your takes on them are simply throwaway comments.

I am voting someone for being scummier than the other options on the table.

What I fail to see is exactly why you are considering him scummy. Your case is awkwardly structured and you are continuing to pursue it even after conceding some points to your target. It looks as if you are scum hanging on too hard to the case they believed was the most convenient so that they do not have to backpedal and come up with serious opinions on other players (as that would both draw attention to them and possibly give them extra chances to slip up).

I don't understand your last paragraph at all. Why would I be voting PX again?

@ UK:

To be honest I don't understand your unvote. I thought you were voting because of his exclusion of other players in his "posting a lot of noise" thing, like I was.

My main reasons for voting Bardiche originated from misconceptions I had about his vote on Serela; namely, I thought he fully intended to see Serela hang over a trivial matter generally unrelated to alignment while in reality his forcefulness was a push out of the RVS. This makes the general weakness of his vote somewhat more understandable, I believe. My questioning of Bardiche's choice of Serela was mainly because I wanted to learn a bit more of his thought process behind the vote. It was not the primary reason for my suspicion so much as an attempt to extract information so that I could further judge him.

[Affinity]

Eh, since so much happened in the span of... 5 hours, I think I'll ditch the things I said about huhwhat.  The reason I went for him instead of UK and others is because he said something about how slamming people for how they play RVS is bad, which I disagreed with.

On Conqueror, everything seems to have been said to death.  I will point out that lashing against huhwhat instead of Kilga who had pointed out similar reasons for voting him seems rather defensive and odd. 

Furthermore, Conqueror seems to view scumhunting as a rather passive thing, e.g waiting for other people to make mistakes and lashing out at them as 'scummy', when it is really meant to be something active (e.g asking questions, pressing people).  Saying that other people aren't as scummy as capt. h is thus pretty much lazy; it is up to you to find people who are scummier than capt. h through your own intervention, and given that there were so many candidates (e.g PX, Serela, etc.), you don't seem to be scumhunting at all.  Even PX seems to be putting up that kind of active scumhunting more than you are, with questions on Schezo, etc, even if it's somewhat copied.  This kind of apathetic play pretty much makes you my preferred lynch for now; the fact that you raised up PX and Serela in here and dropped them afterwards just strengthens the fact.

##Unvote
##Vote: Conqueror

I don't have many problems with capt.h beyond the apparently newbness; his points about how Conqueror is defending Bard when he had no strong opinions at all is more original than what Conqueror has come up with all game.

---

Serela, what are you really voting Conqueror for? 

[Dormio Ergo Sum]

And now we magically jump to page 5.
What.

Anyway.
Allow me to attempt to channel Infinity and his zombie hunting ways.

Kilgamayan: Do you care to explain why you found the reasons for Bard uninteresting compared to reasons for me which were basically random votes?

capt. h: "We can't do anything unless scum slips up so let's not do anything that could pressure scum into making a mistake."
What.

Warning - while you were typing 3 new replies have been posted. You may wish to review your post.
D:

Since Conqueror seems to be the primary target, reading more on him before I post about him.

[Conqueror]

Ugh, I have a headache. @Affinity, huh what, I'll answer the majority of your points tomorrow.

[Shadoweh]

On Conqueror, everything seems to have been said to death.  I will point out that lashing against huhwhat instead of Kilga who had pointed out similar reasons for voting him seems rather defensive and odd. 

Furthermore, Conqueror seems to view scumhunting as a rather passive thing, e.g waiting for other people to make mistakes and lashing out at them as 'scummy', when it is really meant to be something active (e.g asking questions, pressing people).  Saying that other people aren't as scummy as capt. h is thus pretty much lazy; it is up to you to find people who are scummier than capt. h through your own intervention, and given that there were so many candidates (e.g PX, Serela, etc.), you don't seem to be scumhunting at all.  Even PX seems to be putting up that kind of active scumhunting more than you are, with questions on Schezo, etc, even if it's somewhat copied.  This kind of apathetic play pretty much makes you my preferred lynch for now; the fact that you raised up PX and Serela in here and dropped them afterwards just strengthens the fact.

I don't have many problems with capt.h beyond the apparently newbness; his points about how Conqueror is defending Bard when he had no strong opinions at all is more original than what Conqueror has come up with all game.

Are we reading the same game here? PX has posted one blatantly blatant wagon hop onto the newbie and one post completely tunneling on his newbie vote target. Considering you're calling Conqueror out for not targetting anyone else in one sentence and acknowledging he's looked at two other players in another, this is suspicious. If you misread it PX didn't ask any questions to 'Schezo and co.' and said he would 'get on to other people.'

Ugh, I have a headache. @Affinity, huh what, I'll answer the majority of your points tomorrow.

You've said some version of 'I will look tomorrow' four times now. Are you doing this on purpose?

PX: 

So, I went to look back at capt.h's posts and I have a weird contradiction here.

And honestly, until Shadoweh told me that Schezo was easy to see through, I was serious. I figure if Shadoweh is right, then I'll be able to see right through him later. That's why I removed my vote.

