Author Topic: Labyrinth of Touhou 4F (Read 241669 times)

Bananamatic · « **Reply #690 on:** July 20, 2010, 08:06:50 PM »

Kimontonkou has only 1% delay so...the only limit is her SP early on :V

Yeah, using a character for 18 floors seems "trying out" enough for me.

18F's single target is a direct upgrade from Spear, his speed and defence are good enough, his buffs allows early 20F/30F grinding and has a pretty good nature nuke as an addition so he can help out even against randoms.
Elder Dragon Jewel solves the recovery problem.

1st slot is usually China or 18F if I need to rush(Kedamagrammaton, Shiki, 30F), second is Reimu(she's durable enough to take most attacks), third either Ran if I need to buff or Kaguya/16F for extra turns and fourth is usually a nuker.

Yeah, I'll say it directly, single target healers suck balls. Reimu is all I ever needed.

Shiki can also be in the 3rd slot for stuff like 30F.

RainfallYoshi · « **Reply #691 on:** July 20, 2010, 08:19:30 PM »

Minoriko cries from that Banana. :V

It's pretty much preference when it comes to healing though so yeah, I won't gripe any. I will say that Minoriko is MAGIC TANK++ though.

Parallaxal · « **Reply #692 on:** July 20, 2010, 08:21:19 PM »

Eh, personally I do perfectly fine with Minoriko. She was my main healer for most of the Plus Disk, including staying in full-time against the Touhou character bosses of 21F, 24F, and 26F (except for the last phase of the battle). And to demonstrate how comfortable I am with her main healing, here's Team Unappreciated vs. 18F:
Part 1:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FEkKG7giHTM
Part 2:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oWLmlGKpATY
And just to spite Reimu, she gets to sit in at level 1.

Bananamatic · « **Reply #693 on:** July 20, 2010, 08:22:33 PM »

I used Sanae, but she only got to buff before Ran could do that well enough.
Never needed that heal, the person could be easily switched out for a while or the entire party needed to be healed.

Quote from: Parallaxal on July 20, 2010, 08:21:19 PM

here's Team Unappreciated vs. 18F:
Part 1:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FEkKG7giHTM
Part 2:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oWLmlGKpATY
And just to spite Reimu, she gets to sit in at level 1.

Well, there go 20 minutes or however long it is. be right back lol

Pesco · « **Reply #694 on:** July 20, 2010, 08:24:37 PM »

Rumia is the healer for Plus Disk!!

Oh wait, it's a Team (9) run

Somebody motivate me to do a whole new run. 7F and 13F are kinda putting me off >_>

Serela · « **Reply #695 on:** July 20, 2010, 08:43:56 PM »

Aww, 7F isn't THAT bad... although yeah, it is kinda annoying.

13F is arduous, but if you just wiki up the numbers for events and treasures, the rest is skippable. Figuring out combinations myself the first time was actually really fun with the clues and all, but that's not a floor I ever want to do again. And I'm about to reach it in my 3rd play now, actually...

IMO 18F is one of the most grueling floors, NO YOU CAN'T GO BACK ONCE YOU EXPLORE THAT BRANCH JUST LEAVE TO GENSOKYO AND WALK ALL THE WAY THERE AGAIN

Bananamatic · « **Reply #696 on:** July 20, 2010, 08:45:13 PM »

watched the entire fight

your level looks fine, I was there at Reimu lv101 and everyone else lagging 7-15 levels behind

I'll say it again, the new bgms are really bad

the last thing I want after being a rabid touhoufag for 9 months is more remixes
and the last thing after 500+ attempts on all last words together is a last word theme(which sucked to begin with) remix for the boss with one of the best battle BGMs in the game.
unfortunately, we got both

The original music was better than ZUN's touhou music tbh
the only better track from the new selection is the plus disk boss theme.
Which is the original track of that one anyways? Can't hear any touhou music in there.

Garlyle · « **Reply #697 on:** July 20, 2010, 08:50:42 PM »

Quote from: NeoSerela on July 20, 2010, 06:45:43 PM

tried to fight Sanae's foe

Went well for awhile, then accidently got my last 3 non-Meiling people swept by a Flowing hellfire (miscounted?)

well Meiling had 51 SP, and was guarenteed to die in a turn or two, figured I might as well use mountain breaker twice for measly less-then-2k-damage

http://puu.sh/3v2

what the fuck.

