Kaguya Table

[Juubi Neion]

Not too sure where to put this, so into the Center it goes!

<Tengukami> Doujin game discussion is in Help Me Eirin. Thanks!

http://www.walfas.org/?p=1133#more-1133
Please try and tell me this is not the best/most hilarious game of all time.

To those who do play: Are there any better builds than just Rage>NEETery>Tactics?

[aListers]

To be honest, I can't remember my strategies for playing it. I used to play it when I was waiting for 2006scape and desperatley needed a way to waste time. Kaguya table was one of the items on my ultimate time wasting kit. Unfortunatley the site that I posted it on has been taken down so I can't actually remember what was on it.

[an unmatched sock]

Why.

Why is this so amazing.

[yorgje]

Kaguya Table: a Review my Yorgje "Orgje" Porgje

Let me preface this review by noting that I had the absolute highest expectations for this game. It is common knowledge amongst those with whom I frequently converse that Kaguya is my favorite 2hu. You can imagine my delight, then, upon tripping over a thread such as this one! A combination of Kaguya, my one true love, and table, she whose efforts allow my posture to remain princess-worthy while embracing Kags in a tantallizing tango of grief and elation; I literally could not come up with a better OTP if I tried.

Unfortunately, my journey to the game was not entirely smooth sailing. First, a note about myself: although I'm not generally a huge stickler for ZUN's canon Gensokyo, I am, as you might have observed, a girl with a relatively lively imagination. As such, I have vivid internal images regarding what each of the 2hus looks like, acts like, feels like, eats like, sleeps like, drools like, etc. While I believe this has an overall positive effect on my interactions with Gensokyo, it also means that I experience harsh cognitive dissonance in the face of many of the so-called "may mays" that are associated with the various 2hus. One notable example of this is when artists depict Yuyuko as a titty-monster. Even when they draw her reasonably, attractively, Yuyuko just shouldn't have breasts. I mean, have you SEEN her PCB portrait? Or her portrayal in IN, TD,  or even any of the fighting games or fan works? Like, how can you even fly with tits that big, you would just get back pain. Big tits just AREN'T attractive! It's fine to be flat! It really is! You don't even know how many dudes I've dated, so stop judging me, okay?

Uh. Hmm. What was I saying... Oh right. NEETery. When I first read the word, I giggled a little bit because, well, you know, like, it sort of sounds like Nitori, but she frankly is probably one of the 2hus least associated with NEET culture, so isn't that funny ha ha HA? Well, I laughed. It's hard to talk about laughter in retrospect though. Especially since right after giggling a bit, I got a bad case of cognitive dissonance again via the "Kaguya a NEET" may may. I mean, seriously, she's a princess, her JOB is NOT to do labor! But that hardly means that she's not applying herself to productive tasks... okay let's not get into this, we have a game to talk about. Ugh. Anyways, so I was thinking about how that particular may may is the stupidest thing EVER, and I was about to go up and close the tab, but then some drool frothed out of my mouth onto my touch pad so I had to go get a tissue to wipe it up. After performing said maintenance, I had calmed down a bit, and decided that I might as well click the link. I mean, it was still Kaguya Table, after all, even if it was soiled by stupid may mays.

And then, trauma. Why the HELL was Kaguya flipping the table? In my mind, as the page was loading, I had envisioned a perfect love between Kaguya and her Table. During the day, perhaps she would innocently rest her potted bonsai on the table, her bare feet swinging freely where the sun never shines, but at night, they would snuggle up tightly, clinging to the warmth of life as they carried on through their eternally youthful days. What went wrong? What the HELL went wrong? After taking a couple minutes to return to my senses, I examined the image more carefully. The first detail that struck me as odd was the fact that the edge of the table on the ground closest to the viewer never seemed to move, which, in my long history of table-flipping, is NOT how real tables move. At first, I tried to interpret this as an artistic metaphor, but after approximately 67 minutes, I was unable to develop any idea with even a slightly well-correlated poetical isotopy, so I concluded that, via proof by no counterexample, this table's strange movement pattern was literally the situation being depicted.

Well, although I proved that the image was literal, it was still a non-constructive proof, as I had no explanation for it yet. To divine this element of my analysis, I turned to the animation of Kaguya herself. At first glance, she appears to be flipping the table with her arms, as you would expect a normal table flipper to do. However, it's also feasible that a casual, or even careful observer could mistake her arms for strands of hair. In fact, the upwards motion of those strands of hair would well parallel the motion of that silky black tapestry of hair flowing by her butt. While it might seem strange for her to have no arms, well, note that she also has no visible legs. I don't think this is too far of a stretch, and the important thing is that it solves the initial conundrum of the table. What's actually being depicted in this scene is that Kaguya is tickling the table with her hair, and the table is laughing SO HARD that it falls over BY ITSELF! Aw man, it's so cute. SOOOO CUUUUTTTTTTTTEEEE! It was so cute that I actually had to go to the bathroom for a bit.

Well, nothing came out, so I didn't flush the toilet and returned to my seat, ready to continue my analysis of the game. And that's when I noticed. The numbers. Oh hot damn, those NUMBERS. You know, last year, my class had a competition about who could add 7 repeatedly the fastest, and I was over twice as fast as the rest of my class! Needless to say, people were pretty awestruck. In fact, people held me in such high regard that no one talked to me for, like, 15 days after the fact. It was basically the best time of my life. But there was NO way I could keep up with the numbers next to my beautiful princess Kaguya. Like, HOLY CRAP, SO FAST. And they all changed at the same time, too! To find that my favorite 2hu, in addition to being prettier than me, was also better at math than me... WOW. Just, wow.

Anyways, in the end, I've found it to actually be a super cute and impressive game, and I've been casting loving glances at it every 5 seconds or so while typing this post, so my ultimate rating is 10/10. Perfect game, would schlick again.

[Karisa]

I think this has the highest ratio I've ever seen of addictiveness to purposefulness, if that makes sense.

Also, for whatever reason, if I have another page open in a new tab in the same window as that, or if I have full-screen DDC open (but not full-screen UFO), it won't run. However, if I have something else open in a different window, it keeps running.

Anyway, I was reading the comments. This is relevant, along with the comments below it. Basically, if that formula is correct, Rage is always superior to Tactics, while Rage and NEETery are effectively multiplied so it's best to raise both to similar levels. As for Impatience, however much you need.

Apparently there's also something called Enlightenment that converts all your experience into levels (except anything you've already put into Mastery), giving you millions of skill points, but apparently you need 20 Hardcore points for that, which requires 200,000 skill points, which at 12 points per second or so requires lots of waiting.

[MTSranger]

The key is to use Enlightenment effectively to uh power level and raise your stats to the millions and billions range. Then you will be gaining exp so fast that you can use Enlightenment again and again and again, each time profiting lots of stat points to buy more Enlightenment. At some point you will earn exp fast enough that you can easily buy the Master Slice instead of Enlightenment and that'd make Mastery points easier to get - you need to get to Mastery 100 to REBIRTH lol

And so you rebirth, and re-level, and do it again and again and again towards eternity.

[chirpy13]

Also, for whatever reason, if I have another page open in a new tab in the same window as that, or if I have full-screen DDC open (but not full-screen UFO), it won't run. However, if I have something else open in a different window, it keeps running.

That's odd, dunno why it doesn't stop when you play UFO.  The impression I got is that it stops running if the game is completely covered by something (ie. tab, window, fullscreen game, whatever).  If I put another window completely over the game, it stops going, but if I leave a few pixels at the end (I usually go just far enough to cover the mastery box, since there's some space to the left of that) it's okay with that

[Starxsword]

The key is to use Enlightenment effectively to uh power level and raise your stats to the millions and billions range. Then you will be gaining exp so fast that you can use Enlightenment again and again and again, each time profiting lots of stat points to buy more Enlightenment.

You can have more than 1 level up at a time?

[chirpy13]

You can have more than 1 level up at a time?

Enlightenment dumps all your exp into level ups.  Here's a before and after where it gives me 400 million level ups.

[Karisa]

That's odd, dunno why it doesn't stop when you play UFO.  The impression I got is that it stops running if the game is completely covered by something (ie. tab, window, fullscreen game, whatever).  If I put another window completely over the game, it stops going, but if I leave a few pixels at the end (I usually go just far enough to cover the mastery box, since there's some space to the left of that) it's okay with that

It doesn't stop running if I cover it with another internet window, though. Or if the computer goes to semi-sleep (monitor turns off but computer is still running) and the login window is there when I come back.



Anyway, look, rebirth. I left it on overnight (with Rage/Neetery of around 70,000) to reach the 200,000 stat points for Enlightenment.  Remember not to drop below 200,000 stat points at any time after that (except if you're spending them on Hardcoreness for another Enlightenment), or you'll have to wait again.

To use Master Slice quickly after building up tens of millions of stat points from spamming Enlightenment, I used tab to select Hardcoreness, held down space for a while (in increments of 1000 or so, but it took well over 15000 anyway), then tabbed to Master Slice and held space down on that.

...And now "the Adobe Flash plugin has crashed" while I was trying to upload the image, and when I reloaded the page, the rebirth button was gone.

[MTSranger]

OK here is the mathematical analysis for the stats allocation in order to maximize EXP gain.
First, according to the comment thread, the formula for exp gain is:

Exp / hit = (a + rand() * 3b)(c/10) where a = tactic, b = rage, c = neetery, rand() = random number between 0 and 1.

Amortized over time (i.e. on average), you get:
Exp / hit (average) = (a + 1.5b)(c/10)

Now suppose you have k points to allocate to a, b, and c.
First you allocate some numbers x and y to the first two stats, and then allocate (k - x - y) to neetery.
The exp / hit after you've allocated k points can be calculated like so:

Exp / hit (avg) = (x + 1.5y)(k - x - y)/10
Constraint: x >= 0, y >= 0, x+y <= k

At this point if you don't know any calculus, you can ask wolfram alpha to solve it for you by replacing k with a number:
Input into wolfram: z = (x + 1.5y)(1000 - x - y)/10 find maximum in region x>=0, y>=0, x+y <= 1000
Result: x = 0, y = 500
This means for 1000 points, you should allocate 0 to tactic, 500 to rage and 500 to neetery

If we then go through with the calculus (and make the observation that rage is more effective than tactic so x = 0 maximizes exp/hit):
Suppose x = 0
z = (1.5y)(k-y)/10 = 0.15y(k-y) = 0.15(yk - y^2)
dz/dy = 0.15(k - 2y) = 0
k - 2y = 0
k = 2y

We find that the most effective strategy is to divide stat points evenly into rage and neetery

[ARF]

Is it possible to lose by investing only in neetery and saving up for enough hardcore that Kaguya ends up dealing 0 damage?

[MTSranger]

I think the minimum damage is 1, but then it gets divided by hardcore again for exp, so in theory your exp gain could be essentially 0.

Anyhow in theory you could save up lots of hardcore to carry over to facilitate easy rebirthing
EDIT: tested. Actually I think some rounding takes place such that you can't master slice below a certain point.

Current stats:

[chirpy13]

To use Master Slice quickly after building up tens of millions of stat points from spamming Enlightenment, I used tab to select Hardcoreness, held down space for a while (in increments of 1000 or so, but it took well over 15000 anyway), then tabbed to Master Slice and held space down on that.

Alternatively you could write a wonderful ahk script, hover your mouse over the hardcore button, press your "a" key, and go do something else while your lovely macro mashes away for you.

[Karisa]

Is it possible to lose by investing only in neetery and saving up for enough hardcore that Kaguya ends up dealing 0 damage?

I don't think so. Even if it isn't limited to 1 exp minimum, you're allowed to spend hardcore if you have at least 5 (assuming there's no check that prevents you from spending the hardcore if you don't have any impatience levels to refund, but if you're gaining nothing I'd expect you'd have enough hardcore to Master Slice anyway).

Current stats:

Do the stats cap at 2^32, or did you manage to line them up that way intentionally?

[MTSranger]

Do the stats cap at 2^32, or did you manage to line them up that way intentionally?

There is no cap.

[Karisa]

I don't think so. Even if it isn't limited to 1 exp minimum, you're allowed to spend hardcore if you have at least 5 (assuming there's no check that prevents you from spending the hardcore if you don't have any impatience levels to refund, but if you're gaining nothing I'd expect you'd have enough hardcore to Master Slice anyway).

OK, I tried it. Kaguya does indeed do 1 damage and gain 0 exp if you have enough hardcore (which carries over after rebirth); however, you can spend the hardcore to reduce it. When the hardcore reached 12, Kaguya started gaining 1 exp every 3 hits, meaning fractional exp is recorded.

Now my hardcore is at 2, and Kaguya is still only gaining 1 exp every 2 hits... it'll take a while to get her levels high enough again. Probably not worth the time, considering that now I've seen basically everything Kaguya Table has to offer.

[DATAMOSHLOLIRAVE]

OK here is the mathematical analysis for the stats allocation in order to maximize EXP gain.
First, according to the comment thread, the formula for exp gain is:

Exp / hit = (a + rand() * 3b)(c/10) where a = tactic, b = rage, c = neetery, rand() = random number between 0 and 1.

Amortized over time (i.e. on average), you get:
Exp / hit (average) = (a + 1.5b)(c/10)

Now suppose you have k points to allocate to a, b, and c.
First you allocate some numbers x and y to the first two stats, and then allocate (k - x - y) to neetery.
The exp / hit after you've allocated k points can be calculated like so:

Exp / hit (avg) = (x + 1.5y)(k - x - y)/10
Constraint: x >= 0, y >= 0, x+y <= k

At this point if you don't know any calculus, you can ask wolfram alpha to solve it for you by replacing k with a number:
Input into wolfram: z = (x + 1.5y)(1000 - x - y)/10 find maximum in region x>=0, y>=0, x+y <= 1000
Result: x = 0, y = 500
This means for 1000 points, you should allocate 0 to tactic, 500 to rage and 500 to neetery

If we then go through with the calculus (and make the observation that rage is more effective than tactic so x = 0 maximizes exp/hit):
Suppose x = 0
z = (1.5y)(k-y)/10 = 0.15y(k-y) = 0.15(yk - y^2)
dz/dy = 0.15(k - 2y) = 0
k - 2y = 0
k = 2y

We find that the most effective strategy is to divide stat points evenly into rage and neetery

its just a flash game

[I have no name]

its just a flash game

We take our flash games seriously around these parts  :V

[Andrew]

The title had me curious about this game, and now it has gotten me addicted too! Must... get... 100... mastery...