Touhou Relationship chart, New Edition

[Branneg Xy]

How many other characters can turn into mist?

Re-reading the entire discussion I saw none responding to this query so I'll be doing it. So far only three characters are known to turn into mist: Suika(oni) ,Remilia and Flandre(vampires).] It is  speculated Nue might be able to "show the fear of mist/fog" to certain people  but in the end it would only amount to a situational psionic/psychlogical influence, not true shapeshifting.

[Imosa]

It's been a while since an update but I've got one here.
http://www.mediafire.com/view/?ibw5ui16rp5n3w5
There may be some lines hidden by the backgrounds. This is pretty much the final layout and all that's left now is to fill in remaining information, also making a better legend.

[Imosa]

The latest update can now always be found in this media fire folder (not sure why i didn't just do this originally).
I've fixed some things that were pointed out to me on reddit and started writing a few descriptions. Writing sucks.
Some things in particular that I'm trying to figure out.

• Is the current relationship between Yuyuko and her tree alright? I actually know very little about this.
• Does Patchouli dislike Suika or Oni in general?
• The whole group of hermits are rather a mess. I dunno who's crashing a Miko's (Futo, Tojiko, Sagia), if Miko considered Divine as a Saint, if Futo qualifies as a Hermit in her current state (shes about to be unknown), someone mentioned everyone lives in the Great Mausoleum but I'm pretty sure that place was destroyed, ect. I dunno.
• What should Marisa's relationship with Patchouli be?
• How should I relate Cirno, Dai, and the Mischievous Fairies

Also there has been a suggestion to just remove the magician species and I rather agree. It seems rather dumb. Does anyone know if LP had anything in mind with that one?

[Sagus]

Mein opinions:

• Is the current relationship between Yuyuko and her tree alright? I actually know very little about this.

It's fine the way it is. Yuyuko's body seals the Ayakashi and in turn this doesn't allow her to reincarnate.

• Does Patchouli dislike Suika or Oni in general?

It's probably oni in general. Going by what the wiki says:

Patchouli has no books on the oni, but dialogue shows she knew what oni were before meeting Suika. Her wariness towards oni subconsciously existed before that, as it is revealed in Sakuya's ending that despite claiming she didn't know about oni, Patchouli knew an oni caused the feast, revealing a subconscious knowledge on the matter. Prior to that, every once in a while, Patchouli would order coffee made from good beans instead of the usual red tea. Sakuya did not know why, but after discovering this subconscious trait, she finally understood. Oni are weak to fried beans. Patchouli only consciously realized she was supposed to use fried beans, specifically, for the coffee in her own ending, but by then, she's also realized it'd be better off used as danmaku. It is unclear if she realized that she subconsciously drank coffee all along as a preventative measure to oni. It is unknown why Patchouli developed this wariness towards the oni.

• The whole group of hermits are rather a mess. I dunno who's crashing a Miko's (Futo, Tojiko, Sagia), if Miko considered Divine as a Saint, if Futo qualifies as a Hermit in her current state (shes about to be unknown), someone mentioned everyone lives in the Great Mausoleum but I'm pretty sure that place was destroyed, ect. I dunno.

Seiga is almost certainly not staying at the same place as Miko, Futo and Tojiko; going by SoPM, she has no camaraderie with them, and goes around Gensokyo nagging people she finds interesting. Miko seems kinda wary of her too.

SoPM and her official profile puts Futo's species as "Human? (a taoist who self-identifies as a shikaisen)", so maybe it's best to leave her as unknown, or maybe human and hermit. Miko is confirmed to be an hermit (During the titular symposium in SoPM someone mentions that she'll have to fight shinigami eventually because of that). "Saint" appears to be more of a title than a species... but I'm really not sure.

Well, in some endings, Miko and crew decide to leave the Mausoleum because they didn't want to live under a youkai temple, but it's unknown if this is canon. Maybe Hopeless Masquerade will say something about it.

• What should Marisa's relationship with Patchouli be?