You know I'm pretty sure there was at least two bosses in the game which I finished off by stalling them to death with Meiling and very slowly whittling down their HP via Mountain Breaker.

Also, I'm trying something new with the character pages. The big things to note are that the formulas are now calculated out - no more x((a ATK + b MAG) - (c DEF)) ugliness - just pure, calculated percentages for you (I really hope this doesn't turn out to be horribly incorrect somehow). Also I'm going to try to unify the stat change displays and correct them according to the Database (Remilia's in particular were significantly off), along with delay times and stuff, which have almost all been right so far (Earth Light Ray is actually the same delay as Magic Missile, it turns out). Tell me if it looks terrible.

Oh, and the new summaries are on the pages for the first character group, at least; group 2's summaries were editted up a bit, and 3-5 are now written up and awaiting critique, if you guys wouldn't mind.

Quote

Warning - while you were typing 6 new replies have been posted. You may wish to review your post.

Jesus christ guys what the fuck

Serela · « **Reply #698 on:** July 20, 2010, 08:56:12 PM »

Quote from: Garlyle on July 20, 2010, 08:50:42 PM

You know I'm pretty sure there was at least two bosses in the game which I finished off by stalling them to death with Meiling and very slowly whittling down their HP via Mountain Breaker.

I did this to the 22F boss the first time I saw it, actually.

But the difference here is that Meiling simply would not have lived more then a turn or two after everyone else died

Plus her damage is comparatively a lot worse then when I soloed 22F boss with her.

reading character descriptions you wrote

Bananamatic · « **Reply #699 on:** July 20, 2010, 08:57:16 PM »

yeah, the descriptions seem more readable than that mess of math :V

Parallaxal · « **Reply #700 on:** July 20, 2010, 08:58:14 PM »

Quote from: Bananamatic on July 20, 2010, 08:45:13 PM

your level looks fine, I was there at Reimu lv101 and everyone else lagging 7-15 levels behind

My levels look a lot higher than they actually are, as my team has high level up rates. Rumia and Minoriko both level up faster than Reimu, actually; if I were using Reimu, she'd be maybe level 93 at this point.

Serela · « **Reply #701 on:** July 20, 2010, 09:05:36 PM »

I really, really dislike the new format for damage on the wiki ;_;

It's a lot less intuitive IMO, since the numbers for DEF/MND vary. Beforehand, you could easily gauge how well an attack pierced defense/overall damage, now it's, gah. It may be easier to input into a calculator, but IMO it's a lot harder to just glance at the formula and see how it is.

I'm also worried that this format might not give correct damage results, but I don't feel like checking that at all.

Garlyle · « **Reply #702 on:** July 20, 2010, 09:09:55 PM »

Quote from: NeoSerela on July 20, 2010, 09:05:36 PM

It's a lot less intuitive IMO, since the numbers for DEF/MND vary. Beforehand, you could easily gauge how well an attack pierced defense/overall damage, now it's, gah.

Well, that's just it. Having two separate multipliers you have to combine is really irritating when trying to see how much it -actually- pierces defense. You can get a quick picture of which is actually factoring in the defenses more here when comparing multiple attacks, which really matters for characters like Patchouli who have their formulas all over the place.
If it's really ugly, I'll change it back, but I find that it's easier to read (x - y) than a(b - c).

And yes it's the same. a(b - c) is the same as (ab - ac), mathematically speaking, I remember that much at least.

Quote

I'm also worried that this format might not give correct damage results, but I don't feel like checking that at all.

That's the something I'm slightly worried about too. There's a chance that the basic formula is -not- actually a(b - c) in which case, this will be inaccurate - but the previous formula would've been inaccurate too.

Parallaxal · « **Reply #703 on:** July 20, 2010, 09:27:45 PM »

I like the new formula layout, Garlyle, as it is easier to not have to multiply out the parts. If you'd like, I can go ahead and do likewise for the other character pages first.

