Maribel Quest More - A Z-Machine Adventure

[Kilgamayan]

But if that were the case, why would she flat-out tell us we'd take a major hit? I can't imagine she would say such a thing lightly.

[DracoOmega]

I imagine she firmly believes that's the case. But that doesn't mean it's an objective truth, if karma itself cannot be directly measured by most people.

Compare it to asking a priest whether something is grave sin or not. You'll get rough agreement on a lot of issues, but some substantial personal differences on the severity of a few particular 'sins'. And it's not like you can just pull out the sin-o-meter and check after you do it to see who was right.

And even in Byakuren's view (which was the most dire of any npc's viewpoint), it can be repaired over time.

[E-Nazrin]

- Byakuren may very well have become what she is due to the karmic hit. I'm pretty sure she talks about the karmic hit the way she does because she speaks from experience. We've talked to others and received conflicting reports on the hit, but how many of them went through the same process? We know Patchy didn't, because she admitted as much, and we haven't talked to anyone  else that's made the jump about making the jump.

Or about the downsides involved.

I can actually respect the decision of not getting any enchantment at all at this point - it leaves all the options open and further emphasizes many of Kilga's concerns (meta or otherwise). Byakuren also said that she wasn't sure whether the first enchantment would leave Mary human, either - that one could go either way. All-or-nothing isn't often the best way to think of things, but I think those two are the better options at this point.

I also like putting off big decisions. Can you tell?

Jumping into it on the first day in Gensokyo is probably rather hasty, even if there's some obvious gameplay-based time dilation going on here. There's a good number of reasons to just put it off for a month to settle in and adjust before making another huge change - the only really pressing thing is making sure the SDM/Alice fiasco goes well.

I think someone saying it would take adjusting to is an inevitable reaction, whether it bothered them or not. It's a visible change, and of course that takes adjusting to. Maribel would need to adjust herself (this is even assuming the size difference ends up being enough to matter. Byakuren did say it would be smaller than her own). For that matter, people need to take time to adjust to most changes. Things are neither positive or negative because they require adjustment. A new job requires adjustment.

On the other hand, anticipation of a positive change would be more likely accompanied with something like "Cool!" or "So when are you going to do this?" On the other other hand, people aren't always good about predicting what they'll like or not. But I do believe that it's more likely Renko would ultimately end up disliking being smaller than Mary than not between her tone and choice of words.

Again, more information would be nice. (And I'm impressed none of us have tried to bring up the youkai vs. human lifespan issue yet!)

I get the impression 'karma' is a nebulous thing. It's not something you can feel, or measure through most means (outside of maybe the Yama, etc.) Byakuren said that becoming a youkai through any means at all incurs such a hit. Patchouli seemed to think that was nonsense entirely. I think that probably has more to do with Byakuren's religious beliefs than a necessary objective truth about how the world works.

I honestly considered asking Komachi if she has any idea how that works. I mean, she's not the one who calls the shots, but she works for the one who does.

A lot of rules are broken in Gensokyo. That there's an afterlife at all means that there's SOME sort of system to it that's likely to have real consequences. Is Byakuren's interpretation right? How much would Komachi know, or be willing/able to share? I don't know. But you can't discard these things entirely.

For what it's worth, I doubt large-scale karmic retribution in this life is a likely consequence, but it might be worth investigating.

But if that were the case, why would she flat-out tell us we'd take a major hit? I can't imagine she would say such a thing lightly.

Then why is she also willing to help us with it? She seems to accept that there's disagreements about interpretations of karma, in importance, relevance, and causes... was it Mary that brought up the idea in the first place? I get the impression she's just honest and serious to a fault, and believes that it could be a net good if Mary follows a similar path - but wants to make sure that she understands the consequences of it better than Byakuren did at first.

Tangential meta-concern: Maybe I'm just being paranoid, but sometimes I wonder if Purvis is giving Byakuren more sinister motives behind the scenes ={

And even in Byakuren's view (which was the most dire of any npc's viewpoint), it can be repaired over time.

This is actually the most telling thing for me about youkai-or-not decision-making - I'm not seeing any reasonably objective downsides to it (aside from the possibility of being distanced from Renko). But that might be from not looking for them.

[Kilgamayan]

If she firmly believes it's the case, then again, I imagine that is due to personal experience, unless you think she's just making it up to scare us away. I'm not a fan of "we'll get over it eventually" as a solution to bad karma, either.

Whatever the case, I think we can make a more educated decision by talked to more people that have gone through it themselves. It's hard to make a decision when we only have the one reference point. Keine would be an ideal person to ask. Marisa and Sanae would probably be good too, given they haven't transformed yet for some reason. Possibly Mokou. And then there's Alice, who would put up a fight but could be a valuable source nonetheless.

[DracoOmega]

If she firmly believes it's the case, then again, I imagine that is due to personal experience, unless you think she's just making it up to scare us away. I'm not a fan of "we'll get over it eventually" as a solution to bad karma, either.

I think she's taking it on faith. I don't think even she has an objective way to measure it. And she seemed to think that working to make up for it is a normal thing, and may even be a net benefit. I don't think she'd offer, otherwise.

For what it's worth, Yuyuko, who ought to know about how these afterlife things work out better than most, said that Byakuren was too serious. It wasn't specifically on this subject, though, so take that as you will.

[Kilgamayan]

We also don't know which Byakuren she said that of, I don't think.

Are there any objections to running around and asking more people? Hell, to be honest at this point I'd rather put it off a day than jump into the wrong decision.

[DracoOmega]

My main objection to asking other people is largely a matter of in-game time.
Although, to be honest, how much would it change. Let's say they all say that there's no karmic penalty. Would that honestly affect your choice?

[E-Nazrin]

Whatever the case, I think we can make a more educated decision by talked to more people that have gone through it themselves. It's hard to make a decision when we only have the one reference point. Keine would be an ideal person to ask. Marisa and Sanae would probably be good too, given they haven't transformed yet for some reason. Possibly Mokou. And then there's Alice, who would put up a fight but could be a valuable source nonetheless.

So basically, put it off for another day or two? :V

I can buy confirmation bias as the real source of Byakuren's karma claims. Doesn't mean it is, though - it's worth being careful of if we can swing it. And while I think working it off is a much better way of looking at it than "waiting" it off, it's most likely that any genuine karma effects would be greatest immediately after becoming a youkai - which is the main time where it would matter right now.

We CAN back out of this with Renko (for now) by saying that it'd be more impressive to do what we can as we are at least until we've got a better idea of the way things work, and having/claiming faith that she'll be okay either way for tomorrow (either from Alice not attacking or us intervening under our own power - or mush-potion power, whichever).

I also want more information before making a hard decision on this - but based on what we have, I definitely favor the stronger enchantment when/if we get one. Like I said, if we do the youkai thing, I wanna do it properly.

[Kilgamayan]

It still wouldn't affect my choice, because the things I've been arguing are what I feel are the in-character reasons for not doing this while my main reason for not doing this is rooted in the storytelling. If that happened, though, I would resign myself to not being able to sway anyone and simply bow out of the game entirely instead.

[E-Nazrin]

Let's say they all say that there's no karmic penalty.

Let's say there are other, more objective consequences, like half the human village hating you, inexplicable desires for human flesh, psychological dullness, or turning into Yukari. What about you?

We can't make any strict claims on that since we simply don't know, in or out of character. In-character, being from the outside world gives Mary an excuse to be skeptical, but I expect she'd also be mindful of what rules are different now. I think the karmic part is a minor point - that's tough to pin down and can go either way in this. It's stuff like the youkai that are so eager to have more around that I'm suspicious about.

[Kilgamayan]

Also, for the record, Byakuren also mentioned a loss of trustworthiness as another drawback. This was pretty evident in Reisen Quest, when people took Reimu's side on the UFO dealie simply because they didn't trust Byakuren for whatever reason.

[DracoOmega]

Let's say there are other, more objective consequences, like half the human village hating you, inexplicable desires for human flesh, psychological dullness, or turning into Yukari. What about you?

Patchouli mentioned that the 'hunger for human flesh' was largely an animal youkai trait, and not something that affected magicians. She said, at worst, we would find ourselves more driven in our pursuit of knowledge and magic. Ok, she might have said 'obsessive', but still.

And the human village clearly doesn't have much of a problem with them if youkai go to school there on a regular basis.

Also, for the record, Byakuren also mentioned a loss of trustworthiness as another drawback. This was pretty evident in Reisen Quest, when people took Reimu's side on the UFO dealie simply because they didn't trust Byakuren for whatever reason.

How many people took Reimu's side there, other than Suika, anyway?
And even then, it was less about Byakuren and more about the UFO sightings. I think even Reimu was willing to say that it was Byakuren's followers, and not Byakuren herself doing it.

[Kilgamayan]

The people they distrusted were still the youkai instead of the human and the oni.

[Kilgamayan]

And I'm thinking Tenshi and Alice, at the very least, for people that supported Reimu, noting that Alice has done the human -> youkai thing herself.

[E-Nazrin]

Patchouli mentioned that the 'hunger for human flesh' was largely an animal youkai trait, and not something that affected magicians. She said, at worst, we would find ourselves more driven in our pursuit of knowledge and magic. Ok, she might have said 'obsessive', but still.

Yeah, exaggerated rhetorical examples. But I'm inclined to believe there's a very real catch we haven't heard yet. I just don't know what it is. (Though turning into Yukari is my best guess :V)

And the human village clearly doesn't have much of a problem with them if youkai go to school there on a regular basis.

Because they trust youkai in general, or because Keine checked them out and said they're okay so they don't have grounds to object publicly even if they don't like it? Racism doesn't go away just because it's publicly unfashionable - look at the US, for crissakes.

The people they distrusted were still the youkai instead of the human and the oni.

To be fair, Byakuren's crew was also new/unfamiliar and the only ones directly related to the source of the conflict (the presence of the UFOs). Anyone unfamiliar isn't trusted much - that could be from race OR familiarity, and may not say too much.

But I'm still inclined to believe that the human village is still pretty wary, between real-world racism parallels and the roundabout counterexample we met in the oni crone.

[DracoOmega]

Ok, I'm willing to admit there may be some racism left. But I don't think it's terribly widespread. Remember, Shou has a store in town, Tenshi runs a bar, and there are youkai in and out of the place all the time. I hardly think the fact that the occasional person might not like us ought to matter much.

As for catches, I suspect Byakuren is being as fully honest as she knows, and she mentioned no behavioral catches at all. Even when we asked for a comprehensive list of provisos.

(And is turning into Yukari such a bad thing? )

[Kilgamayan]

There is the behavioral catch in losing trustworthiness, though, as mentioned by Byakuren. I don't have a citation handy, but I asked Purvis about this and he mentioned it.

[E-Nazrin]

On a meta-level, we're also aware that Byakuren may be somewhat out of date about the full nuances of human-youkai relations after spending a thousand years sealed up - that might weigh into how much stock to put into what she said about that. Was it worse or better then, and how much has she adjusted from what she's seen since being released? And I wonder how much bias she has in the matter, whether she tries to fight it or not?

I hardly think the fact that the occasional person might not like us ought to matter much.

This is a fair point. It's pretty much impossible to please everyone. But I think humans might get less prejudice than youkai - the oni were willing to leave us alone after getting staved off once, and the human village is obvious, but youkai mountain/the tengu/Moriya Shrine let in followers rather than favoring youkai. I don't think I've heard of any places that specifically claimed to be friendly to youkai. It IS a net advantage to give up, even if it's a small one.

While Renko DOES claim not to care, again, she might not understand it in full. She hasn't heard all we have about youkaidom's ups and downs.

As for catches, I suspect Byakuren is being as fully honest as she knows, and she mentioned no behavioral catches at all. Even when we asked for a comprehensive list of provisos.

Key phrase: As she knows.