Patchouli <--Steal Books------Annoyance--> Marisa =P

• How should I relate Cirno, Dai, and the Mischievous Fairies

Well, Cirno and Dai are shown playing hide and seek in Oriental Sacred Place, so I don't think anoyone will complain if you put them as friends. She appears as a midboos in GFW, but danmaku duels don't really mean actual animosity between the parties involved.
Cirno and the Three Fairies seem friendly rivals, I guess. They play together in OSP, and then there's the whole of GFW. You could just put them all as "acquaintances" too, I suppose.[/list]

[Tiamat]

About Futo's species from her SoPM article, tho it's not really as specific as anyone would like:

An ancient human who cursed herself to sleep for a very long time. She is attempting to become an immortal hermit by way of escaping from the cycle of reincarnation through a temporary death. But in actuality, it has not gone that well, and she is being watched by shinigami as expected.

Miko's is more explicit:

Currently, she's a hermit who has surpassed humanity. However, it appears that she hasn't completely severed her connection to the secular world, and has a tendency to become involved with human society. This is most likely a remnant from her days as a ruler.

Miko and friends moving out is canon, and generally implied to be the place they live in the various endings to Ten Desires.   From Miko's article:

If you're ever pursued by youkai, she should provide refuge at her residence. However, the entrance is hidden and no one knows where it is... (*3)

Also from Part 1:

Oh, yes. I forgot to mention this but I don't normally live in Gensokyo. .   (snip)   I live in a space I created myself. Living somewhere that nobody can bother them is the essence of what a hermit is.

[Imosa]

In regards to Miko's location along with the rest of the hermits, I found out about this place called Senkai. Among it's interesting things are the list of residents.

[Raikaria]

In regards to Miko's location along with the rest of the hermits, I found out about this place called Senkai. Among it's interesting things are the list of residents.

Since SoPM states Miko attempts to distance herself from Seiga, and Seiga loses interest in things very quickly, it's very unlikely that Seiga lives in Senkai. [Also she never showed up there in any ending]

Yoshika is not a hermit, so she certainly wouldn't be there, since it's a special place just for hermits.

And yeah Patchy seems to dislike Oni in general. Unless I'm mistaken, she doesn't react well to Yuugi in SA either.

[Imosa]

Since SoPM states Miko attempts to distance herself from Seiga, and Seiga loses interest in things very quickly, it's very unlikely that Seiga lives in Senkai. [Also she never showed up there in any ending]

Yoshika is not a hermit, so she certainly wouldn't be there, since it's a special place just for hermits.

Just because its a special place for hermits doesn't mean that others can't go there. I think we can rule out Seiga but Futo and Tojiko are a little more difficult.

[Tiamat]

In page 23 of Wild and Horned Hermit Chapter 3, Reimu and Marisa are shown briefly visiting Miko and Futo in what's presumably their residence. There's a third person in the pic with Miko and Futo, but you only really see the bottom of her dress, her legs, and what looks like the end of a scarf or shawl. Given that Seiga has a shawl, that's possibly her (and hell if I know who else it could be), but there really isn't enough of her to be able to confirm for certain.

Futo is practically confirmed to be living with Miko in that pic. Tojiko isn't, but this is kinda a case of "Where the heck else would she live?", I imagine.

[Clarste]

In page 23 of Wild and Horned Hermit Chapter 3, Reimu and Marisa are shown briefly visiting Miko and Futo in what's presumably their residence. There's a third person in the pic with Miko and Futo, but you only really see the bottom of her dress, her legs, and what looks like the end of a scarf or shawl. Given that Seiga has a shawl, that's possibly her (and hell if I know who else it could be), but there really isn't enough of her to be able to confirm for certain.

Futo is practically confirmed to be living with Miko in that pic. Tojiko isn't, but this is kinda a case of "Where the heck else would she live?", I imagine.

Uh... what? First of all I'm sure you meant Forbidden Scrollery and accidentally wrote the wrong manga, but the picutre you're referring to clearly shows Futo playing go with Seiga. Hair loopies, you know? In case you think those are actually Miko's "ears" if you look closely you can also see her hair stick. Although frankly I figured her posture would've given it away earlier.

Now, while there are certainly interesting implications regarding Seiga playing nice with Futo, the picture also completely neglects to tell you where it's taking place. Is it in Senkai? The human village? It's impossible to tell. Also impossible to tell: whose house it is (at least we know it's someone's house from the context of the story). Could be Futo's house, could be Seiga's house, or it could even be the house of some nameless Go parlor owner who runs his business out of his home. So... we really can't learn anything from this picture.

[Sagus]

Also, considering that it's Seiga playing, the one standing behind her is most likely Yoshika; short black dress, and the "shawl" is actually her arms, stretched foward, like she usually has them.

