Author Topic: Characters, music, personalities.  (Read 337158 times)

Solais

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Re: Characters, music, personalities.
« Reply #120 on: October 07, 2009, 01:00:58 PM »
So, to put it simply, she is only jealous when there's someone else there, not just her. So she's not jealous when she's alone, so she's a loner. And thanks to that there's little to no people going to or from the underground, she rarely meets with anyone, so most of the time she's... happy. O_o

Fightest

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Re: Characters, music, personalities.
« Reply #121 on: October 07, 2009, 01:15:45 PM »
So, to put it simply, she is only jealous when there's someone else there, not just her. So she's not jealous when she's alone, so she's a loner. And thanks to that there's little to no people going to or from the underground, she rarely meets with anyone, so most of the time she's... happy. O_o

Now that you mention it... Yep, which is kinda funny. But you can't actually tell, since actually checking whether she's happy or not means being around Parsee, which activates her jealousy, making her unhappy. A case of Shroedinger's Jealousy, if you will.

In all seriousness, what you say makes a lot of sense - Parsee is aware of her crippling insecurities, so she'd naturally stay away from things that trigger them. I doubt she enjoys overwhelming pangs of jealousy.

Fightest

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Re: Characters, music, personalities.
« Reply #122 on: October 08, 2009, 12:55:57 PM »
[edit] Some more thoughts on Parsee. Having said that she probably doesn't enjoy pangs of jealousy, I just realised that there's little evidence to suggest this is actually true. It's not unusual for humans to feel pleasure from negative emotions, especially such aggressive ones as jealousy. Now, Parsee is a youkai, but ZUN's quite severely humanised them, so I think I can be safe in making the conclusion that she does as well. Thus it could well be that Parsee indeed does enjoy her own jealousy, in a guilty-pleasure kind of way. I'd be interested in everyone's comments on this.


Yuugi Hoshiguma - A Flower-Studded Sake Dish on Mt. Ooe

Whether her SAKE NOT EVEN DROP or not, Yuugi is clearly playing around here. From texture, to instrumentation, to the melody itself, the music shows someone without a shred of seriousness in them (not counting the short introduction for now), someone with exactly one goal in mind - mucking about. There is exactly one melodic motif in the entire piece that picks up something new every repetition, but stays unmistakably itself throughout, showing Yuugi's strong dedication to the cause of her own entertainment.

Instrumentation-wise, ZUN's added a few new ones to his repertoire. The introduction has something that could pass off as strings, and the main melody is characterised by a double-reed instrument, probably some sort of oboe. The former almost always adds a lyrical power to a motif, excellent for high-powered emotional tension, whereas the latter creates a strained, almost squeaky sound that has a comic effect no matter whether it's in major or minor - it always sounds dramatically exaggerated to the point of parody.

Considering the above, I'll start with the piece's introduction, the short little segment that sounds nothing like what follows it. In a short 13 seconds, the motif manages to impart a grandiose feeling, a dramatic entrance and a bit of a nervous tension. Notes are long and always lead to powerful chords which come up very often due to the short 2/4 time signature. The small motifs that connect one bar to another rarely use the bar's natural beats, instead relying equally on syncopation and triplet notes to break up the rhythm, in this case doing so emphasise a chord on a proper strong beat, as well as keeping the listener unbalanced with this brash disregard of the rules. The instrumentation spans a wide range on the keyboard, showing the listener a vast magnitude, and the bass drum passages present an implacable, mighty background, a feeling of invincibility. I, says Yuugi, am an Oni. A demon. A terrible beast who moves mountains with her bare hands and swallows enemies whole. Hear me roar!.

Of course, knowing Suika, this a rather large ham (tvtropes link here if I've been confusing people by using this to describe people; usual warnings related to tvtropes apply). Yuugi seems to break down into merry laughter once her act is done, all the seriousness completely gone, the flutes-and-strings replaced with oboe-and-trumpet, with their, as I described above, comic tones. The melody shows a great degree of whimsy, all in major at a quick pace, lots of ornamentation and hopping across major intervals. It is a complete personality change, or, more accurately, a personality reveal: Yuugi is a loudmouth, probably a raging drunkard, but most of all she loves to have fun. She enjoys poking fun at things, and certainly has no problem making fun of her own nature. None of it is malevolent, even though her behaviour might hit a lot of nerves due to her lack of inhibition.

In fact, listening to the track again, it's really beginning to feel like the entire track is Yugi cracking up at her own joke. "Rawr," she goes, "I'm a monster" (cookies to whoever gets the reference), then bursts out laughing uncontrollably. As one does when one hears something hilarious, she'll eventually repeat it, breathless, then crack up again, slowly calming down with the piano segment. Of course, it seems she's quite easily amused, as she quickly finds something else to laugh at, and the melody breaks out at full strength again.

It's interesting to compare the attitudes between Sake Dish and Onigashima - both, at least in my interpretation, show a great lack of inhibition, the willingness to make a fool of oneself if it's good fun, and to really let loose when acting something ridiculous. I would be curious to hear another Oni's theme, as, honestly, they are a lot of fun.

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Re: Characters, music, personalities.
« Reply #123 on: October 08, 2009, 01:38:54 PM »
BERSERKER SOUL! DRAW! MONSTA CARDO!

Actually, I think Yuugi is more a more optimistic person. She's a fun loving youkai who enjoys fighting, not a terrible beast.
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Re: Characters, music, personalities.
« Reply #124 on: October 08, 2009, 01:53:46 PM »
I love the analysis of Parsee... but oh how depressed I am now. :(

It makes me love the girl even more though, the poor thing.

Fightest

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Re: Characters, music, personalities.
« Reply #125 on: October 08, 2009, 02:37:41 PM »
BERSERKER SOUL! DRAW! MONSTA CARDO!

Actually, I think Yuugi is more a more optimistic person. She's a fun loving youkai who enjoys fighting, not a terrible beast.

Isn't that what I said? I'm not that unclear, am I? Her "monster" bit is all a big act to scare people (or even just surprise them), then yell "psych!" and burst out laughing. A bit of harmless fun at others' expense.

Solais

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Re: Characters, music, personalities.
« Reply #126 on: October 08, 2009, 03:02:55 PM »
...SWR, Remilia in Aya's Scenario?

Anyway, yeah, it's basically we all thought about Yuugi. Actually not just her theme, but the stage theme as well, is like this. The whole stage, including the boss fight is a festival. Everyone is having fun, except - of course - the heroine.

Looking forward to Satori Maiden. A little analyzing from someone who know nothing about music, but still a musical person:
The start is menacing. The main melody is haunting or creepy. Try humming it a little slower, and it really feels like that kind of music what is messing with your mind. The same kind of music in horrors, what causes fear. But you're the one who causing your own fear, not the song; it just messes with your mind. Anyway, for me, while I like the song, and really, really like Satori, the song sorta gives out a "you don't want to be with this girl" atmosphere.

Yeah, short. But this is how I hear it.

Re: Characters, music, personalities.
« Reply #127 on: October 08, 2009, 03:05:25 PM »
With all the various instruments showing up in the analysis it's worth noticing that almost all of them are synthesized. ZUN may be a master with his synth but his musical talents don't really extend to real instruments. Of course, that just makes his achievement even more awesome especially to someone like me who can't cut or sequence instrumentals to save my life. .

Fightest

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Re: Characters, music, personalities.
« Reply #128 on: October 08, 2009, 03:36:54 PM »
Quote from: Solais
Looking forward to Satori Maiden. A little analyzing from someone who know nothing about music, but still a musical person:
The start is menacing. The main melody is haunting or creepy. Try humming it a little slower, and it really feels like that kind of music what is messing with your mind. The same kind of music in horrors, what causes fear. But you're the one who causing your own fear, not the song; it just messes with your mind. Anyway, for me, while I like the song, and really, really like Satori, the song sorta gives out a "you don't want to be with this girl" atmosphere.

Now that I know what I'm looking for, there's a wealth of similarity between Satori Maiden and... U.N. Owen. Similar attitudes and instrumental approaches. Hell, Satori Maiden even has UNO's clacking sounds when the introduction opens up fully. Considering the mindscrew of UNO there's no wonder there's that "stay away" feeling in Satori Maiden. But more on that when I actually get to it tomorrow.

[edit] I think I know what you're talking about, but just to make sure, what do you mean when you said Remilia in Aya's scenario in SWR?

