Maribel Quest More - A Z-Machine Adventure

[Hello Purvis]

>That apathy like textbook depression as much as anything...
>"Do natural youkai tend to have a better memory for such long periods?"
>"What about now? What's been most effective for coping with it?"

>You wouldn't be surprised. You did kind of study this thing.
>"As far as I can tell. Like, I can't remember shit about whole generations anymore, not unless I sit down and spend the evening trying to make a chart or something. As for what kept me going? Revenge." She waves a hand. "Just take my word on it, don't feel like getting all pissed off tonight going into it. And even that's not really that great, since it's why I took that damn elixir to begin with. That said, recently? Keine's been a hell of a help. So's the fact I've ignore pretty much ignored the world for so long that a bunch of things are kind of new again."

>_

[E-Nazrin]

>... what is Keine, as far as we're aware?
>"Elixir...? Wait, maybe I should know this one. Legendary immortality elixir... Hourai Elixir?"

[Hello Purvis]

>... what is Keine, as far as we're aware?
>"Elixir...? Wait, maybe I should know this one. Legendary immortality elixir... Hourai Elixir?"

>You know she's a teacher and can do...something with history and time. You suspect she's a youkai as an extension of that.
>"That's the one," says Mokou. "Nasty stuff."

>_

[E-Nazrin]

>"Did it really taste bad enough to remember that so long?"
>... what? If she can make inappropriate jokes, so can we.
>"How has Keine been helping you, or should I be able to guess?"

[Hello Purvis]

>"Did it really taste bad enough to remember that so long?"
>... what? If she can make inappropriate jokes, so can we.
>"How has Keine been helping you, or should I be able to guess?"

>Mokou cuts off a laugh with a snort.
>You sure can!
>"You're a smart girl," says Mokou, "You can put it together."

>_

[E-Nazrin]

>"So, having someone you care about with you helps?"
>Obviously.
>"... is Keine a youkai? Does she have a much better memory for the past than you, even without explicitly studying it?"

[Hello Purvis]

>"So, having someone you care about with you helps?"
>Obviously.
>"... is Keine a youkai? Does she have a much better memory for the past than you, even without explicitly studying it?"

>She nods. "But, well, even that can let you down after awhile."
>"Kind of," says Mokou. "She's human most of the time. Til the moon gets full. Then she turns into a hakutaku."

>_

[E-Nazrin]

>"Even that can...!? I... would it be too much to ask for an example from your own past?"
>Slight disbelief.
>"So, Keine wouldn't be considered a 'natural' youkai, then?"

Tangential point - I don't know if Byakuren's enchantments will be unavailable of Maribel ends up a youkai through other means - especially if it's the psychologically healthier 'natural' process. Simply going TRUST TO LUCK and making plans to dive in if that humanity objection vanishes due to time and lifestyle might work, too.

[Hello Purvis]

>"Even that can...!? I... would it be too much to ask for an example from your own past?"
>Slight disbelief.
>"So, Keine wouldn't be considered a 'natural' youkai, then?"

>"You're probably gonna get pissed at me for saying this," says Mokou, putting the chair squarely back on the floor, "But, yeah, even that. Here's the thing. Love is one of those things that changes over time. Starts off passionate, cools over time into a stable sort of companionship, right? Thing is, it's also got that mindset of seventy to a hundred years in place. You see what I'm saying?"
>"Pretty sure Keine was born that way."

>_

[E-Nazrin]

>"What you're saying makes some sense, but I do want to know if it's actually happened - if it's let you down in the past."
>Slight guilt at how cold that statement was.
>"... and what about love among 'natural' youkai?"

[Hello Purvis]

>"What you're saying makes some sense, but I do want to know if it's actually happened - if it's let you down in the past."
>Slight guilt at how cold that statement was.
>"... and what about love among 'natural' youkai?"

>"Rather not get into that," says Mokou.
>Yeah, it feels like you're picking at an old wound.
>"That's a little different," says Mokou. "The people who are supposed to be youkai; natural's a good word for it; they're adapted to the lifespan. Their way of thinking and especially their feelings are suited for it for that span of time. You see what I'm saying, yeah?"

>_

[E-Nazrin]

>"... how difficult would it be to understand and adapt to that mindset on a personal level?"
>"And what would that mindset be like, for that matter?"

Always a loophole. Always.

[Hello Purvis]

>"... how difficult would it be to understand and adapt to that mindset on a personal level?"
>"And what would that mindset be like, for that matter?"

>"That's the hard part," says Mokou, frowning. "You don't know if you can until it's too late. You can try to mess with the way you think, plan of the scale of decades rather than years and stuff? But, it's not just thinking. It's feeling. You have to be able to feel on that kind of level, too, if you're going to make it as a youkai. See what I mean? If you can't...well...you're gonna have to cope somehow, and it's probably not going to be pretty. So at first, you might think you've done it. If you're anything like I was, it'd probably feel pretty damn good the first few decades. The you start to get to where you should be slowing down, where your mind gets ready to move on. And you can't. That's when it hits you. And you really don't know if you can until it happens. It's one thing to think you can, but you've not felt it."