Post #71: capt.h unvotes Schezo and votes Pesco
Post #78: capt.h unvotes Pesco
Post #81: Shadoweh says Schezo is as transparant as plastic ilu Schezo

Do you see the contradiction here?

[Prody]

Welp, this is what happens when the game thread gets set up right when I go to sleep. I've skimmed through the thread, and capt.h's posts seem to stand out to me the most. My decision can easily change though, but I'll just put this here for now.

##Vote: capt. h

[PX]

It's "Bardiche and co."

Anyways, tired from playing WC3. I'll get back to this tomorrow

[WHMZakeri]

Bardiche: Voting someone because they make useless posts, when everybody's posts are currently defined as useless, does not mean the RVS is now invalid.

Everyone voting Bardiche: Voting someone because they voted for something everyone is doing is not a valid reason to vote them. "Why X and not Y?" is a stupid question, because the answer is always going to be "because X is the first person who popped into my head when I voted for that reason."

Kilgamayan's case on Conqueror is theoretically sound. However, I don't really feel the way Conqueror is posting to be scumsourced as of yet.

Capt.h seems to have newbie anxiety. I remember Shadoweh posting last game in the post game that MoTK has a policy of punishing newbies, which then creates an unfriendly atmosphere for the newbies where whether they're town or not, they start to worry about every single thing they're saying, and are trying hard not to be lynched. This then backfires, as it makes people go "OMG, Self preservation = scum" which then results in their lynch. I like to think MotK's level of skill in mafia has evolved beyond the point the town is suppose to have no self preservation while scum focuses only on self preservation. Scum can still take a few hits, and are suppose to plan for when they do take hits by bussing, making cases on one another along with their cases on townie. Town, since they don't know each other, also need to focus on self-preservation because our numbers dwindle at a much higher rate than scum's. Basically, UK's argument for voting capt.h is silly, and she  needs to come up with a better one if she wants to go down that road.

All in all, I kind of liked Capt.h's case on Schezo, silly as it is.
Last game, he voted along with scum.
He voted Town pretty much the entire game, as well.
In a three way between a confirmed townie, and one mafioso, he still tried to make a case on the townie.
He only voted mafia at the end of the game because the confirmed townie convinced the mafioso to confirm in thread that he was the last remaining mafioso.

Schezo is five kinds of anti-town
##Vote: Schezo

[WHMZakeri]

So, I went to look back at capt.h's posts and I have a weird contradiction here.

Post #71: capt.h unvotes Schezo and votes Pesco
Post #78: capt.h unvotes Pesco
Post #81: Shadoweh says Schezo is as transparant as plastic ilu Schezo

Do you see the contradiction here?

Well, at least he's not using his ability to travel through time to cheat at the game.

(The point of this post is that this type of contradiction is silly, and is likely to be used by scum to lynch townies who are fumbling over themselves.)

[Schezo]

Damn you people.  I take a nap, run some errands and we are on page 5?!  I'm going to say it again.
If you don't have anything to say other than fluff or I'll be back, do not push the post button.  This game is already cluttered with a bunch of crap to wade through, don't add anymore. 

---

I was going to entertain Capt. H's theory that I scare him :V but we left RVS so quickly I didn't get a chance to.   I've written his first posts off as derp newbie town, but his later posts raise some eyebrows.  Playing statistics wasn't a good move, but that was derp.  Throwing around, "big liability" ,when I haven't even shown up, is what I did as new scum though, along with buddying up to Shadow about the throwaway comment on me is odd.  His 109 is horrible except for the original idea that Conqueror is defending Bard which makes sense.

PX with the most blatant bandwagon jump I've ever seen on someone who was still pulling newbie derp out at that point, so he could ride what looked like an "easy lynch" out.  Kept tunneling when there was plenty of stuff to go off of.

Conqueror is being passive-aggressive again, wait for others to do his scum hunting for him and it's not good.  People have already said just about everything about him I would so.

Shadoweh has been rather lackluster this game.  She fluffs some stuff that doesn't really mean anything.  Then asks Conqueror to elaborate on Bard when we have as much to work with on him as when he posted his first conversation starter post.  She runs around asking more questions without answering any.  Then she goes and seems to redeem herself, except upon further inspection of her latest post she misreps Affinity by claiming that because Conqueror says he going to post more makes him better than PX who, while blatantly tunneling, has just as much up as Conqueror.  It doesn't make Conqueror any better for saying they are coming because it boils down to, "did they post anything substantial?" and the answer to both of them is no.  While she's at it, throws on a contradiction on Capt. H. to make him look worse.

It's a tough choice with who I want to get onto but the Shadoweh case is what worries me the most.
##Vote: Shadoweh

---

Bwaahahahaha! Schezo is like, as transparant as plasti-wrap.

:<  I wasn't that bad in GDC was I?

Zak: You didn't even give me a chance to post and I'm anti town. :<

[GMOFucker: Makin' GMOs To Fuck 'Em]

>:?

I do not understand what Zakeri is trying to get across at all.

[GMOFucker: Makin' GMOs To Fuck 'Em]

While I'm at it, Schezo's case on Shadoweh seems to be rather on the IIoA side (though I actually agree that Shadoweh has been rather underwhelming so far, will look into her later). I would like to see him state why her actions are scummy instead of only talking about what the actions are.