(And is turning into Yukari such a bad thing? )

If it causes a time paradox or war for Gensokyo then yes :V

Gonna try and write up a more comprehensive point hang on

[DracoOmega]

This is a fair point. It's pretty much impossible to please everyone. But I think humans might get less prejudice than youkai - the oni were willing to leave us alone after getting staved off once, and the human village is obvious, but youkai mountain/the tengu/Moriya Shrine let in followers rather than favoring youkai. I don't think I've heard of any places that specifically claimed to be friendly to youkai. It IS a net advantage to give up, even if it's a small one.

Actually, I got the distinct impression that being a HUMAN was the problem with the oni. If we'd been a youkai, there would have been no issue in the first place.

[Kilgamayan]

I don't think the oni have an actual problem with humans. They just seem to see the chase as a game, and when a human bests them, they acknowledge and respect it.

Also, calling my dark-horse solution theory: the second enhancement opportunity is the test Byakuren is subjecting us to to make sure we're trustworthy enough for the first.

[DracoOmega]

I didn't say they had a problem as such. But Satori was pretty clear that if we'd lost, we'd be a prisoner. Maybe for good. I was just pointing out that this probably is an example of a place that's more friendly to youkai than humans, and that such places do exist.

Also, calling my dark-horse solution theory: the second enhancement opportunity is the test Byakuren is subjecting us to to make sure we're trustworthy enough for the first.

While this sort of thing does crop up in fiction a fair bit, I admit, Byakuren was quite explicit that she felt comfortable we would not abuse either choice, and would support our decision. Do you really think someone like her would lie to brazenly?

[Kilgamayan]

Perhaps, for the purposes of storytelling. <_<

[Kilgamayan]

Well, someone has to take the initiative, I guess.

> "Okay, I'm taking off. I should be back sometime tonight. I'll let you know then what I've decided."
> Give Renko a parting hug.
> Leave the tent and head toward the human village in search of Keine.

[Hello Purvis]

Well, someone has to take the initiative, I guess.

> "Okay, I'm taking off. I should be back sometime tonight. I'll let you know then what I've decided."
> Give Renko a parting hug.
> Leave the tent and head toward the human village in search of Keine.

>You tell Renko you're going to leave and give her a parting hug. "Okay, I'll be here," she says. "Love you."
>You get dressed; you're pretty sure even the faeries would give you weird looks if you didn't, and head for the human village. The camp has quieted down a lot, but you think a lot of them are still flying overhead. It's too dark to see properly.
>You fly toward the human village again. You're not sure where Keine is, but you notice lights are on on the upper floor of the schoolhouse.

>_

[E-Nazrin]

I think we might be dancing around the real issue - that the problem is whether to take an enchantment NOW, more than which one to take. The opportunity won't go away until we take one. Which to take is secondary to whether to get one right now - to be better prepared for the SDM invasion.

How much does Mary need that, in light of the other potential risks and downsides?

There's two parts to consider for that, too - how likely is it that the enchantment's difference will be necessary or helpful for tomorrow, and how will the long-term consequences pan out?

We haven't looked at the first one.

There are two (and a half) ways the SDM invasion could go awry in a way that matters to Mary - either the SDM residents or Renko get unreasonable in their fighting or demands leading to a need to intervene, or a third party entering the mix and throwing the whole thing into chaos (i.e. Alice).
---
I don't think it's entirely likely that Alice will try to attack the mansion, to finish off Renko or otherwise. She discarded the idea of assisting with the attack as soon as Renko said she wasn't planning to loot the place anymore, and seemed more concerned with the idea of blackmail than the opportunity to bring Renko down/rob the mansion. Does she even know whether the attack is still on?

I think Alice was roughly satisfied with threatening Mary and Renko's sight if they spread word of her planned involvement. If anything, I expect we'd have given her the idea of invading on her own by insisting on adding that to the contract. She might be watching like a vulture in case everyone gets completely worn out, but unless the fight goes to a standstill with no real challengers, I'm not sure she'll try to intervene.

... maybe if we had something specifically to counteract Alice...