[E-Nazrin]

>"I think understanding what would be necessary will help in deciding whether to try. Do you know any more specific details about how youkai usually think and feel to handle that scope? Or is it just being more able to think and feel over long periods of time?"
>"... but I may need to consider this more than I have so far."

>"Do you know if it's possible for humans to become youkai in a fashion similar to how animals become youkai? More naturally, that is?"

[Hello Purvis]

>"I think understanding what would be necessary will help in deciding whether to try. Do you know any more specific details about how youkai usually think and feel to handle that scope? Or is it just being more able to think and feel over long periods of time?"
>"... but I may need to consider this more than I have so far."

>"Do you know if it's possible for humans to become youkai in a fashion similar to how animals become youkai? More naturally, that is?"

>"It's hard to explain. It's like trying to explain why you love the taste of a certain kind of tofu, you know? Or why that deep blue on a summer sky right after a big storm looks so right. I can't say there's any real trick to it. Trying not to get attached to things not worth getting attached to helps."
>She nods. "Yeah. This isn't the kind of thing you're supposed to think about. Don't feel too bad."
>"It happens," says Mokou. "Magicians sometimes end up doing it without really meaning to. It just happens; you mess with things so much you just shift from one to the other. Might be some are born to have it happen"

>_

[E-Nazrin]

>The wonders of predestination.
>"How well do the humans that become youkai 'naturally' usually handle it?"

>"And... what sort of things would be 'not worth getting attached to?'"

[Hello Purvis]

>The wonders of predestination.
>"How well do the humans that become youkai 'naturally' usually handle it?"

>"And... what sort of things would be 'not worth getting attached to?'"

>Rubbish.
>Mokou frowns, looking toward the ceiling. "Well. Depends. Back in the day, it caused a problem, since youkai and bad thing were one and the same in the hearts of people. Nowadays? I dunno. Things have changed a bit."
>"Things you tend to make memories around, but won't be around in a half century," says Mokou. "Money. Jobs and positions. Stuff like that. You know that saying, "You can't take it with you"? Those kinds of things."

>_

[E-Nazrin]

>"Mostly out of curiosity, what did people think of you, if your immortality was more a technicality and avoided the youkai association?"
>... what WOULDN'T have changed substantially in half a century? Basically... just locations. Actually, on that note...
>"What about the youkai in that mansion by the lake? I'm... not sure how much of the stuff there would last that long. Aside from the mansion itself, I guess...?"

I'm running low on questions, if anyone would want to jump in with their own.

[Kilgamayan]

I have nothing to ask at this point, I've heard everything I wanted to hear.

I think I'm better left out of the practicality questions at this point anyway.

[Hello Purvis]

>"Mostly out of curiosity, what did people think of you, if your immortality was more a technicality and avoided the youkai association?"
>... what WOULDN'T have changed substantially in half a century? Basically... just locations. Actually, on that note...
>"What about the youkai in that mansion by the lake? I'm... not sure how much of the stuff there would last that long. Aside from the mansion itself, I guess...?"

>"Usually never told 'em," says Mokou. "I'd roam around, back when I cared to, stick around for a few years doing whatever, moved on. Didn't make attachments. Made it too hard to come back, you know?"
>You get the feeling that part may be tricky.
>"Never been there," says Mokou. "But I guess things like art might last if you take good care of them. Well, not prints and stuff, but you know."

>_

[E-Nazrin]

And to be honest a lot of what I'm asking now is more based on curiosity about how Gensokyo works or being pedantic than pushing for a specific position.

Anything to say on the "TRUST TO LUCK" idea?

And while I'm not going to buy "because humanness" on its own, I CAN accept valid implications of that, like what Mokou's going on about here. Feel free to suggest questions based on that, at least, if no one else brings it up.

>"That sounds like a terribly lonely existence."
>"Do... you think it might have worked if you segmented things out as a series of 'normal' lifespans? Or did you try that, and...?"
>Patchouli's books... but did the others have that sort of attachment? There was fancy stuff, yeah, but... hmm.
>"What do healthy youkai usually get attached to, then?"

[Kilgamayan]

Well, the love thing on its own pretty much seals the deal for me. If we take what Mokou says as truth (or at least very likely), choosing youkai status means actively choosing to eventually get tired of Renko.

Do you or anyone else think our Mari would make the choice to eventually get bored of Renko in the name of power?

[Hello Purvis]

>"That sounds like a terribly lonely existence."
>"Do... you think it might have worked if you segmented things out as a series of 'normal' lifespans? Or did you try that, and...?"
>Patchouli's books... but did the others have that sort of attachment? There was fancy stuff, yeah, but... hmm.
>"What do healthy youkai usually get attached to, then?"