Garlyle · « **Reply #704 on:** July 20, 2010, 09:31:24 PM »

Quote from: Parallaxal on July 20, 2010, 09:27:45 PM

I like the new formula layout, Garlyle, as it is easier to not have to multiply out the parts. If you'd like, I can go ahead and do likewise for the other character pages first.

I'll probably be going in to do it myself, as I want to double check everything with the info in the database as I go. Especially the further I get, since the database includes stuff like the delay values, which seem to get less and less certain the farther you get. ...Also I want to make sure that people actually like it, first.

Esoterica · « **Reply #705 on:** July 21, 2010, 01:30:09 AM »

I don't see why people don't use Orin against bosses. She's fast, Blazing Wheel hits like a traffic accident from hell, she can poison while simultaneously debuffing defense, and Cat's Walk allows her to deal small-yet-noticeable damage while easily manipulating the delay bar (i.e. running down debuffs quickly, getting a buffer's active bar filled before swapping in Flandre, switching in someone else immediately after a boss attacks, etc). Aside from how fragile she is, she's easily one of the most useful and versatile characters on my team.

Ghaleon · « **Reply #706 on:** July 21, 2010, 01:36:16 AM »

New format is an improvement IMO. Though it takes getting used to.

While the numbers make you think "wtf that's not the same" they really are. I'm curious, what were the typo's regarding remi's stats?

Garlyle · « **Reply #707 on:** July 21, 2010, 02:15:01 AM »

Quote from: Ghaleon on July 21, 2010, 01:36:16 AM

New format is an improvement IMO. Though it takes getting used to.

While the numbers make you think "wtf that's not the same" they really are. I'm curious, what were the typo's regarding remi's stats?

To be specific on what wasn't matching with the wiki...

Evil Sealing Circle: It said the PAR strength was 38. It's actually 45 (Yeah I know big difference right 8D)
Earth Light Ray: After-use delay was 45%. It's 50%
Master Spark: The damage formula was off. According to the database, it's 700% MAG base, and rises by 1/10th (70% MAG and 5% T.MND) for every additional 160, up to a total of 1400%. It was previously written as an 800% base and capping off at 1160 MP / 1600% MAG for some reason, probably because of the difference between what was written and what's actually going on with it (Lol Overaccurate Translation)
Curse of Vlad Tepes: I believe it said it only boosted Remilia's stats by 40%, but it was actually a 60%.

Fairly minor things at the moment, but if I do dig up something significantly different from what was written, I'll be sure to notify you guys.

Parallaxal · « **Reply #708 on:** July 21, 2010, 02:17:58 AM »

Oh, definitely do tell if you find something else that's different. Just like with Iku's Thundercloud Strickleback, these changes could mean a big difference in the evaluation of some characters.

Serela · « **Reply #709 on:** July 21, 2010, 06:23:00 AM »

12F boss

VIP:Meiling tanks and heals, MND minoriko easy healz, Reimu healbuffs, MND Iku takes lolnodamage while buffing Patch, Patch kills everything with buffed Flare while taking 0 damage

Secondary peeps:Wriggle for PSN helps a great bit, Youmu multihits and speedbuffers speed it up a bit, Rumia if you get debuffed is nice, CirnoPAR is nice

make sure Patch's equips include a little SP+

and then Eientei was lol easy as long as you don't get a random partykillernuke; no deaths and no trouble at all, the first time I tried this strategy

MysTeariousYukari · « **Reply #710 on:** July 21, 2010, 06:32:20 AM »

Quote from: NeoSerela on July 21, 2010, 06:23:00 AM

12F boss

VIP:Meiling tanks and heals, MND minoriko easy healz, Reimu healbuffs, MND Iku takes lolnodamage while buffing Patch, Patch kills everything with buffed Flare while taking 0 damage

Secondary peeps:Wriggle for PSN helps a great bit, Youmu multihits and speedbuffers speed it up a bit, Rumia if you get debuffed is nice, CirnoPAR is nice

make sure Patch's equips include a little SP+

and then Eientei was Ha ha, old chap! easy as long as you don't get a random partykillernuke; no deaths and no trouble at all, the first time I tried this strategy

Soooo... 12f got freaking owned? I never like Iku or Minoriko tbh. I can see their usage clearly, but it doesn't fit with my party sadly.