[Schezo]

What do you mean why they are scummy?  I just said she misrepresented Affinity while she did pretty much nothing so far this game while throwing a contradiction case out there to mislead town.  What more do you want?

[GMOFucker: Makin' GMOs To Fuck 'Em]

Your post came off like a report of Shadoweh's actions. You can't just expect us to draw conclusions as to why she's scummy ourselves from a recap of what she's done so far this game.

I do think I understand your point a bit better now, but your post still reads a bit awkwardly. Will have to look Shadoweh over regardless.

[Shadoweh]

Everything Zak said about punishing newbies is true. I would also put Conqueror in the same easy town lynch category as capt.h . I don't know if Colt is new but his post is asking for it. I would like a better reason to vote for these three then 'their posts sound bad.' Note that I'm not voting him for time traveling powers, it was just weird enough to point out. I still expect a post from him on the matter.

Cut by.. Schezo. I'm not sure what you're getting at. PX has no content at all. Conqueror has more content right now at a glance by virtue of actually arguing his case with other people. No matter how scummy I think Conqueror is or isn't PX would rank on the bottom by default and I don't understand how there's a comparison. This applies to what I think of Affinity's post as well. You're also weirdly quoting my posts in ways that ignore the other people I was talking to in them. And.. I wasn't asking Conqueror to elaborate. I was joking that he sounded like his scum self.

Sorry I can't like, attack the entire game this time. Bard cut me by a few hours for mad anti-RVS shenanigans.

[Shadoweh]

Actually I'm going to clarify what I mean by 'weirdly quoting my posts'. When I only want to address a part of someone's post I quote that specific part and pose a question. The way you linked to my posts implies that nothing else was said in them. Taking a closer look I feel like you've got some huge misreps about my intentions. Are we going to OMGUS all this game too?

[Affinity]

PX has posted one blatantly blatant wagon hop onto the newbie and one post completely tunneling on his newbie vote target. Considering you're calling Conqueror out for not targetting anyone else in one sentence and acknowledging he's looked at two other players in another, this is suspicious. If you misread it PX didn't ask any questions to 'Schezo and co.' and said he would 'get on to other people.'

Not really.  Conqueror's look at two other people consists of one sentence which he did not elaborate on for the rest of the game.  And by PX being better I mean that PX has actively quoted parts of capt.h's posts (especially on the arbitrary vote on Schezo) and addressed those specific points, while Conqueror has been all defense and 'well, c apt.h is not that scummy since he addressed my minuscule concerns, but he's scummiest since he doesn't seem to be commenting on any other case so I'm going to keep my vote on him while defending myself'.  In comparison, PX has actively addressed specific points from capt.h's posts, which is more than Conqueror can vouch for, even if it's not properly elaborated.

And may I ask for what reason are you defending Conqueror by painting PX in a bad light? 

As for Schezo, I don't think Shadoweh is misrepping on that point; I really claimed that PX looked better than Conqueror to me due to the above.

[Prody]

capt.h jumped on a non existent player, which was the main cause of suspicion from me. But then again I see your point, so I'll wait for what capt.h has to say next or how things develop.

##Unvote

[GMOFucker: Makin' GMOs To Fuck 'Em]

Colt: Do you have anything to say about other players?

[Shadoweh]

To be fair to Conqueror, the scum in the other game accidentally said there were three scum. After a reread to confirm, I haven't seen anything in his posts yet that would make me suspect him. Conversely PX doesn't seem to feel the need to defend himself yet or comment on, say, not capt.h so I'm more comfortable with disagreeing on that point. \

Edit: Hi Colt if you could like exist and tell us what you think of people that would be great. Did you know capt.h isn't the only player in the game?

[Serela]

WOAH WHAT, okay did Zakeri, who is not a newbie at all, really just take capt. h's Schezo case and use it himself in a serious manner. Mind=blown. I liked his post up until he did that. From a newbie it's one thing, from someone who knows what they're doing it's practically an excuse to have your vote on someone without them having to actually do anything wrong this game. We are not in RVS anymore, we have a bit of information to analyze from THIS game, which is far more relevant!

tl;dr zak is NOT voting someone who he thinks might be scum, and not a single one of the reasons for his vote even happened in the current game

In a three way between a confirmed townie, and one mafioso, he still tried to make a case on the townie.

...okay, I admit, THIS part about Schezo does legitimately worry me.  But my point still stands.

I realize I've changed my vote in almost every one of my posts so far, but Zakeri is worrying me a hell of a lot more then Conq.

##Unvote ##Vote:Zakeri

Serela, what are you really voting Conqueror for? 

He was voting a newbie doing newbie flailing. They are easy scum targets, they aren't usually informative lynches at all (except on the offchance they're actually scum, which they usually are not, and sadly even the more convincing cases on newbies don't flip scum any more often), etc. Making his vote less bad was the fact that it was ED1 and the other possibly cases weren't necessarily better to vote for instead, yet, but that doesn't negate the reasoning behind my voting for him at all.