>"Yeah." She says. "That's about right."
>"It builds up," says Mokou. "And life leaves you behind anyways. After awhile you just stop wanting to do it, you know?"
>You aren't sure if the others had attachments like that.
>"Well, it's about as varied as people, you know?"

>_

[communist unity (comm-unity)]

Well, the love thing on its own pretty much seals the deal for me. If we take what Mokou says as truth (or at least very likely), choosing youkai status means actively choosing to eventually get tired of Renko.

Do you or anyone else think our Mari would make the choice to eventually get bored of Renko in the name of power?

welp, I'm convinced. I don't think the second enchantment is such a great idea now. From what I gather, if it happens with the first one/naturally, it's not truly our fault so we stand less of a chance of 'getting tired'. While with the second one, we're intentionally forcing it on us, so we still have a 'human' mindset. meaning maribel's going to get tired of renko in a good 100 years or so.

[E-Nazrin]

>"Could I have some examples, at least? I can guess that Keine is interested in history, which is... abstract enough to fit, but I'm not sure what else would be realistic."

Suggest: "... in particular, are there any that have a lasting attachment to another youkai?"

Well, the love thing on its own pretty much seals the deal for me. If we take what Mokou says as truth (or at least very likely), choosing youkai status means actively choosing to eventually get tired of Renko.

Do you or anyone else think our Mari would make the choice to eventually get bored of Renko in the name of power?

Not put like that, no. But I prefer to interpret it as meaning that going through with it would be strictly conditional to having Renko along for the ride, preferably with an understanding between them of that possibility in a few decades. And while I can see the difficulties that come from dealing with a long lifespan, embracing those moments of happiness as they come and go sounds plausible. Embrace the now, but not for forever.

Of course, I'm also of the mindset that an important caveat would be making sure it's not IMPOSSIBLE to die if things go too far awry, but...

Yeah. Still liking the blow it off/trust to luck route.

[Hello Purvis]

>"Could I have some examples, at least? I can guess that Keine is interested in history, which is... abstract enough to fit, but I'm not sure what else would be realistic."

>"Okay. This is kinda where I'm stuck by not knowing all that many people you'd know that well," says Mokou frowning as she leans her elbows on the teacher's desk. "So lemme think...Loyalty to other youkai happens. Not romance, though it happens, just...service. Kinda military like, you know? Putting your faith in them, and they put theirs in you. I've seen others give themselves over to some great work. Knowledge works for some. I even saw a nyuudou once who was doing his best to achieve nirvana. Others just sort of drift through, not making real attachments, taking it day by day. Not everyone can do that and be happy, though. Hell, I don't think most people could. I sure as hell couldn't for long."

>_

[Kilgamayan]

Just to put it out there for maximum clarity, this is what I am reading as the "TRUST TO LUCK" proposal.

Whenever we decide we're ready for this thing, we would be gambling that we will avoid:

- Getting tired/bored of Renko
- Getting tired/bored of pretty much everything else we currently hold dear
- Losing our mind
- Prejudice and distrust
- A lifestyle attitude similar to Alice and Pathcouli
- A large karmic hit

In the name of

- Getting more power, presumably in the interest of research and/or altruism, for however long those tickle our fancy

Is this accurate, or am I missing the big picture?

Fake edit: Of course we're assuming Renko goes along for the ride, but that doesn't belay the issue that we'd eventually get tired of her, and her tired of us. (Theroetically.) Retaining humanity means that won't happen. (Theroetically.)

[E-Nazrin]

>"... not romance."
>"Then... why is there a youkai love triangle in the Underground?"

Suggest: "... I don't want to have to have that sort of relationship with Renko to stay with her."

Fake edit: Of course we're assuming Renko goes along for the ride, but that doesn't belay the issue that we'd eventually get tired of her, and her tired of us. (Theroetically.) Retaining humanity means that won't happen. (Theroetically.)

pfffahahahahahahahahahaha

okay

Okay. Yeah, you're roughly right on those basically being the tradeoff, though I'd put it more as 'more likely' than thinking there's anything resembling a guarantee.

But I'm not sure I've been clear about what I'm trying to say by the TRUST TO LUCK proposal - that is, not getting either enchantment and living with Renko for now without worrying about youkaihood unless it happens on its own through what they do with their lives. At that point, if the notion of saving one's humanity no longer makes a difference because it's no longer an issue, then it would probably be okay to get the enchantment.

Basically, further separating the issues of "becoming a youkai" vs. "getting the most out of the one self-enchantment we can get," with the Quest-level conclusion of "no enchantment at all but open to it if the future leads to natural youkaidom from whatever magic we DO do."

[Hello Purvis]

>"... not romance."
>"Then... why is there a youkai love triangle in the Underground?"

>"I wasn't saying that didn't happen," says Mokou. "Just expressing how that loyalty thing seems to work."

>_

[Kilgamayan]

If the youkai thing happens naturally through the course of life, then that's different. Let it come as it may; it will (Theroetically.) come when we're ready for it, or at least when we're more ready for it than we are right now.