Miscellaneous Questions Thread 2 (Please look here before anywhere else)

[Starxsword]

I can in the very least guarantee that zombie is the exact translation for jiang-shi, for in Chinese, jiang-shi refers to both Western and Chinese zombies.

Let me comment on this one. As a chinese speaker, I am fairly sure that zombie is not the same as jiang-shi. While the concept is somewhat the same, as in they are corpses that are raised from the dead. There are huge differences between a zombie and a jiang-shi.
The following is what I see in movies, so correct me if I am wrong on this. Jiang-shi are sometimes sentient. They are also more similar to vampires than zombies. They are weak to garlic, and they generally cannot see, so they detect by sensing your breath. Holding your breath is one of the ways to avoid detection by them. They disintegrate upon seeing sunlight. Some of them can fly too or something.

@Eirin:
I don't think she is immortal in the sense that she can still die from fatal wounds. But I am fairly sure she will not die from aging.
The main reason why I don't think that she is immortal is because she can go to the Netherworld. I am fairly sure that neither Kaguya nor Mokou can go there.

[game2011]

Let me comment on this one. As a chinese speaker, I am fairly sure that zombie is not the same as jiang-shi. While the concept is somewhat the same, as in they are corpses that are raised from the dead. There are huge differences between a zombie and a jiang-shi.
The following is what I see in movies, so correct me if I am wrong on this. Jiang-shi are sometimes sentient. They are also more similar to vampires than zombies. They are weak to garlic, and they generally cannot see, so they detect by sensing your breath. Holding your breath is one of the ways to avoid detection by them. They disintegrate upon seeing sunlight. Some of them can fly too or something.

@Eirin:
I don't think she is immortal in the sense that she can still die from fatal wounds. But I am fairly sure she will not die from aging.
The main reason why I don't think that she is immortal is because she can go to the Netherworld. I am fairly sure that neither Kaguya nor Mokou can go there.

Even so, you can't deny the fact that in China/Taiwan, people say "jiang-shi" regardless of whether they see the Western or Chinese variation.

And about the Eirin thing...  Someone from Danbooru who believes she is immortal and a goddess has these to say:

Mokou never explicitly states they cannot enter the Netherworld. She says (quote taken from Ghost Team Extra):

"Ghosts without a soul cannot be born...
People who can't die cannot know the world of the dead."

This is a metaphorical statement - just like those who live "know the world of the living."

"Unless of course you're referring to the next to last sentence (that being "Humans can't get there without dying.")
Considering that Eirin is not human (lunarian and now goddess), it's not farfetched to say that she doesn't have to abide by that.
Also, that statement is discredited by the events of Perfect Cherry Blossom where three humans actually engage Yuyuko in the Netherworld (Sakuya, Reimu, Marisa are all human)."

[Tiamat]

Apparently the ending of Imperishable Night was mistranslated. I've asked at least three people who speak Japanese at the Wiki and they all agreed that

Spoiler:

Yuyuko freaks out at the end because Eirin is saying she took (drank, whatever) the Hourai elixir.

  So it seems pretty much confirmed that Eirin... well, drank the Hourai elixir. The correct translation should be up at the touhou endings wiki (or was, last I checked, but that was months ago)

[Tengukami]

Guess that settles that then!

[game2011]

If she really did drink it, then how is she in the Netherworld?  Unless immortals being unable to go to the Netherworld isn't actually true.  And the ZUN interview about her being a goddess?  Would be nice if we get a better understanding of that one...

[Drake]

Ghost Team ending is fairly clear that she took the medicine, but it's unknown at what point. She wouldn't have done it while on the Moon, since the Lunar Capital is pure and you don't age. However, Ghost Team Extra doesn't actually state that Mokou can't enter the Netherworld. It's easily explained if you reason that immortals could never get to the Netherworld, since you have to die to get there. Of course, you can still just walk in so that's never been a problem. Wouldn't it actually be odd that immortals simply couldn't step into the Netherworld? For what reason? Living things can easily walk in, but you're supposed to be dead in the Netherworld. It doesn't really make any sense to arbitrarily say immortals can't go there.

The Post-Myst blurb I'm still not quite sure about, though. It describes that there is a "high-class" group of gods on the Moon, and also a sort of "aboriginal" group of gods in Gensokyo. Then it uses 永琳はその中の一人だった, which could mean "Eirin is/was one of those", which could mean she was a "high-class god" (which is why she didn't come into contact with people when coming from the Moon), or simply that she was among those gods (without being one herself), or it might mean that she's in the middle of the two groups, or something else. To me, the paragraph doesn't make it very clear.

[game2011]

Then what about the supposed confirmation of her not drinking the potion in one of the books?  That was mentioned in her page at the Wiki, but now it's no longer there.  Guess that's misinformation?

As for immortals not being able to enter the Netherworld, I thought it was always like...  Only those who are capable of dying can go in there.  Sure, you may be able to step in there while you are alive, but that's only because you are capable of dying.  However, since immortals cannot die, they cannot go in there.  There's a difference between someone who will eventually die and someone who can never die.