Esoterica · « **Reply #711 on:** July 21, 2010, 06:51:38 AM »

Quote from: MysteariousYukari on July 21, 2010, 06:32:20 AM

Soooo... 12f got freaking owned? I never like Iku or Minoriko tbh. I can see their usage clearly, but it doesn't fit with my party sadly.

I still prefer Sanae to minoriko for firepower, buffs, and ailment removal. Iku I really like, but can't find a good spot on the team for.

EDIT: Okay, after plopping her on the team for a few random battles I can already tell it's been stupid of me to not be putting her on the team. Even if she just throws a Stickleback on herself at around level 88 with no +mag equips she hits in the 80k range. And that's assuming I don't have her buff Youmu or Flan...holy crap.

Esoterica · « **Reply #712 on:** July 21, 2010, 07:15:22 AM »

Quote from: Garlyle on July 21, 2010, 02:15:01 AM

To be specific on what wasn't matching with the wiki...

Evil Sealing Circle: It said the PAR strength was 38. It's actually 45 (Yeah I know big difference right 8D)
Earth Light Ray: After-use delay was 45%. It's 50%
Master Spark: The damage formula was off. According to the database, it's 700% MAG base, and rises by 1/10th (70% MAG and 5% T.MND) for every additional 160, up to a total of 1400%. It was previously written as an 800% base and capping off at 1160 MP / 1600% MAG for some reason, probably because of the difference between what was written and what's actually going on with it (Ha ha, old chap! Overaccurate Translation)
Curse of Vlad Tepes: I believe it said it only boosted Remilia's stats by 40%, but it was actually a 60%.

Fairly minor things at the moment, but if I do dig up something significantly different from what was written, I'll be sure to notify you guys.

By the way, the wiki says Demarcation removes PAR, but it didn't when I tried to use it for that purpose. Unless it only removes it occasionally, I'm pretty sure it only removes debuffs.

Ghaleon · « **Reply #713 on:** July 21, 2010, 07:41:39 AM »

Quote from: Esoterica on July 21, 2010, 07:15:22 AM

By the way, the wiki says Demarcation removes PAR, but it didn't when I tried to use it for that purpose. Unless it only removes it occasionally, I'm pretty sure it only removes debuffs.

Was that the wiki that says that? I recall hearing that somewhere myself, tried it, and was left disappointed.

RainfallYoshi · « **Reply #714 on:** July 21, 2010, 09:02:55 AM »

Is it just me, or is this game overly-abundant in mage type characters compared to physical attackers? It feels the same for enemies and bosses, though I could just be senile.

Pesco · « **Reply #715 on:** July 21, 2010, 10:24:55 AM »

Enemy type distribution is roughly the same as the PCs imo.

Hitting that hurrgrindwall with Team (9) by now. Just started a fresh game to play at work. It's been such a long time since I used Sakuya for anything >_>

Esoterica · « **Reply #716 on:** July 21, 2010, 02:24:17 PM »

Quote from: YellowYoshi on July 21, 2010, 09:02:55 AM

Is it just me, or is this game overly-abundant in mage type characters compared to physical attackers? It feels the same for enemies and bosses, though I could just be senile.

When's the last time you saw someone favor melee to overly complex bullet patterns outside of the fighting games? :V

Pesco · « **Reply #717 on:** July 21, 2010, 04:27:39 PM »

The stats tables on the character pages look really squashed. How about moving the portraits to above, below or inset within the play notes and letting the text spread out better. It'll make reading the formulae much easier.

Serela · « **Reply #718 on:** July 21, 2010, 04:31:15 PM »

Yeah, I did kinda cringe when whoever it was added the portraits. They squashed the text a bunch, it wasn't worth it.

Axel Ryman · « **Reply #719 on:** July 21, 2010, 04:44:20 PM »

That would be me, and I do apologize for that happening as I was trying to get it so it would look well but I couldn't so I put those there in hopes someone would edit them to look better. Again, sorry bout that. :ohdear: