Author Topic: Medaka Box Mafia - GAME OVER  (Read 86926 times)

Re: Medaka Box Mafia - GAME OVER
« Reply #480 on: March 25, 2014, 11:00:15 AM »
If it helps at all I thought you were really obvtown BT

But then I probably would've lynched Conq and Shadoweh because I also thought Bard's frustration with Sky was too genuine to come from scum. I guess using emotion tells on Bard goes out the window after this :V

Re: Medaka Box Mafia - GAME OVER
« Reply #481 on: March 25, 2014, 11:02:03 AM »
yea I thought Bard had to be town being bullied by the evil mafia member tbh (though I thought his play in general was solid, not just the emotion.)

Re: Medaka Box Mafia - GAME OVER
« Reply #482 on: March 25, 2014, 11:13:16 AM »
I thought his play in general was solid, not just the emotion

Same, but Bard can put out solid content as both alignments so this isn't really very alignment-telling (hence why I tried to rely on emotion tells instead).

EDIT: Also good luck with your IRL stuff Bard

Dormio Ergo Sum

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Re: Medaka Box Mafia - GAME OVER
« Reply #483 on: March 25, 2014, 11:15:08 AM »
I dunno, I'm pretty sure that frustration from Bard in regards to Sky Paladin's arguments was pretty legit.
Hell, I was pretty frustrated when I was reading those.

BT

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Re: Medaka Box Mafia - GAME OVER
« Reply #484 on: March 25, 2014, 11:15:36 AM »
Well, fuck, I guess that's excusable when you're not playing, but there was no excuse for this outcome to happen considering the huge difference in interactions and consequences for play. I don't play mafia so that the best actor wins. I would have signed up for drama instead.

I'm being kind of harsh, but something went seriously wrong with this endgame. This really needs to get through. Town had Adorable levels of game control until they decided to lynch all of the townies voluntarily. Shadoweh and I were lynched without a case and the Serela wagon was a gift from the heavens because scum did nothing to make it happen.

Re: Medaka Box Mafia - GAME OVER
« Reply #485 on: March 25, 2014, 11:20:11 AM »
I remembered scum!Bard being more vague as scum - like, he doesn't go into the heart of why he suspects people are posting with scum intent, at least not as viciously as he would as town. It's been ages since I've seen him play scum though.

Cut: "I don't play mafia so that the best actor wins." uhhhh but being the best actor is literally what good scumplay is about, like I'm not gonna deny town dropped the ball on the last two days (even though I thought Bard was town I would've lynched him over Shadoweh just because of her Zak lynch) but don't be the guy who devalues scum's win just because of salt. If anything the best team wins and if town was the best team D6 - D7 wouldn't have happened.

Re: Medaka Box Mafia - GAME OVER
« Reply #486 on: March 25, 2014, 11:25:48 AM »
ftr if I had randomly been a hidden player who could enter the game at any time I would've thought it was Skypal before Shadoweh voted Bard and he didn't hammer. that's actually probably stupid since scum!Skypal would've just shot Conq or somebody and claimed a different effect from motivation but oh well, "Hindsight is 20/2" - Conqueror

that said, I wasn't paying very close attention, but Bard did play well enough to fool me on a cursory skim and also win the game so that has to count for something.

Kilgamayan

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Re: Medaka Box Mafia - GAME OVER
« Reply #487 on: March 25, 2014, 11:26:08 AM »
thanks Sky_Paladin for RUINING MY BIRTHDAY

> rooting against Bard as your birthday wish

:C
[22:40:12] <Drake> "guys i donwloaded esod but its not workan"
[22:40:21] <Drake> REPORTED
[22:40:25] <NaturallyOccurringChoja> PROBATED
[22:40:30] <Drake> ORGASM
[22:40:32] <NaturallyOccurringChoja> FUCK YEAH

[22:28:39] <Edible> Mafia would be a much easier game if we were playing "spot the asshole"

BT

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Re: Medaka Box Mafia - GAME OVER
« Reply #488 on: March 25, 2014, 11:28:38 AM »
Acting can only get you so far. People eventually look into someone's play and what motivates it.

What's making me say all this is that I feel like this isn't how games are meant to be won. I shouldn't end the game feeling that both sides played subpar. Something something scumhunting. I'm going to regret NOT saying all this every time I look at this game in the future.

EDIT: Thinking SkyPal was scum on D7 was absurd since it would mean scum had a motivated doublekiller, aside from variety kills. So basically two roles based around kills. That's ignoring SkyPal's impossible-to-come-from-scum analyses, but yeah.
« Last Edit: March 25, 2014, 11:30:21 AM by BT »

Sky_Paladin

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Re: Medaka Box Mafia - GAME OVER
« Reply #489 on: March 25, 2014, 11:30:34 AM »
Look.  I knew something was fishy with Bard.  His neighbor died and he wouldn't come clean about what he was going to do, he didn't crumb and there was lots of other things.  But there was no solid 'scumslip' that I could point at.  The best I could do was process of elimination and find the worst player on the assumption that town wants to kill scum.  But I had Shadoweh massively defending Bard the whole time instead of making a case against BT.  I got tired of dredging the same thing up over and over and over.  And then I couldn't find the quote I thought was there so I thought 'did I imagine the whole thing?'

Town loss isn't all my fault.  I wanted to lynch Bard the day before.  There wasn't a case on BT except for 'Rawrzilla'. 

The graveyard quicktopic was full of people raging at me for coming up with crazy shit but crazy shit is all I had because YOU sit in the situation where you go ummm well nobody is making a valid case. 

I wanted to lynch Bard but I gave up because nobody supported me.  Then finally on the last day when I had my chance I didn't trust myself any more.  Dormio if you want to go through and pull out the things I said that you think were retarded go ahead and let's chat. 

My play wasn't great but I tried really hard and I was right up until the very last moment.  In fact if I'd died night 6 nobody would have thought twice about it.  And maybe you'd be laughing at Conqueror now instead. 

I just, there's no scumslip and I don't have a magic guilty.  What am I supposed to do?  What would you have done?
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Re: Medaka Box Mafia - GAME OVER
« Reply #490 on: March 25, 2014, 11:31:33 AM »
> rooting against Bard as your birthday wish

:C
I remember reading a guide to scum where the writer said town believes they "ought to win", I think that applies to the peanut gallery in terms of rooting for players as well. Unless there's a SK.

Acting can only get you so far. People eventually look into someone's play and what motivates it.

What's making me say all this is that I feel like this isn't how games are meant to be won. I shouldn't end the game feeling that both sides played subpar. Something something scumhunting. I'm going to regret NOT saying all this every time I look at this game in the future.
I don't think Bard's play was subpar really, just his buddies. in any case this happens in just about every game here (look at Utena, you can't seriously say my play was good and not just me making shit up on the spot and getting away with it because people just want me to win as scum for some reason) and while it's definitely far from ideal I'm surprised you're only complaining about it now.

Chaore

  • Kai Ni Recipient Many Years Late
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Re: Medaka Box Mafia - GAME OVER
« Reply #491 on: March 25, 2014, 11:34:11 AM »
Cut: "I don't play mafia so that the best actor wins." uhhhh but being the best actor is literally what good scumplay is about, like I'm not gonna deny town dropped the ball on the last two days (even though I thought Bard was town I would've lynched him over Shadoweh just because of her Zak lynch) but don't be the guy who devalues scum's win just because of salt. If anything the best team wins and if town was the best team D6 - D7 wouldn't have happened.

tbh let bt have his salt here, this was a pretty fucking pitiful loss for town and something i'm surprised more people aren't upset about

I just, there's no scumslip and I don't have a magic guilty.  What am I supposed to do?  What would you have done?

i would've voted bard  :justasplanned:

Sky_Paladin

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Re: Medaka Box Mafia - GAME OVER
« Reply #492 on: March 25, 2014, 11:35:16 AM »
You weren't even playing :D
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BT

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Re: Medaka Box Mafia - GAME OVER
« Reply #493 on: March 25, 2014, 11:39:12 AM »
Look.  I knew something was fishy with Bard.  His neighbor died and he wouldn't come clean about what he was going to do, he didn't crumb and there was lots of other things.  But there was no solid 'scumslip' that I could point at.  The best I could do was process of elimination and find the worst player on the assumption that town wants to kill scum.  But I had Shadoweh massively defending Bard the whole time instead of making a case against BT.  I got tired of dredging the same thing up over and over and over.  And then I couldn't find the quote I thought was there so I thought 'did I imagine the whole thing?'
There's more to it than that. Example: everything I said on D6.

My play wasn't great but I tried really hard and I was right up until the very last moment.  In fact if I'd died night 6 nobody would have thought twice about it.  And maybe you'd be laughing at Conqueror now instead. 

I just, there's no scumslip and I don't have a magic guilty.  What am I supposed to do?  What would you have done?
Good job making an effort. If people got mad, it's because you did something they wouldn't have done. Look at what they're saying and learn for next time. I'm sure any "feelings" of "anger" towards you will disappear in a flash even if they do exist, and if they don't that's silly.

As for what you could have done - plenty. You learn to know what to look for with time.

I don't think Bard's play was subpar really, just his buddies. in any case this happens in just about every game here (look at Utena, you can't seriously say my play was good and not just me making shit up on the spot and getting away with it because people just want me to win as scum for some reason) and while it's definitely far from ideal I'm surprised you're only complaining about it now.
Fair comparison. Is it surprising I didn't complain about that and I'm complaining about this? Perspective can do a lot. By all accounts town should learn from both games and scum should be happy for managing to somehow worm out of situations that shouldn't have let them win. :V The fact that this happens multiple times just underlines how important all this is? Iunno.

I'm really trying not to salt. It's hard. If anything here comes off as angry/bitchy, sorry.
« Last Edit: March 25, 2014, 11:42:50 AM by BT »

Re: Medaka Box Mafia - GAME OVER
« Reply #494 on: March 25, 2014, 11:39:50 AM »
Skypal, best advice I can give you is instead of focusing on how you were wrong, look at the motivations of Bard / Shadoweh now that you know what their alignments actually were, and factor that into how you judge alignments in the future

cuz I know that in God Damn It Chaore, K4U's actions being scum instead of reVelske's didn't make sense to me until I got better at the game and took another look. LYLO calls are hard.

tbh let bt have his salt here, this was a pretty fucking pitiful loss for town and something i'm surprised more people aren't upset about

i would've voted bard  :justasplanned:
God Damn It Chaore

i don't mean to be unreasonable, town fucking up definitely needs to be discussed and learned from, i just think it's dumb to act like bard didn't play well enough to win or whatever, i mean yeah town should've had the game in the bag, but not because bard was super scummy or anything

Sky_Paladin

  • Caution is advised.
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Re: Medaka Box Mafia - GAME OVER
« Reply #495 on: March 25, 2014, 11:43:20 AM »
Quote
Look at what they're saying and learn for next time.

Quote
look at the motivations of Bard / Shadoweh now that you know what their alignments actually were

Yeah, I'll do that.  Thank you. 

I'm hurt too :/  I was trusting Bard and Shadoweh so much.  I wanted them to be town.  I had relied on Shadoweh lynching Zak as the pillar of 'she must be town'.  So when I had to question that I realised I didn't have a whole lot left other than that.  I was also suspicious because she never declared her night action before Bard.  The last thing I had was Bard's vote on day 1, but when I ISO'd Shadoweh and saw Zak and CF7 had also voted alongside her, I was T___T damn.
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Re: Medaka Box Mafia - GAME OVER
« Reply #496 on: March 25, 2014, 11:59:05 AM »
I still wish I survived one more day to get the Governer one shot and abuse it. If only so I could make this loss make more sense.

also ty to both CF7 and Zakeri for being adorable and sending me apologies for giving me headhaackes <3
You're sucm, that's suposed to be your jobs you silly willsies

Doesn't mean I'm not sorry~
Glad to see you're recovering nicely though, and thanks for the new avatar.

My biggest downfall this game was pretty much the same downfall for all of my other games, I'm sorry for being useless but at least I made the game more fun maybe? I hope?

Also for anyone who isn't reading the ScumQT, Bard's frusteration seemed super legit because it was super legit. The key with using AtE as a tell is to try and figure out what the source of emotions is, and that's what Shadoweh was trying to do at the end when she pointed out Bard was getting mad at her for "Finding him scum for the wrong reasons."

Re:Salt - I think that's just the nature of how the game works. It's about a small group covering themselves up and a large group exposing that cover up. It's a war of wits, so of course the side that loses is going to look super dumb after the fact. The important thing is for everyone to come away from it with everyone saying stuff like "These are my problem areas, this is what I need to focus on to do better next game" That's the best way to deal with the anger from losing the game.  That is what's happening though, so I guess I'm happy with it.

Also, it's not really a case of both sides feeling like losers, Bard's play was super good this game, and much better than ours.

Chaore

  • Kai Ni Recipient Many Years Late
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Re: Medaka Box Mafia - GAME OVER
« Reply #497 on: March 25, 2014, 12:20:33 PM »
God Damn It Chaore

i don't mean to be unreasonable, town fucking up definitely needs to be discussed and learned from, i just think it's dumb to act like bard didn't play well enough to win or whatever, i mean yeah town should've had the game in the bag, but not because bard was super scummy or anything

Not really?

Like, I get they're the losing side and salt whatever, whatever, but MOTK has a habit of talking up the winner and thinking that their play is immune to criticism and overall way better than it actually was.

Bard's play at the end was kind of suspect and I think it's fair for BT to call him out on it. The only reason I'm not is because I wasn't playing and picking on Bard's tendency to get overly frustrated is kind of mean.

Shadoweh

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Re: Medaka Box Mafia - GAME OVER
« Reply #498 on: March 25, 2014, 12:24:29 PM »
Zakeriiiii <3

I'm hurt too :/  I was trusting Bard and Shadoweh so much.  I wanted them to be town.  I had relied on Shadoweh lynching Zak as the pillar of 'she must be town'.  So when I had to question that I realised I didn't have a whole lot left other than that.  I was also suspicious because she never declared her night action before Bard.  The last thing I had was Bard's vote on day 1, but when I ISO'd Shadoweh and saw Zak and CF7 had also voted alongside her, I was T___T damn.
Medaka Box Mafia: Lynching Scum Isn't Enough.

I never had a reason to declare my night action first. Being super helpful and openly claiming unnecessarily is a scumtrait in my opinion, actual Townies shouldn't care about their appearance. Both Conq and Bard commented in the QT's that you preferred logic-based cases to my regular emotion-based posts and I wasn't giving you what you liked.

Bard pulled a miracle and I let him win just as much as you did on different days. I'm sorry BT I can't say it enough T_T

Cut: Making decisions as a stress-free observer and making decisions after seven Mafia Days are completely different anyways. You can't say you wouldn't have doubted yourself and voted me for being TOO RISKY yourself.


Kitten4u: "I'll say it plainly: THERE IS NO WAY SHADOWEH IS SCUM!" - A Balanced Game of Mafia

Re: Medaka Box Mafia - GAME OVER
« Reply #499 on: March 25, 2014, 12:26:16 PM »
scum are going to be scummy on some level because they're scum but i'm not trying to play the winner up here, i legitimately do not think bard's play here was bad

e: to be clear good play =/= spotless play

Kilgamayan

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Re: Medaka Box Mafia - GAME OVER
« Reply #500 on: March 25, 2014, 12:35:33 PM »
Good scum play is fooling the living townies into thinking you're not scum. Who cares what dead townies and people not playing the game think? Their opinions won't get you lynched.
[22:40:12] <Drake> "guys i donwloaded esod but its not workan"
[22:40:21] <Drake> REPORTED
[22:40:25] <NaturallyOccurringChoja> PROBATED
[22:40:30] <Drake> ORGASM
[22:40:32] <NaturallyOccurringChoja> FUCK YEAH

[22:28:39] <Edible> Mafia would be a much easier game if we were playing "spot the asshole"

BT

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Re: Medaka Box Mafia - GAME OVER
« Reply #501 on: March 25, 2014, 12:37:25 PM »
Okay, the reason I said "subpar" is because of how out of their control this game was for scum, even at the very end. It's why most of my critique is directed as town right now. Because scum has town to thank for a lot of things. I guess I don't feel like *congratulating* Bard because *I* was never fooled but I know that's clear bias territory, by way of me being able to say that.