With all the various instruments showing up in the analysis it's worth noticing that almost all of them are synthesized. ZUN may be a master with his synth but his musical talents don't really extend to real instruments.

Oh, I imagine they're all synthesized. That said, it's interesting to see ZUN's evolution as a syntheziser-based composer throughout the series, starting from the exclusive synth-and-trumpets we hear in EoSD to the almost orchestral selection we get later on.

Solais

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Re: Characters, music, personalities.
« Reply #129 on: October 08, 2009, 08:27:05 PM »
[edit] I think I know what you're talking about, but just to make sure, what do you mean when you said Remilia in Aya's scenario in SWR?

Remilia: Growl-!

Aya: It's, it's here! It's a monster! What's going to happen to our correspondent?!

Remilia: I'm-gonna-eat-you-!

Well, at least it sounds like that...
Also: It's the most funniest scene in the game.

Fightest

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Re: Characters, music, personalities.
« Reply #130 on: October 08, 2009, 09:11:38 PM »
Remilia: Growl-!

Aya: It's, it's here! It's a monster! What's going to happen to our correspondent?!

Remilia: I'm-gonna-eat-you-!

Well, at least it sounds like that...
Also: It's the most funniest scene in the game.

Ah, yep, thought it was that. Although for me the funniest scene (also involving Remilia, oddly enough) was the one where Reimu accuses her of plotting something, and turns out that Remi was plotting something, just not this particular incident. To me, that's an excellent representation of Remi.

Re: Characters, music, personalities.
« Reply #131 on: October 09, 2009, 05:50:16 AM »
I know you might not agree to taking a detour from SA for a bit, but could I ask you for your opinions on what Innocent Treasures tells you about ZUN himself since it's labeled as his theme? It's been bugging me since I started reading this thread, not that that's a bad thing.

Feel free to put it off for a long as you want or to ignore the request altogether. I'll survive.  :)

Fightest

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Re: Characters, music, personalities.
« Reply #132 on: October 09, 2009, 06:37:18 AM »
I know you might not agree to taking a detour from SA for a bit, but could I ask you for your opinions on what Innocent Treasures tells you about ZUN himself since it's labeled as his theme? It's been bugging me since I started reading this thread, not that that's a bad thing.

I've never even heard of this one! Huh. I'm a sucky fan. Anyway, I'll try to go over it later, but a few thoughts for now:

That's... a stage theme. It really is. So first thing that comes to mind is that ZUN might see himself as a core part of the world he's created, not as an individual in that world. He doesn't come into the foreground as one does with a boss theme, or presents himself as a character, but rather his objective is to present his world, and see how everyone else interacts with that.


Here's a question from me: I searched for Innocent Treasures on Youtube, and clicked the first link, which gave me the correct theme. The picture for that one was, presumably, a CD cover of sorts, featuring two characters, both female, a blonde and a black-haired girl, the latter carrying a book. I've seen these two turn up in doujins before, from different authors, from what I remember. Who are they? Where did they first turn up?
« Last Edit: October 09, 2009, 07:03:27 AM by Fightest »

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Re: Characters, music, personalities.
« Reply #133 on: October 09, 2009, 06:46:33 AM »
Maribel and Renko, Original characters made for a series of music CDs that came with stories.
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Re: Characters, music, personalities.
« Reply #134 on: October 09, 2009, 07:17:38 AM »
To clarify, the blonde girl on the cover (Maribel) can see and cross borders, sort of a Yukari-lite, while the black haired girl (Renko) is a human GPS who can identify her exact location by looking at stars.

Solais

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Re: Characters, music, personalities.
« Reply #135 on: October 09, 2009, 08:52:29 AM »
And then there's the whole Mary is Yukari Theory... not going there, even thought I want to.

Also: Then it means ZUN is Gensokyo? Or Gensokyo is ZUN?

Tengukami

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Re: Characters, music, personalities.
« Reply #136 on: October 09, 2009, 11:39:35 AM »
Remilia: Growl-!

Aya: It's, it's here! It's a monster! What's going to happen to our correspondent?!

Remilia: I'm-gonna-eat-you-!


"Human history and growth are both linked closely to strife. Without conflict, humanity would have no impetus for growth. When humans are satisfied with their present condition, they may as well give up on life."