[Prime32]

About Futo's species from her SoPM article, tho it's not really as specific as anyone would like:

An ancient human who cursed herself to sleep for a very long time. She is attempting to become an immortal hermit by way of escaping from the cycle of reincarnation through a temporary death. But in actuality, it has not gone that well, and she is being watched by shinigami as expected.

Miko's is more explicit:

Currently, she's a hermit who has surpassed humanity. However, it appears that she hasn't completely severed her connection to the secular world, and has a tendency to become involved with human society. This is most likely a remnant from her days as a ruler.

IIRC, shikaisen are a step below earthly hermits, but can be promoted to the regular kind if they prove themselves (and you need to do this before you can be further promoted to celestial). So my guess is that Miko has achieved this but Futo hasn't, and Akyuu doesn't consider shikaisen "real" hermits.

Either that or she's treating a prince with more respect, Miko glossed over how she became a hermit, or she can't understand what Futo is saying. :V

[Tiamat]

Argh, I need to stop doing research at 2 AM in the morning.

Yea, that's actually Seiga with Futo now that I look at it again. So I went back to the Ten Desires endings and Miko and the narrative explicitly state that Miko and "her followers" (in one ending) or "the rest" (in another ending) moved to Senkai, and Miko also refers to it as "our home".  So the main questions would be if the endings can be taken for their word (though I personally think the fact that it's consistent in two endings is more than enough for that) and if anything has changed since then.

"the rest" would imply more than just Futo, but whether or not it means Futo + Tojiko, or Futo + Tojiko + Seiga is a bit more uncertain.

The Enenra that Reimu and Marisa were chasing is supposed to only go to households (instantly, to the point where Sakuya being at the shrine teleported the thing to the SDM, if I recall correctly). Therefore, it would seem to be a safe assumption that Futo and Seiga were at their household. However, this assumption is kinda blown out of the water by the fact that Reimu and Marisa finally cornered the thing at a Soba Shop, which probably isn't a household.  ...but it might be.  I'm at an alternate computer and thus can't check nor am I particularly knowledgeable on how this youkai is supposed to work (or Japanese myth in general).

[Sagus]

Just because Seiga was there doesn't really means that she lives there; she could just be visiting. It'd be weird for her to live with them, considering Miko's wariness of her and the fact that Akyuu states that there's no camaraderie between them.

[Tiamat]

Yea, there's definately no confirmation. I'm not sure how wierd it'd really be, though, since it's constantly stated that Senkai and its dojo is a dojo suitable for hermits, as opposed to just... suitable for Miko. My own guess is that Seiga spends her living time there when she isn't wandering around all over the place, but she's usually wandering around all over the place so the time she spends there isn't too much. Kinda like that literally next door neighbor who lives in the same apartment complex as you that you don't really care for yet is there anyways, but is on cordial enough terms that you'll stop and play a game of Go with her in the lobby if there's nothing else to do.

Of course, that's just one of many possibilities from someone who doesn't know whether or not a dojo can be like an apartment complex in the first place.

[Imosa]

Thanks a lot for the help on this. Miko, Futo, and Tojiko living in Senkai while Seiga has access but chooses not to live there, sounds pretty good. I'd really like to confirm this myself but I can't find the Touhou 13 endings (I guess that's because of ZUN's whole rule, isn't it). Does anyone know where I can read the endings?

[Tengukami]

There's a wiki for it floating around on Google. I haven't checked it out myself.

[Imosa]

There's a wiki for it floating around on Google. I haven't checked it out myself.

I know about this place but it only goes till 12.8.

[Tiamat]

http://vgboy.dabomstew.com/other/TenDesires.txt

Here you go.  It's the first thing that shows up when you google "Ten Desires Endings"

[Imosa]

http://vgboy.dabomstew.com/other/TenDesires.txt

Here you go.  It's the first thing that shows up when you google "Ten Desires Endings"

-_- So I may look like an ideot for not having thought of that but I did try "Touhou 13 Endings".

Anyway, update. At this point writing descriptions is just about the only thing that needs to be done. More information is on the actual chart.

[Raikaria]

Just because its a special place for hermits doesn't mean that others can't go there. I think we can rule out Seiga but Futo and Tojiko are a little more difficult.

Futo and Tojiko are a type of hermit I think, even if one is a ghost, she followed the ways, and are Miko's followers, it's likely they are there.