Re: Medaka Box Mafia - GAME OVER
« Reply #502 on: March 25, 2014, 12:39:57 PM »
the best way to play scum is to lynch the people who suspect you, ideally 10 minutes from deadline

bbm knows what i'm talking about :>

Bardiche

  • Mafia: Worst Game Ever
Re: Medaka Box Mafia - GAME OVER
« Reply #503 on: March 25, 2014, 01:30:00 PM »
So what's going on that has me on edge is my grandpa is dying, and my mother's citizenship may be revoked. It's got me on edge.


I wrote a wall with regards to how BT is being a sore loser, but honestly that's not worth it. I do think it's rather shitty. The last time I pulled out a win from behind it was as Town, catching Dormio on lying about his Post Restriction. That game, everyone said Town's play was shit and we hadn't deserved to win, and Serela commented that all my efforts were pointless and I was just "lucky".

I think MOTK has a huge problem with appreciating people's efforts and like to make people feel bad for the outcome of a Mafia game. That's something that needs to be fixed more than any amount of Town play.  Be good sports.

Sky_Paladin

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Re: Medaka Box Mafia - GAME OVER
« Reply #504 on: March 25, 2014, 02:27:26 PM »
Oh man that's horrible.  I hope that this against the odds win in some small way makes things a little rosier.  My brother died a few months back so I do know it's small comfort. 

You played me like a thing that gets played.   At the end of the day the only thing that matters is scum win or town win. 

I said it before but I'll say it again.  Congratulations :)  Now go take care of your family, with my warmest regards. 
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Serela

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Re: Medaka Box Mafia - GAME OVER
« Reply #505 on: March 25, 2014, 02:40:16 PM »
But that WAS true Bard :C If Dormio hadn't messed up his PR town would have lost that game, IIRC, so it was just a PR flubup that let town win. I think the general consensus had been to not lynch Dormio? I don't really remember though, I can't even remember I have a PR long enough to not get modkilled/vig-killed. Last time was also Dormio's game. Isn't it sad? Mosu mosu (bad things happen between me and dormio with prs, apparently)

I hope I didn't really say everything you did was pointless though because obv. townies should try to win, all I remember is I read your cases on Dormio and didn't agree and I thought your play looked scummy, so I never would have voted Dormio until he confirmed himself lying

also Dormio has taught me never to believe him again when he tells me Shadoweh is scum, after I die

Anyway, I think it's dumb to get mad that Bard won and didn't deserve it or something. He didn't win through something stupid like ROLES AMAZING. SkyPal's decision isn't one I'd agree with (PoEing it to Bard in 3p lylo is what I always said I'd do!) but having the people who make smart decisions reliably be dead by lylo is a legit strat.

That being said SkyPal was pretty glorious this game and turned himself into obvtown from obvscum through sheer playing effort. I have to admit his attitudes against Bard for a lot of the last two days made me go "SKYPAL, WHY?!" a lot, though. A lot of Bard's frustration there was sympathized with by me.

e:I edited this post 8 times immediately after making it, adding significant amounts of new content each time, this is what normally happens with my posts and this is why it's amazing this is only the first time I screwed up in mafia and did it
« Last Edit: March 25, 2014, 03:21:27 PM by Serela »
<mauvecow> see this is how evil works in reality, it just wears you down with bureaucracy until you don't care anymore

Bardiche

  • Mafia: Worst Game Ever
Re: Medaka Box Mafia - GAME OVER
« Reply #506 on: March 25, 2014, 02:52:15 PM »
For what it's worth if I had been in control of the kill N1 I still think Rawr was a good kill because he was obvTown. Due to people regarding me as a "strong" player, I never can afford killing the actual strong players and have to hope to blend in with the crowd. Honestly, I don't think I'm a strong player. I sometimes have a good day and the Miracle happens. (See: Eden of the East Mafia and Zombie Mafia) The rest of the time I'm usually floundering around. I think GLaDOS has been my first mislynch death in a while, though.

As I said in the Scum QT my method is to actually hunt for people I find genuinely detracting to Town. This is why Serela was such a big aim for me as I felt his play was detrimental to the scumhunt effort. ActionDan was partially detrimental by being one-liners, partially because he was a wildcard and I wanted to eliminate chance. BT was what felt most possible, and I think him claiming there was nothing he should've been lynched for is false; at least I can relate, because that's how I actually feel like.

I had hoped to mislynch Sky Paladin, who was my LYLO Designated Mislynch on the grounds of leaps in his logic and disconnect between certain points of his arguments. It never came to that, because Shadoweh was on to me and voted me. I couldn't afford voting Sky Paladin and turning it into a Bard Is Definitely Scum Because Shadoweh Would Have Quicklynched situation situation. I know Shadoweh is hard to influence, so I'd rather gambled on Sky Paladin.

Throughout the game I never expected to win. I was staying in mostly because Dormio willed me to. I do admit it was shitty to react in the way I did to the (perceived) passive-aggressive tones and what I felt was just unfair dickery for being voted by Scum. No matter what circumstances go on, there's a line that should be drawn and I went over that. My feelings were genuine but in this case, I should not have shown them and just stepped away. I sincerely apologise.


Outside of that, Mafia is a game where Scum have to manipulate the Town. When you're not the subject of the manipulation, it's easy to point out all the flaws. I think a lasting problem of online Mafia play is the peanut gallery criticising the players. Another lasting problem is that people don't consider Mafia a party game. It's a deception game that must be won at all costs, and whoever wins, everyone loses. This kind of attitude is poison and why I went on a long hiatus from playing Mafia here. More than "fixing" any kind of Townie reasoning, which is just fine in my opinion, we should look towards evaluating the way we experience the game and deal with the aftermath.

As Sky Paladin pointed out in the thread (correctly): Calling the opposing team shit and degrading their play is just not something you do. For the record I also apologised to Zakeri and CF7 for my attitude towards them. Should not have happened.


I found Sacchi to be by far the strongest player. I literally could not find any angle from which I could say Sacchi was Scum, and that is why the NK happened.


Quote
If Dormio hadn't messed up his PR town would have lost that game, IIRC, so it was just a PR flubup that let town win.

I stand by that it was Bardiche going over all Dormio's posts with a fine comb that let Town win. Dormio goofed up there, but unless someone had pointed it out, Town would still have lost. You're outright denying that a victory was won through stubborn refusal to give up and continuous combing over posts.



Edit: Obviously I will now never play Mafia again and quit while ahead.
« Last Edit: March 25, 2014, 03:16:01 PM by Bardiche »

Conqueror

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Re: Medaka Box Mafia - GAME OVER
« Reply #507 on: March 25, 2014, 03:30:35 PM »
Sky made the wrong decision in LYLO sure but he was on Bardiche before that. If I had hammered Bard on D6 instead of waffling onto BT then we wouldn't have gotten to that point. I take no responsibility for Serela's modkill because I didn't get to lynch him like I wanted.

Kudos to Bardiche for effectively using emotion to pull people off of him. Hope things turn out allright on your end.

I see mafia as a party game where we dryly point out each other's past mistakes while daintily eating tea and biscuits. Mistakes were made, see how you can improve on them, slap your opponents heartily on the back, and move on to the next game.

gg


On tue un homme, on est un assassin. On tue des millions d'hommes, on est un conqu?rant. On les tue tous, on est un dieu.
Every saint has a past and every sinner a future.

BT

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  • People say that I should
Re: Medaka Box Mafia - GAME OVER
« Reply #508 on: March 25, 2014, 04:15:30 PM »
Mafia's a mesh of fun and competitiveness. I'll apologize for forgetting about one of those sometimes. GG.

Shadoweh

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  • The STRONGEST Day Effect
Re: Medaka Box Mafia - GAME OVER
« Reply #509 on: March 25, 2014, 05:07:42 PM »
I stand by that it was Bardiche going over all Dormio's posts with a fine comb that let Town win. Dormio goofed up there, but unless someone had pointed it out, Town would still have lost. You're outright denying that a victory was won through stubborn refusal to give up and continuous combing over posts.
Stubborn refusal to give up sums up alot of victories. It was a Bardiche win~
I don't think I deserved to lose, but in a logic fight I'll probably lose every time. ;-; I'm sorry you were having such a bad time during all this IRL-wise. I would say I made clear how I feel but in retrospect I'm not sure I can actually read my posts..


Kitten4u: "I'll say it plainly: THERE IS NO WAY SHADOWEH IS SCUM!" - A Balanced Game of Mafia