Fightest

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Re: Characters, music, personalities.
« Reply #137 on: October 09, 2009, 01:35:39 PM »


Eep. Here's to hoping Remi's just getting carried away.

In other news: Onwards!

Satori Komeiji ? Satori Maiden ~ 3rd Eye

What hit me after the third or fourth playthrough of this track is that both melodies present in the piece, discounting the connecting segment at 0:26, are actually quite pleasant. I?m going to contest you here, Solais ? the melodies, taken completely by themselves, feel really quite dance-like for the first one and extremely lyrical for the second. Although they carry a slightly bitter tone, they are certainly not threatening or mindscrewy. The mindscrew is completely carried by the accompaniment and instrumentation, and is ramped up by them to immense proportions. I?ll go over the content of the melodies first, as the most interesting parts lie indeed where the mindscrew is greatest.

The first melody has many strong beats, lots of ornamentation and syncopation to emphasise those strong beats. As I said before, this smacks of a dance to me, a fast-paced, whirling dance with lots of emphasis on steps and jumps. Considering the harmonies present (and I hesitate to make the comparison due to poor familiarity), this reminds me of Middle-Eastern dance music. Whether intentional or not, these kinds of harmonies might sound alien to those unused to it, for example some of us Westerners, thus painting Satori in an unfamiliar light, something we can?t associate with. Of course, fear of the unknown is probably one of the more animalistic emotions humans (and, I guess, humanform Youkai) have, so it is probably little wonder why Satori is so feared, not even taking into account her power. Of course, this means that many won?t notice the grace with which Satori holds herself, her quiet and strong dancer?s confidence.
This last bit is more of an afterthought, but the sort of dance that this melody bears similarities to is usually danced by men, so there could be a bit of masculinity in Satori, probably most prominent in her assertiveness in her introduction dialogue, where Satori demonstrates her dominance over the characters by holding a one-sided conversation with the characters by reading their every thought.

The second melody is quite straightforward in its harmony, with few odd tones, instead going for a minor key with a few detours into major to show sadness, longing, a certain depression. The Satori shown here is probably unhappy with her current situation, whether it is because of the way she?s seen by others or due to something more ephemeral. I would say it?s simply because she?s lonely, considering her only company for the last whoever-knows-how-long are not the sharpest tools in the shed.

The accompaniment and instrumentation are what really give Satori her ?oomph?. ZUN pulls out pretty much every trick in the book to make the listener uncomfortable and the sound disconcerting. The first melody starts off with a growling bass and the harshest acoustic guitar I?ve ever heard, cymbals, of course, providing sharp accents at the most opportune times. The first melody continues, and the guitar picks up, its completely cold sound having the potential to actually scare, since it really brings a lot of attention to itself, making it sound louder than it actually is. This is another of those animalistic things that seem to permeate Satori?s repertoire ? loud, sharp, high-pitched sounds tend to quicken the pulse, pushing the listener into action. Of course, the listener has no way to actually respond other than to turn the track off, so the helplessness combines with the adrenaline rush to actually create the feeling of fear. Remember that famous track from Psycho? This is much the same effect. You?re absolutely right here, Solais ? the fear is completely internal, created by the listener himself, with nothing to really inspire it other than some loud sounds.

The second melody does much the same, except this time with a loud bass, the minor key of the melody giving it a threatening tone. Its unique contribution to the mindscrew comes in the second repetition, where the melody?s played by two trumpets in a diminished interval, one that sounds just off a pleasant regular interval, once again making the listener squirm, completely uncaring about it.

Basically, Satori seems to be a master at freaking people the hell out, demonstrated by the variety of techniques the melody employs to do so. It?s clear that she does so consciously, so I feel she?s somewhat of a bully. She might lament this from time to time, and might even show regret, so there?s quite a bit of a complex going on within her, balancing the need to assert herself versus the want to have some more varied company. A large factor that pushes people away from her is their inability to understand her, so it?s probably simply a matter of time before others get more used to her, and she stops taking advantage of their weakness.

Re: Characters, music, personalities.
« Reply #138 on: October 09, 2009, 02:53:42 PM »
I always got more of a Western vibe from the piece but maybe that's just me.

Fightest

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Re: Characters, music, personalities.
« Reply #139 on: October 09, 2009, 03:05:59 PM »
I always got more of a Western vibe from the piece but maybe that's just me.

Hmm...well, the origin is up for interpretation, certainly, which is why I didn't draw any conclusions from that. Still, I think it being a danse macabre-sort of thing kind of works.

Solais

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Re: Characters, music, personalities.
« Reply #140 on: October 09, 2009, 04:19:44 PM »
Hmm, it's surprising, that I was more uncertain with the melody, and more certain with the start. Dunno. But as I said, I'm not an expert, I know nothing about music, besides the emotions they bring.

Fightest

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Re: Characters, music, personalities.
« Reply #141 on: October 09, 2009, 05:45:02 PM »
Hmm, it's surprising, that I was more uncertain with the melody, and more certain with the start. Dunno. But as I said, I'm not an expert, I know nothing about music, besides the emotions they bring.

Oh, hey, I'm not preaching absolute truths here, there's a lot of interpretation involved, and it doesn't take an expert to make judgements. Now, justifying them might take some experience, but I'm still interested in everyone's opinions, no matter if they might disagree with mine.

In this case, I think that the opening sounds so horror-esque for you when just humming the melody by itself is that you subconsciously add the accompaniment on top of it. I could be wrong, of course, let's see...

Not the best of examples, but it works: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4AdzPv14t_A
Does this opening elicit the same feeling, or a different one? If the same, then I'm wrong, and I'm fine with that. On the other hand, if it elicits a different one, then the accompaniment quality really does contribute to most of the mindscrew.

I hope I'm not sounding patronising. All I'm doing is shamelessly using you for a whimsical musical experiment.  ;)

Solais

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Re: Characters, music, personalities.
« Reply #142 on: October 09, 2009, 06:03:50 PM »
Now it sounds perfectly like some theme in Castlevania. Not horroristic, but... somekind of vampirish. Vampirish meaning there's that dance-like feeling, but with some sort of menacing "Holy shit, it's a vampire's dance!" feel. Even the main melody now, as it's still piano, and it doesn't change instrument. Dunno.

Anyway, maybe you should check out ZUN's Maribel and Renko story CDs. There are a lot of unique original songs on them, and some interesting arranges. Like Necrofantasia, what somehow is still the same, yet it sounds so different. Or Reincarnation, Mima's theme from PoDD, that's great too. And, of course, G Free. Just G Free.

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Re: Characters, music, personalities.
« Reply #143 on: October 09, 2009, 06:15:37 PM »
And, of course, G Free. Just G Free.

Sometimes I wonder if I'm the only person who thinks G Free is good, but not great...

Here's a question from me: I searched for Innocent Treasures on Youtube, and clicked the first link, which gave me the correct theme. The picture for that one was, presumably, a CD cover of sorts, featuring two characters, both female, a blonde and a black-haired girl, the latter carrying a book. I've seen these two turn up in doujins before, from different authors, from what I remember. Who are they? Where did they first turn up?

Eheh, next you'll be asking who Rin Satsuki is~

Anyway... I've been reading these for a while and not commented on them, so I'll just say that I find them to be most enlightening.  They've allowed me to look at some of the characters in a different light, which is always a good thing.  I kinda hope you do the PC-98 themes after you've finished the Windows ones, but... Yeah.

Ahem... But yes, I look forward to the rest of your analyses~
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Fightest

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Re: Characters, music, personalities.
« Reply #144 on: October 09, 2009, 06:45:04 PM »
Anyway, maybe you should check out ZUN's Maribel and Renko story CDs. There are a lot of unique original songs on them, and some interesting arranges. Like Necrofantasia, what somehow is still the same, yet it sounds so different. Or Reincarnation, Mima's theme from PoDD, that's great too. And, of course, G Free. Just G Free.

I'll put those on my to-do list then. G Free is pleasant, but sounds like a stage theme to me, and, for me, no stage theme can beat Extend Ash - Hourai Victim, although Heartfelt Fancy comes close. That said, I wonder if the Mokou fanboy in me has any influence on that.