[Sagus]

Tojiko was sabotaged by Futo, so she didn't actually complete the ritual correctly. She's just a "thunder calling ghost" now (ex vengeful spirit).

[Imosa]

Another day and inching ever closer to completeness. I think most things have adequate descriptions at this point. Tomorrow I'll probably put some thought into what to do with the background and try to finish up the color choice.
update

[Imosa]

Update. Wasn't able to get done quite as much as I wanted. I have no idea what to do for the title. It seems wrong to break standards the way LP did in his chart.

[Starxsword]

http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Ruined_Western_Mansion ;again it's probably because they are performing(PCB,BAJiR,POFV,PMiSS) or looking for new sounds(POFV;Lyrica's Scenario) most of the time. Too much on my posting-plate ,so space and edit...

Yeah, I know the wiki says Ruined West Mansion. However, there is no source. I am unsure where the wiki got that source, so I never mentioned it. Is that description part of the instruction booklet in the game that got translated or something?

@hermits: Miko, Futo and Seiga may not be true hermits. At least, I don't believe shikaisen is considered as the true path to hermithood.

EDIT: One interesting thing about Higan is that it is specifically mentioned to not be in Gensokyo.

[cuc]

"Ruined Western Mansion" is not the official name, but a generic term, and how one would most likely call it in Japanese. The Prismrivers' profile called it "poltergeist residency" 騒霊屋敷. For this chart, "Ruined Western Mansion" should be sufficient.

You have made good progress on the chart. It's my time to chime in. I'll focus on the relationships now, and examine descriptions later.


Locations:
Renko and Merry lives not only outside of Gensokyo, but also in near future. It's better to put a stronger emphasis on how they are from an entirely different world.

Iku's profile says she lives "inside the clouds", while the name of her stage is 玄雲海, which seems to have been translated as "Mystic Clouds" in the English patch? I think you should just use "Inside the Clouds".

Kasen doesn't live in a pocket dimension. Her house is located on the Youkai Mountain.

I think Rumia can be placed in the Forest of Magic, but that's not very important.


Characters:
Further remove the fanon parts: no need for Lily Black, as it's just Lily White in different clothing; the description for the dolls shouldn't mention Shanghai and Hourai, perhaps something like "still not sentient" would be better.

Remember to add Namazu's in-game sprite, and change its background to "fauna". (Given its insignificance, I'd actually put in major characters like Tsukuyomi before Namazu.)

It's inappropriate to mark Utsuho as half-divine. According to Kanako in SoPM, she's more comparable to a "mobile shrine". In a way, Shou is much closer to divine than Utsuho (I still don't think Shou should be marked "Divine").

There's no reason Futo is not categorized a hermit. Shikasen is definitely a type of hermit.

The generic "kappa" character feels clunky, but I can't think of a better way to represent it without making large changes, either.


Relationship:
IIRC, there's nothing in canon that says Yukari treats Chen as a pet.

Remember to change Miko's relationship to Seiga to "Former Teacher" for consistency, and other consistency checks such as "Friends".

The "Hostile" relationship between Sakuya and Alice is unnecessary. They both attend Hakurei Shrine parties, after all, and since Alice prefers talking to humans, she must have talked to Sakuya a lot.

I'm also ambivalent about the "Dislike" line between Sunny and Lily. Sunny feels a bit bad about being defeated by Lily once, nothing more than that, which is quite unlike the relationship between Momiji and Aya.

[Tiamat]

Yukari refers to Chen as "our cat" to Ran in Subteranean Animism (indicating she views Chen as pet if the translation is anything to go by), but also tells Ran to "debug her" (indicating she views Chen as a shikigami).  So it could be both... or neither, I suppose.  That and one brief remark in an IN ending that Chen's a handful are basically the only Yukari Chen storyline interactions that canonically exist to my knowledge (though Perfect Memento states Chen's subserviant to Yukari and IaMP or one of the fighting games states she "borrows" Chen to use in her specials that use Chen)

[cuc]

Huh, I still need to find the sources of these quotes.

Other things: according to PMiSS, the heaven realms are above Netherworld, in the same dimension it's in. Not sure if that still stands, and no one cares anyway.

BTW, the categorization of "fauna" and "fiend" is a genius idea.

[Imosa]

Yeah, I know the wiki says Ruined West Mansion. However, there is no source. I am unsure where the wiki got that source, so I never mentioned it. Is that description part of the instruction booklet in the game that got translated or something?