Even if she does interfere, then her motives are a lot less benign - if we could make her slip up on why she joins in the battle, then having both the SDM and fairy mob turn on her after getting worn out on each other would be absolutely delightful. And she'd wait until that point to attack, wouldn't she? Unless she went straight for Mary for emotional blackmail, which would distract Renko from the fight... but the results of the SDM attack are secondary in the end, and we have one or two tricks up our sleeve. Would Alice be expecting Mary's World to escape a kidnapping?
---
I'm not as sure about the chances of Renko or the SDM getting unreasonable. Renko would be pretty easy to reign in (hence only counting as half an issue), but Sakuya said that Renko would be shown as much mercy as she deserved - or something like that. Vaguely threatening, but not completely. And again, Sakuya doesn't sound like a complete tyrant. Temperamental at the moment, scary as hell, not very nice, but not a complete dick, either. We haven't heard anything about Remilia being vengeful; more proud and selfish. I don't know if she'd make a point of really hurting Renko if the invasion failed.

I think this one would hinge on whether they'd feel any sympathy after winning if Maribel made a plea for them to not be complete dicks - if it even comes to that.

Basically, this is only an issue if the invasion fails, Alice doesn't intervene, and the SDM demands unrealistic compensation for it. It's the worst-case scenario, in which case Mary would basically be taking on the entire SDM for being unfair after winning the fight. I'm... not sure even Byakuren-style strength and the potion would be enough for that.

... on the other hand, who says we'd have to make them pay immediately? I expect the SDM would be willing to delay an unreasonable swift and immediate disproportionate punishment (death, blinding, dismemberment, etc) if Mary offered to do something for it. Whether we actually do that or go off to go xyber huge to take them down would depend on how reasonable or noble their request is.

(Tangent: It would only be fair to make sure the SDM residents get enough food to live on even if the pantry gets raided, through our help or otherwise. We have no idea whether that would be an issue, but if it would be...)
---

In short - there are relatively few scenarios where the power boost would be directly and significantly relevant for the fight and aftermath. Only, really, if Alice tries to go after Maribel, or the SDM's retribution is disproportionate. In the former case, I think we might be able to take Alice on with just the potion and a little trickery, and/or the help of some of the others involved (which probably wouldn't be too difficult to sway). In the latter... I think we'd be in trouble strength-wise regardless (especially without the help of the items Renko'd use during the fight), and I'm not sure how likely it is to get that bad - staving off Renko's looting would be worth something to them, and maybe staying out of the fight. Not as much helping her get items to use for it, but would they be able to know that? Rinnosuke doesn't ask or answer many questions, after all...

... a lot of this is guesswork, but we need to take into account how important it is to actually do this for tomorrow, regardless of which enchantment is taken. I still favor getting the full-blown one if/when (more likely when) we get one, but I'm not sure it should be done tonight. There are many possibilities that would avoid the need - Renko wins in the first place or the SDM is noble or at least reasonable in victory; Alice diverts the entire fight having to deal with Mary and anyone still standing on either side, or Alice doesn't show up at all. Those that do are of uncertain necessity - taking on the entire SDM after the dust settles might simply be suicidal regardless, and there are ways to circumvent Alice.

Do we need the enchantment tonight?

[Kilgamayan]

I was leaving that one out of the discussion because it's far simpler. Alice is my only concern, as I think the SDM will back down from trying to go overkill. They don't have the personnel to pursue vicious vendettas, even if they wanted to. If we're not worried about Alice, either because we think she won't show up at all, or because we expect we could take her down as we are now, then no, we do not need to make a decision tonight.

[Kilgamayan]

Of course, if you're also of the mind that Maribel should get the second one, then I'm fucked regardless, so...

> Is there any obvious way to politely get the attention of someone that might be in the schoolhouse? A doorbell, perhaps?

[Hello Purvis]

>Looking around, you notice a little bell by the door.

[Kilgamayan]

> Gently ring the bell. Enough that it can be heard, but don't go nuts.

Before I do much of anything else, I suppose I should put the question forth: if we ask several people that either have had or may have a stake in human-to-youkai transformations, and they all either tell us horror stories or generally warn against it, will any of you actually change your minds?

[DracoOmega]

I'm really not expecting horror-stories, but I suppose it's at least theoretically possible for me to change my mind depending on exactly what is said