[Starxsword]

Okay, a few things, a Lunarian is a human. There is little reason to treat them other than a human. There is nothing implying that they are not human, but there are many things that imply they are human.

@Eirin and Hourai Elixir: I can't say I agree that it is confirmed that Eirin drank the Elixir. If the translation is any good, there is good indication that they are talking trash to each other.

Now while Mokou does not actually state that you need to be dead to go to the Netherworld, Remilia's quote from Immaterial and Missing Power further indicates that you do need to be somewhat dead. Her IaMP story quote:

Remilia: Next, I'll try to die.
Reimu: I was woken up late at night and attacked... What a nuisance.
Remilia: I take the initiative tomorrow, so listen to me.
Reimu: OK, OK. You're supreme.
Remilia: Now, I'll go die for a while.

[Tengukami]

@Eirin and Hourai Elixir: I can't say I agree that it is confirmed that Eirin drank the Elixir. If the translation is any good, there is good indication that they are talking trash to each other.

How else would you interpret Eirin saying "I have taken the medicine which I made through the Princess's power," followed by ZUN's caveat about how Yuyuko regards "immortal humans created by the Hourai Elixir" as her enemy - which he added to the end of a conversation between Yuyuko and Eirin? That sounds pretty clear to me.

[Tiamat]

Then what about the supposed confirmation of her not drinking the potion in one of the books?  That was mentioned in her page at the Wiki, but now it's no longer there.  Guess that's misinformation?

As for immortals not being able to enter the Netherworld, I thought it was always like...  Only those who are capable of dying can go in there.  Sure, you may be able to step in there while you are alive, but that's only because you are capable of dying.  However, since immortals cannot die, they cannot go in there.  There's a difference between someone who will eventually die and someone who can never die.

IIRC, the "confirmation" of her not drinking it was just based off of logical reasoning from immortals not being able to enter the Netherworld which in turn was based off of Mokou's statement about the "world of the dead" (she did NOT specifically say Netherworld, though, IIRC).  In essence, people were doing a a + b = c = d line of reasoning which was plausible enough for everyone to accept but not actually certain. However, in light of the new corrected translation of the ending, people were pretty darn certain that Mokou was just speaking metaphorically (as pointed out by a previous reply earlier up in this thread), which is why it got removed (although not by me... I think).

Like I said, I've asked several Japanese speaking people about it before we changed the Eirin article and Yuyuko's ending makes it pretty darn clear that Eirin drank the hourai elixir, beyond just the usual trash talking (if anything, it was Mokou that was busting out the metaphorical trash talking)

[game2011]

Okay, so we can without doubt confirm that Eirin is indeed immortal and is also a goddess?

[Drake]

Immortal yes, goddess not necessarily, for reasons I just stated. Without further clarification or other evidence to show that she's a goddess, I wouldn't go around saying she is one.

Lord Tsukuyomi brought his relatives, including Eirin, to the moon. Eirin is older than Tsukuyomi. Tsukuyomi may be implied to be a god considering his implied sister Amaterasu is a god in Touhou, but that's stretching implications, and nowhere does it explicitly say Tsukuyomi is a god. Eirin also has heavy connection to Omoikane (a god) in nearly every way, and could be interpreted to be Omoikane, but again that's just guesswork. On the other hand, why even need to drink a Hourai Elixir if you were a god? You're already immortal. Lunarians however, are not immortal, and while on Earth continue their lifespan as normal. Therefore Eirin would have needed to drink the elixir to stay with Kaguya, unless Kaguya's power over eternity and her influence on Eientei already covered that. In which case, again, why even take the elixir?

[Berzul]

The thing on Sanae's neck. What is it called, what does it do?

<Tengukami> You've been here long enough to know to put these one-off miscellaneous questions in the Miscellaneous Questions thread. Please have this in mind next time. Thanks!

And thank you for deleting the important part of the question...

<Tengukami> Excuse me? I didn't touch your post. I merged it with this thread. If I "deleted" anything, you're free to edit it back in instead of leaving sarcastic replies.

[game2011]

Well, I guess we can settle the long time question of whether or not Eirin is immortal...  I actually like it more if she isn't...  Makes things more interesting, you can say...  But this also allow authors/authoresses to have more freedom with her, don't you think so?

Anyway, thanks for the clarification!

[Starxsword]

How else would you interpret Eirin saying "I have taken the medicine which I made through the Princess's power," followed by ZUN's caveat about how Yuyuko regards "immortal humans created by the Hourai Elixir" as her enemy - which he added to the end of a conversation between Yuyuko and Eirin? That sounds pretty clear to me.

If that is when he made that comment, then it would make sense that Eirin is immortal. So, he said this after the conversation between Yuyuko and Eirin, not during Ex stage or anything, where ghost team meets Mokou?

I ask, because the ending in Cage in Lunatic Runagate has implications that Eirin is mortal, since Eirin is showing fear.

[game2011]

No, wait...  I still need clarification on whether or not it's true that one of the novels said she didn't drink the elixir.  You could originally find that statement in her Touhou Wiki profile, but now it's not there.

[Drake]

i guess you should get to reading the books to confirm it is/isn't there, then

[Starxsword]

@manga and Eirin's mortality: I am fairly sure none of the mangas explicitly state that Eirin is mortal. There are some implications, like how Kaguya explains how Eirin is being "tainted" and that is a good thing. Eirin used to treat other species like dirt and now she is far nicer. They also consider themselves earth people now that they have lived there for quite some time.

[cuc]

As of now, the situation with Eirin's mortality and godhood is weird and murky, but so is a lot of things about IN and Ephemeral Moon.

The thing on Sanae's neck. What is it called, what does it do?

It's also seen in her UFO portrait. Sorry, I have no idea.

My questions:
1. People say that Sanae didn't know that she is Suwako's descendant until SA (see: wiki entry for Suwako). Where does the idea come from? I can't find the source.

Sanae doesn't know Suwako is her ancestor, yes, this has been implied (but not directly stated) by Suwako's .TXT profile. Is it said at some point during or after SA that Sanae now knows it? It's not in SA (.TXT or game dialogue), not in UFO, and certainly not in Three Fairies manga.

2. Two themes in the IaMP OST are named "Trial Version". I've found the two demos of IaMP (the performance test and the trial version), and they only contain music that's the same as the finalized version. So these two themes, despite the name, are in fact never featured in a trial version, right?

[Tengukami]

I think Eirin's immortality is pretty solidly established; her being a deity, not so much.

[cuc]

What I meant to say is, as evidence, the ghost team ending is irrefutable; yet outside of this ending, the canon gives the impression that Eirin is mortal, as if ZUN forgot about it.

From a canonicity point of view (what has been stated and what has not), Eirin drinking the elixir is not in doubt; it's canonical as long as it's not overridden in the future. Just that it's murky, from a storytelling point of view (what is the shape and intent of the story).

It can be argued that Eirin has a very good reason to do it - so she can protect Kaguya forever, but this is only speculation.

I've got something else related to the IN mess. I'm posting it in the "crazy things" thread.

[cuc]

Hi, anyone willing to help with retranslating Mokou's profile?

Other than what I had retranslated in the other thread, another important mistake is this:

Kaguya is but another human forced to change where she lives [i.e. on the run]. Knowing that Kaguya is [in] the same [situation] as her, Mokou felt her drive/rage suddenly went away.

But I'm having problem with the sentences before that. I sort of understand each individual sentence, but how do they flow together

And, can anyone answer my Suwako / Sanae question?

[cuc]

The thing on Sanae's neck. What is it called, what does it do?

It's also seen in her UFO portrait. Sorry, I have no idea.

Oh, the cover art of Symposium shows it to be a metallic necklace. We can still ask: which real life object is it inspired by?

EDIT:
It looks like brass in the cover art.

The necklace on her UFO portrait, however, is green as if it's plastic or bamboo, and the design is simpler but less practical. It's definitely solid, not made of soft materials.

[Tengukami]

There's nothing related to Shinto which has such a necklace - the closest would be a magatama necklace, which Sanae's is not. My guess is it's a bamboo rattle necklace of some kind, but it doesn't seem to have any religious parallels.

[cuc]

Question:

It is said that after the battle of IN extra stage, Mokou was completely exhausted, and couldn't move for days. Where does this come from?

[Achariyth]

Mokou's known for not taking care of her body.  "Screw it, I can just get another," seems to be her attitude.  Chances are that she hasn't been eating much or well before that.

[cuc]

Mokou's known for not taking care of her body.  "Screw it, I can just get another," seems to be her attitude.  Chances are that she hasn't been eating much or well before that.

I know that's a popular idea. But I think it's also generally accepted that Mokou is an expert on healthy food? (I'm not saying either is correct.)

All she says is, "I'm a health nut that runs a yakitori stand."

Anyway, what I'm asking for is confirmation on the "after IN Extra Stage, Mokou's entire body feels sore" thing.

[Achariyth]

ZUN does seem to like the unreliable narrator...

As for the ending, considering ZUN's wishes and the fact that I suck at shooters, someone who has met Mokou in game'll need to confirm that.

[Drake]

Even though she's immortal, she can feel pain and get bruises and sustain injuries. She was just beaten up so badly that she couldn't fight anymore. She was definitely beaten and exhausted, so I suppose you could guess that she couldn't do much for a while, not that it really matters. Although, both the ideas of Mokou not taking care of her body and her actually being a health nut aren't shown to be true though, as far as I can tell.

[AnonymousPondScum]

Someone explain to me how a Buddhist monk trapped in the backwaters of Makai cut off from all human contact for a thousand years knows the fundamentals of the spell card rules that were made only about a decade or so ago in-story by someone still in the land of the living. :V

I'm gonna guess Shinki or something.