Quote from: Moerin
Eheh, next you'll be asking who Rin Satsuki is~

Anyway... I've been reading these for a while and not commented on them, so I'll just say that I find them to be most enlightening.  They've allowed me to look at some of the characters in a different light, which is always a good thing.  I kinda hope you do the PC-98 themes after you've finished the Windows ones, but... Yeah.

I'm tempted to do the PC-98 ones, but I somewhat dislike chiptunes, so, if at all, I'll be going through the games in reverse order until I can't handle them any more. Also, I'm glad that my analyses inspire a different look at characters. They've certainly done so for me, so it's good to hear similar thoughts from you guys.

There's no possible way this could turn out poorly, so tell me, who is this Rin Satsuki? Touhou wiki says she doesn't exist. :V
« Last Edit: October 09, 2009, 06:47:35 PM by Fightest »

Solais

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Re: Characters, music, personalities.
« Reply #145 on: October 09, 2009, 07:00:28 PM »
Well, yeah, G Free, is really not that great for me too, I just sorta believed that most of you would find it great like most of the people. Rock arranges are a little better, but those still not make my top10 list.

And yeah, there's nothing much else about Satsuki Rin. But, my second fangame idea would feature her as the final boss. Too bad, I'll never do it.

Re: Characters, music, personalities.
« Reply #146 on: October 09, 2009, 11:26:16 PM »
I may be biased as Satori is one of my favourite characters, but, when you mention her being a bully, I like to see it as her knowing that, no matter what, most people are going to fear and hate her, and she'd rather have them fear her for a reason that's more than the fact that she's a satori.
I just thought of this rather spur-of-the-moment as I was reading this, so I'm interested in hearing what you think about that idea, and I'll probably revise it a bit once I think about it some more.

Fightest

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Re: Characters, music, personalities.
« Reply #147 on: October 09, 2009, 11:58:13 PM »
I may be biased as Satori is one of my favourite characters, but, when you mention her being a bully, I like to see it as her knowing that, no matter what, most people are going to fear and hate her, and she'd rather have them fear her for a reason that's more than the fact that she's a satori.
I just thought of this rather spur-of-the-moment as I was reading this, so I'm interested in hearing what you think about that idea, and I'll probably revise it a bit once I think about it some more.

Hmm. I... don't really know. Wikipedia describes a satori as pretty much what Satori does - a youkai that goes up to people and tells them their thoughts. I would then think that it's just something that makes Satori who she is, an inherent part of her nature, a form of assertion of herself to both herself and to others.

That she uses this ability to actively make people uncomfortable seems to be above and beyond her nature, perhaps due to some sort of wish to express individuality? You would be right then, as she would seem to prefer to be Satori, not just a satori. In this case, her bullying would stem from the insecurities formed due to her loneliness - she would want to be remembered by many, so would attempt to make large impressions on them in the only way she knows - mindscrew.

Re: Characters, music, personalities.
« Reply #148 on: October 10, 2009, 12:36:38 AM »
Rin Satsuki was supposed to be the third playable character in PCB after Marisa and Reimu and ZUN even used her picture in his Comiket ad for PCB. She pretty much disappeared after Sakuya was put in instead but the game data does have her name in a couple of places.

no stage theme can beat Extend Ash - Hourai Victim

This definitely sounds like something a Mokou fanboy would say. I don't mean any offense but it sounds like you're dismissing any potentially better themes that you've yet to hear as well. Why not leave that area open?

However, does Extend Ash match your impression of the ideal stage theme? If so, it would be hard to beat from your point of view.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2009, 12:47:22 AM by Recon 5 »

Re: Characters, music, personalities.
« Reply #149 on: October 10, 2009, 01:32:34 AM »
That she uses this ability to actively make people uncomfortable seems to be above and beyond her nature, perhaps due to some sort of wish to express individuality? You would be right then, as she would seem to prefer to be Satori, not just a satori. In this case, her bullying would stem from the insecurities formed due to her loneliness - she would want to be remembered by many, so would attempt to make large impressions on them in the only way she knows - mindscrew.
This doesn't match what I was trying to say very well, but I think that this is much closer to my view of Satori than what I had posted. I view her loneliness as one of her defining characteristics - she spends all of her time in the palace with only her pets and occasionally her sister as company. Like you said, scaring others may be her way of ensuring that people know about her and, if they meet her, remember her.