@hermits: Miko, Futo and Seiga may not be true hermits. At least, I don't believe shikaisen is considered as the true path to hermithood. *shrug*

EDIT: One interesting thing about Higan is that it is specifically mentioned to not be in Gensokyo. Cool, noted

"Ruined Western Mansion" is not the official name, but a generic term, and how one would most likely call it in Japanese. The Prismrivers' profile called it "poltergeist residency" 騒霊屋敷. For this chart, "Ruined Western Mansion" should be sufficient.

You have made good progress on the chart. It's my time to chime in. I'll focus on the relationships now, and examine descriptions later.


Locations:
Renko and Merry lives not only outside of Gensokyo, but also in near future. It's better to put a stronger emphasis on how they are from an entirely different world. I can add in the fact that they are from a different time, I just wasn't sure where. To be sure though, they aren't from a different world.

Iku's profile says she lives "inside the clouds", while the name of her stage is 玄雲海, which seems to have been translated as "Mystic Clouds" in the English patch? I think you should just use "Inside the Clouds". Alright

Kasen doesn't live in a pocket dimension. Her house is located on the Youkai Mountain. Are you sure? I'm fairly certain she lives in a pocket dimension. As Marisa found out, you can't just walk to her house. I suppose that pocket dimension is accessed through a location on Youkai Mountain.

I think Rumia can be placed in the Forest of Magic, but that's not very important. I heard she floats around literally anywhere. Her location being in the "Lump of Darkness was just because that's what LP did.


Characters:
Further remove the fanon parts: no need for Lily Black, as it's just Lily White in different clothing; the description for the dolls shouldn't mention Shanghai and Hourai, perhaps something like "still not sentient" would be better. Lily Black does appear though, the least I could do was explain why. At this point she's not even her own character.

Remember to add Namazu's in-game sprite, and change its background to "fauna". (Given its insignificance, I'd actually put in major characters like Tsukuyomi before Namazu.) The chart doesn't use in-game sprites. I'm trying to contact KirbyM to see if he'd be willing to make a Namazu Walfa, and if not I guess I'll do it at some point. Does Tsukuyomi actually play that big of a role in the story? I mean Namazu actually showed up, for one thing.

It's inappropriate to mark Utsuho as half-divine. According to Kanako in SoPM, she's more comparable to a "mobile shrine". In a way, Shou is much closer to divine than Utsuho (I still don't think Shou should be marked "Divine"). That's true, I remember this. I guess I'll change it.

There's no reason Futo is not categorized a hermit. Shikasen is definitely a type of hermit.

The generic "kappa" character feels clunky, but I can't think of a better way to represent it without making large changes, either. If it helps I have a sprite planed for them.


Relationship:
IIRC, there's nothing in canon that says Yukari treats Chen as a pet. That's what it says on the wiki

Remember to change Miko's relationship to Seiga to "Former Teacher" for consistency, and other consistency checks such as "Friends". Thanks

The "Hostile" relationship between Sakuya and Alice is unnecessary. They both attend Hakurei Shrine parties, after all, and since Alice prefers talking to humans, she must have talked to Sakuya a lot. This also comes from the Wiki. It may be a minor point but it does seem canon

I'm also ambivalent about the "Dislike" line between Sunny and Lily. Sunny feels a bit bad about being defeated by Lily once, nothing more than that, which is quite unlike the relationship between Momiji and Aya. Is that how it went? Maybe I should erase that relationship for the same reason I erased the relationship between Cirno and Dai

It seems that the wiki does place Shikaisen as a kind of Hermit. Why is this an issue again?

Other things: according to PMiSS, the heaven realms are above Netherworld, in the same dimension it's in. Not sure if that still stands, and no one cares anyway. Sorry, I fail to see the point there

BTW, the categorization of "fauna" and "fiend" is a genius idea. Note my idea, and I'm actually not a big fan of the Fiend catagory. Are Oni really any different then other Youkai?

I'd really appreciate help with descriptions. The format of things is still up for discussion. I figure the most important things to mention are character traits, as appose to things like position, but I really don't know.

[cuc]

Kasen used magic to make it so you have to follow a very specific path in order to find her house, it's a very common trope in stories.

It's very considerate of you to not use in-game sprites. ZUN would approve of that. But has KirbyM ever drawn Unzan?