Labyrinth of Touhou 6F

[Ghaleon]

I think we stopped bothering with the spoiling nonsense.
As for 30f, I rekon you trymNd get a suwakov3. She's SO much easier than the other v3s... Of course the exp won't be worth the effort anyway but you might find it fun, dunno, up to you.
Cootiesukev3 is possibly the 2nd easiest. He moves reasonably fast and hits hard so I rekon he'd own your face before you even start fighting but his HP are so low after the first phase change. Pretty much any big nuke should 1 or 2 shot him. And unlike suwako, he drops an amazing item, best in the game aside from machine god lucifer IMO.

[Dr.Strafe]

Not quite ready yet. (Reimu lvl 310)

Random hasn't given me a SuwakoV3 fight yet, but I did challenge Rinnosuke V3. Two consecutive Heavenly Demise attacks ended that attempt rather quickly.
Out of my few attempts on that floor, the best I did was against solo Reisen. She spawned out three of her physical attack rabbits, and I kept them paralyzed until Patchy killed them all with a Royal Flare. Reisen then spawned three mage rabbits, who siphoned away my SP. Reisen drank an Elixir and down I went.

As a side note. Random loves giving me Utsuho v2. I haven't managed to beat v1 yet...

[Parallaxal]

To prepare for the 30F bosses, I did almost all my grinding on 27F (it's just so much easier; Orin could 1-shot everything, even the crabs, with Needle Mountain). The only 30F bosses I fought were enemies that dropped equipment I wanted, and I ran from the rest (that means no Chen V3!). Of the ones I actually did fight, the hardest were definitely Alice and Utsuho.

So anyway...Just for fun, I think I'll finally try ranking all the characters in this game. This is off my own experiences and biases (I tend to value support over offense), and the rather offbeat teams I've used. However, it just occurred to me that I've never made a character ranking list, so I thought I ought to try for once.

To decide the rankings, what I did was compare each character to characters that fulfill similar roles, and then asked myself "Which one would I rather have on my team?" All characters within each tier are not listed in any particular order; I can't bring myself to decide such nuiances, especially between characters that serve different roles. Of course, I still believe that all characters are usable (and I believe I've proven this to myself firsthand). However, I'll admit that not all characters are equal.

One more thing: I'm considering the entire game for these rankings, including 21-30F. If this were just for the first 20 floors, some of these rankings should be very different (for example, I'd move Wriggle to at least Middle Tier, if not High Tier).

Anyway, here's my opinions at the moment:

Top Tier:

Spoiler:

Iku

(Come on, knowing me, you just knew she'd be up here)

Spoiler:

Reimu
Nitori
Meiling
Mystia

High Tier:

Spoiler:

Shikieiki
Suwako
Chen
Youmu
Yuugi
Kaguya
Marisa
Rinnosuke
Yukari
Minoriko
Ran
Renko
Tenshi

Mid Tier:

Spoiler:

Komachi
Remilia
Flandre
Orin
Suika
Alice
Rumia
Patchouli
Kanako
Yuka
Reisen
Keine
Aya
Sakuya
Sanae

Low Tier

Spoiler:

Mokou
Cirno
Eirin
Maribel
Utsuho
Yuyuko
Wriggle

More edits: I noticed that there was a Category: Spells page on the Touhou Labyrinth wiki (I'm using Touhouwiki.net, of course). I was thinking of working on this sometime, with both general stats/formulas and specific descriptions and strategy comments regarding each spell's best uses, since the latter isn't conveyed as clearly on the character pages. What do you guys think about this? Also, how should we divide the Spells page? There's too many to list on a single page, so I was thinking of dividing it into damage-dealing spells (sorted by element) and non-damaging spells (maybe sorted further into healing and buffs/debuffs?). I'll also try to get images for each spell's animation.

[Dr.Strafe]

I figured the Spells page(s) would catalog the enemies' skills instead of character's spells. I mean, we could just expand the current pages of character spells with notes, uses, images, etc.

The Database provided with the Special Disc has such a collection, but it mainly lists the skills and the enemies that sling them (along with some stats that don't really tell very much). It would be interesting to see the damage formula for those skills, since that wasn't provided in the Database.

[NEETori]

Personally, I think Eirin should be bottom, but that's just me.  I've only really found her useful for one battle.  I think Cirno and Alice might deserve a bit more love, but that's also just me. 

Mostly because Cirno is great for randoms up until you get Mystia, and Alice because she's really flexible. 

I figured the Spells page(s) would catalog the enemies' skills instead of character's spells. I mean, we could just expand the current pages of character spells with notes, uses, images, etc.

The Database provided with the Special Disc has such a collection, but it mainly lists the skills and the enemies that sling them (along with some stats that don't really tell very much). It would be interesting to see the damage formula for those skills, since that wasn't provided in the Database.

this

[Pesco]

Meiling and Mystia as top tier only because they can solo the whole game.

[Ghaleon]

Meiling and Mystia as top tier only because they can solo the whole game.

Except that everyone can solo the whole game given an unreasonable level

Honestly a tier list is a bit ugh for me.
For example, Yukari is really pretty bad if you have reimu to hakurei barrier (and you have ran to use her def buff as well), and you don't deliberately go out of your way to manage your entire party's speed formulas to work around her spiriting away spell (or if you're using kaggy as well, which also screws it up).

Yukari's spiriting away is what I assume what makes yukari strong in your opinion, and if your party isn't organized to specifically work around that very spell, it's really pretty shitty all things considered. So the tank gets an extra turn to..switch? focus? hit for 0? ok wow. Yukari doesn't get an extra turn. So that leaves 2 characters who did not get a full bar that was empty, but was likely half-full+, at the cost of an entire bar of Yukari's who is already slow to begin with?

My point isn't that the spell sucks, it's just that you have to deliberately go out of your way to make it good to use it's admitably great potential.

I also find that you actually do favor dps over support. Why is suwako rated so high? What does she have other than great dps? Her defenses are really bad, and she has absolutely no support other than iron ring's par. Which is only useful for the burninator/reisen (boss-wise, for trash, aoe par is king, other bosses not par-reliable are easy enough already).

I also think favoring chen over remi means you have weighted preference to dps. Remi, can at least provide the party with a viable offtank. Iai slashes, demon blade dances, etc. Remi can take them in the 2nd slot WHILE doing respectable dps, where respectable is actually really excellent if you don't have iku/Keine/Some dedicated atk buffer... If you do, yeah, remi is average..But so is chen isn't she?

Anyway my point isn't to dispute. I'm just saying that the worth of each character in Touhou labyrinth is far too situational to really rank effectively imo. (Though I have to agree that mokou, Eirin, etc strikes me as not outstanding in ANY party setup).

I'm currently playing with a mag-based Yuyuko. My pervious attempt with her was unfortunately dissapointing. However, despite her slow leveling, her Mag growth isn't too shabby, and I find it VERY hard to believe that her effing 9Mag multiplier on flawless nirvana with average delay wont be jaw-dropping amazing by end game...Even if it's merely "very good" like Ko in 3 steps or something, she has excellent defenses for a non-tank...soo.

[Ghaleon]

On Phone now, can't edit a large post easily so sorry for double post. but I just thought that a better tier list would show the prerequisites to making each character better or worse. I don't have time for a full list but I'll start the first bit to give an idea:
+ means a condition that would make the character more important/useful
- means a condition where a characters potential will be wasted
They do NOT necessarily represent their strengths and weaknesses, but I suspect they will seem similar sometimes

Reimu:
+important def/mne buff. Having more than 2 other buffers may waste this ability somewhat (Yukari,renko, and minoruke for example)
+powerful aoe heal. Should be very valuable unless you have pretty much every other potential healer in the game.
+not quite a tank,but can provide the party with a solid frontline member due to her good defenses conjure with her def buff AND healing. Not important if you have many Beecher characters.
+aoe paralyze, pretty reliable, should be useful unless you already have more than one other aoe paralyzer.
-bad composite damage formulas make her useless for fights like hibachi twins.

Marisa:
+concentrate makes her more useful unless you have good offensive buffing support.
+master spark is absolutely priceless if you lack more than 1 other high burst damage character.
+good speed and aoe spells make her important for trash if your party is mostly boss-oriented.
-concentrate is wasted with good offensive buffing support
-master spark burst is less useful if you have cootiesuke/Yukari with other heavy birdseed lime nitori, Eiki,Yuugi, etc
Remi:
+reliable non-elemental damage  good for elemental heavy parties
+curse of Vlad makes remi seem very powerful if you lack more than 1 either offensive or defensive
buff support.
+good defenses make her more than capable for tanking the 2nd slot on physical heavy bosses. 1st slot an option if def-build.
- extremely replaceable if you have reliable buffing .

I should log now, that's a start though.

[Esoterica]

[tier list]

Wait, Wriggle at bottom?  Weren't you the one preaching about how good her poison is and how it lets her contribute so much damage compared to other secondary tanks? :V

Also completely disagree with Yuyuko at the bottom, she's a good secondary tank that can still provide extra damage or delay opponent turns, and becomes a potent DPSer on top of that late-game when she has the SP to spam off Saigyouji Flawless Nirvanas.  A tanky character that can still hit like a truck should be higher than bottom, imo

[Thata no Guykoro]

So I'm rather underleveled for Floor 14 (Levels ranging from 45 through 56, and I'm getting my ass kicked by random encounters) Any advice for good GRIND GRIND GRIND spots?

[Pesco]

Go back to 13F and maybe score a few blue sabers.

Meiling and Mystia can solo the game at a much lower level than everyone else. That aside, they don't need as much team customization to do their job well and can fit into most situations. So these 2 should well be undisputed top tier characters.

I think buffing is what matters more in Para's tier list. Pretty much no boss fight can be done without relying on buffs/debuffs.

[Parallaxal]

Wait, Wriggle at bottom?  Weren't you the one preaching about how good her poison is and how it lets her contribute so much damage compared to other secondary tanks? :V

As I said earlier, this tier list takes into account the entire game. Wriggle's poison damage is amazing during the first 20 floors. However, in the last 10 floors, her usefulness drops considerably. That's because the number of tics that pass between turns is far lower by the time you made it to the Plus Disk. You go from having to wait 40+ tics to fill half your guage, to waiting a mere 10 tics. Since poison damage occurs each tic, having such fewer tics means far less time for poison to work. In practice, Wriggle's poison went from dealing 20% of the team's total damage to doing less than 2%. With the much worse damage output, Wriggle's just a damage sponge in the late game, and there are still better damage sponges than her.

If this ranking were for only the first 20 floors, I'd have Wriggle at a much higher position.

Also completely disagree with Yuyuko at the bottom, she's a good secondary tank that can still provide extra damage or delay opponent turns, and becomes a potent DPSer on top of that late-game when she has the SP to spam off Saigyouji Flawless Nirvanas.  A tanky character that can still hit like a truck should be higher than bottom, imo.

I don't have a problem with the damage (or even the SP cost) of Saigyouji Flawless Nirvana. My problem with Yuyuko is that she only has one element, and it's probably the worst one to have as your only element. There are quite a few major bosses in the game (Orin, Yukari, Shikieiki, Serpent of Chaos) with 300-500 SPI resistance, which makes Yuyuko more or less dead weight. The turn delay effect of her other spells is severely weakened against bosses, and won't buy you enough time to be worth a character's spell. While effective in some fights, the fact that she's completely useless for several fights, and not much better than average for others, makes me dislike her.

Marisa is also stuck on a single element, but not only does she do way more damage with Master Spark, she's also stuck on MYS, which is one of the better single elements to have. The only notable bosses I can think of off the top of my head with 300+ MYS resistance are Reisen (easy), Flame Tyrant (easier), and Flandre.

I think buffing is what matters more in Para's tier list. Pretty much no boss fight can be done without relying on buffs/debuffs.

You're tempting me to do another playthrough. But I already have a different idea for a challenge team, and I think mine is even worse than playing with no buffs/debuffs.

[CP3]

For the most part I agree with Parallaxal's list, although I have some slight differing opinions.

Yuyuko's been already addressed (and replied to) so I won't comment on her much. SPI being her only attack type bad, yeah. I'd still rank her above Sakuya and Eirin, though.
Speaking of which, I think Sanae's saving grace for not falling in low tier is the added effect of her heal. Her buff is good, but it's really not that special compared to what other characters can do (I also see it more as an offensive than defensive buff, it's too slow and small to be relied upon as defense). Sakuya, I'd rank her in low tier, but I'll be honest and admit I haven't tried ATK Sakuya which is what I'm guessing the reason she's not there.

I'd also rank the likes of Kaguya, Yukari, Rinnosuke above Chen, good as she is. And I think Flan belongs to high tier if we're counting both bosses and random battles, because she's a godsend in grinding plusdisk and her DPS is really high when you have buffs.

But like I said these are just minor nitpicks. I think the list is great.

[Parallaxal]

For the Spells page on the Touhou Labyrinth wiki, I'd really like to work on it, but I'm inexperienced when it comes to setting up the formatting for the page. Can anyone help with that? Once we get the format down, I can handle filling in the information and images.

Should probably include name, a spot for an image thumbnail, the spell's owner, SP cost, element, formula, effects, post-usage guage, and comments. If anyone can provide me with a format for all of that, I'll get to work on it.

[Esoterica]

I don't have a problem with the damage (or even the SP cost) of Saigyouji Flawless Nirvana. My problem with Yuyuko is that she only has one element, and it's probably the worst one to have as your only element. There are quite a few major bosses in the game (Orin, Yukari, Shikieiki, Serpent of Chaos) with 300-500 SPI resistance, which makes Yuyuko more or less dead weight. The turn delay effect of her other spells is severely weakened against bosses, and won't buy you enough time to be worth a character's spell. While effective in some fights, the fact that she's completely useless for several fights, and not much better than average for others, makes me dislike her.

Marisa is also stuck on a single element, but not only does she do way more damage with Master Spark, she's also stuck on MYS, which is one of the better single elements to have. The only notable bosses I can think of off the top of my head with 300+ MYS resistance are Reisen (easy), Flame Tyrant (easier), and Flandre.

Even then, I'd imagine she never deteriorates that much against trash.  Though I haven't gotten to plus disc stages yet (might make a note of improving on that today), I found Ghastly Dream and SFN to be fantastic at damaging trash, delaying them long enough to prevent lost TP and/or characters, or outright DTH-ing them.  I wouldn't say she really loses her role in a team unless you're fighting a boss with high SPI resistance, like you mentioned (since she can still DTH most SPI-resistant mooks).

Also agreeing with CP3 that Kaguya would rank above Chen, though not necessarily MANnosuke or Yukari.  Due to speed scaling,  Chen eventually suffers from Wriggle Syndrome (effectiveness drop after 20F), whereas Kaguya never stops being good for buffing or damage.

[Parallaxal]

Also agreeing with CP3 that Kaguya would rank above Chen, though not necessarily MANnosuke or Yukari.  Due to speed scaling,  Chen eventually suffers from Wriggle Syndrome (effectiveness drop after 20F), whereas Kaguya never stops being good for buffing or damage.

As I said in my original post, all characters within each tier are not listed in any particular order. Thus, I don't have anyone within each tier ranked against each other. In fact, I was more or less listing them based on their roles. And yes, I would agree that Kaguya is better than Chen.

[Esoterica]

As I said in my original post, all characters within each tier are not listed in any particular order.

Oh, oops.  I saw CP3's post and assumed you had Kaguya in mid with Chen in high or something.  Carry on. :derp:

[CP3]

Oh, my bad. Seems like I can't read.

For the Spells page on the Touhou Labyrinth wiki, I'd really like to work on it, but I'm inexperienced when it comes to setting up the formatting for the page. Can anyone help with that? Once we get the format down, I can handle filling in the information and images.

Should probably include name, a spot for an image thumbnail, the spell's owner, SP cost, element, formula, effects, post-usage guage, and comments. If anyone can provide me with a format for all of that, I'll get to work on it.

Something like this? I just set it up in a couple mins. I have no idea about coding either, but I just looked around a bit.

http://www.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Touhou_Genshajyou_%28The_Sandbox_of_Eastern_Illusion%29#Table_Test

I think with the amount of info needed, length of spell names, pictures (depending on the size), etc., a table would look pretty ugly though, so maybe if any of the more design savvy members has any ideas.

[Kasumi Tani]

Recently I have experienced a problem with Labyrinth of Touhou (version 3): it initially loads just fine, but crushes (without error message) when I try to start a "New Game" or "Load Game" from the main menu.

The thing is that it used to work just fine, but then over the period I haven't played it, it somehow stopped working. (I think that I also installed AppLocale during that period... Can Labyrinth of Touhou conflict with AppLocale or perhas some front(s) it made me install?)

[Pesco]

It doesn't need Applocale iirc.

[CP3]

I had the same problem and solved it by using AppLocale, but there's people who don't need it and it works. I dunno.

[Parallaxal]

Something like this? I just set it up in a couple mins. I have no idea about coding either, but I just looked around a bit.

http://www.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Touhou_Genshajyou_%28The_Sandbox_of_Eastern_Illusion%29#Table_Test

I think with the amount of info needed, length of spell names, pictures (depending on the size), etc., a table would look pretty ugly though, so maybe if any of the more design savvy members has any ideas.

That's pretty nice, but would it be possible to create a format similar to how the actual spellcards from the game are listed in the wiki? You know, like having a thumbnail picture on the left, and the categories and data on the right listed down instead of across. Listing it this way would give more horizontal room for the formulas and comments.

Really now, the main reason why I wanted to do this was to write spell comments (both strategies for use and comparisons with other options). That's something that's not readily available on the character pages, unlike the spell formulas and other such information. Organizing spells by type and effect would be interesting too.

[CP3]

How about this?

http://www.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Template:LoT_Spell_Test

I took the code from the spellcard listing you said and then had a friend do all the work help me figure how to adapt it. I'm not sure how to actually use that template but I'll look around, should be the simplest part.

I have absolutely no clue how to organize spells by type and effect though.

[Parallaxal]

How about this?

http://www.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Template:LoT_Spell_Test

That's fine, thanks a lot for your help! I went ahead and wrote up one page.

http://www.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Labyrinth_of_Touhou:_Spells_8

Is this page fine? If so, I'll get to work on the other spells. If not, let me know of any way to improve it!

[Pesco]

Looks great. Though I think after you've put everything there, you might have second thoughts about how the spells are arranged. Did you consider putting them in the wiki like how the game's Database does it?

[Parallaxal]

Looks great. Though I think after you've put everything there, you might have second thoughts about how the spells are arranged. Did you consider putting them in the wiki like how the game's Database does it?

I am listing the spells in the order that they appear in the database, yes. It works because it's also the general order in which you get access to these spells in a normal runthrough.

[CP3]

That's fine, thanks a lot for your help! I went ahead and wrote up one page.

http://www.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Labyrinth_of_Touhou:_Spells_8

Is this page fine? If so, I'll get to work on the other spells. If not, let me know of any way to improve it!

Looks great, but you don't need to copy/paste all the code everytime. Since the template is written, just using this will do:

Code: [Select]

{{LoT Spell Test

| image     =[[Image:Image Link]]
| name      =Spell card name
| user      =User
| cost      =SP cost
| target    =target
| formula   =damage formula (if applicable)
| effect    =additional effects (if applicable)
| gauge     =post usage gauge
| comment   =comments
}}Here's an example:

Code: [Select]

{{LoT Spell Test

| image     =[[File:LoT_Colorful_Rain.jpg|thumb|Colorful Rain]]
| name      =Colorful Rain
| user      =Hong Meiling
| cost      =44
| target    =Self-only
| formula   =120% ATK + 120% MAG
| effect    =Healing
| gauge     =50%
| comment   =Meiling's handy self heal.
}}
I put both of these in the sandbox so you can see it comes out the same.

EDIT: usage copypasta now also included in http://www.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Template:LoT_Spell_Test

[Parallaxal]

Thanks for the tip! It's a bit late for the latest page I wrote, but I'll do that from now on. Thanks again!

Here's another page:

http://www.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Labyrinth_of_Touhou:_Spells_3

I'll stop there for now, will work on the rest some other time.

[Esoterica]

Should Patch be build for MAG, or MND?

[Ghaleon]

Should Patch be build for MAG, or MND?

I find either way is useful. Due to Silent Selen's effective mag/mnd ratio, the damage increase of a mag patch over a mnd patch, while respectable, isn't quite what you'd expect compared to other non-offensive builds turned offensive for other characters. mnd patches take 0s from pretty much everything that isn't physical though, even at low levels. So.. I think a mnd patch would be preferable if your party is full of characters that aren't meant to take a hit, and need someone to tank hits in the back spots too without actually being a tank. Bear in mind a mnd-based patchy's mnd is SO high, that composite attacks to her are only comparable to those hitting tenshi. If you have multiple characters like Ran, Yukari, Yuyuko, Iku, etc along with some actual tanks up front, mag is probably ideal *shrugs*.