Adorable Game of Mafia (Everyone wins!)

[GMOFucker: Makin' GMOs To Fuck 'Em]

hi i am writing this post riding a train whoooaaaa #yukariswag

this laptop is dumb
can't control plus c or v
kinda annoying

Omba disappearing is remniscient of his reaction to the D3 wagon on him from Townest. Where is he? Shadoweh's post doesn't dissuade me, it's not impossible for Serela to break his meta and the vote patterns still point toward them as scum.

IHNN's BT attack seens shotgunny and shallow to me since it fails to consider that BT was a swing vote for the Serela wagon, basically guaranteeing it as the day's lynch since BT wouldn't be around to switch off. I don't think IHNN makes sense as scum either, though, for similiar votal analysis - there is little reason to bus early D1, and Serela's IHNN vote was the vote that put IHNN at L-2. There was a chance of IHNN's wagon falling apart, no reason for scum!Serela to push his buddy that much. This looks like infighting to me, pls stop etc

I'm bugged by people throwing out "Wouldn't lynch <person who isn't under pressure at all>", not a huge scumtell but totally useless -> fluffy and a bad habit.

In my cases against BT and Omba I have made clear my stances against IHNN and Rai anyway, as town -weighted sides of the WIFOM.

Having trouble parsing this due to flowery rhetoric. Accepting his defense is reasonable but doesn't actually make him townie, so it's odd for you to just assume IHNN and Rai as town instead of null. Giving newer players free passes and scumhunting based on people attacking them looks awkward when there's no reason to clear them.

[Shadoweh]

Omba disappearing is remniscient of his reaction to the D3 wagon on him from Townest. Where is he? Shadoweh's post doesn't dissuade me, it's not impossible for Serela to break his meta and the vote patterns still point toward them as scum.

You know, Serela said he was a changed man too. :V People don't really change. I'll have to take your word for the first thing though, I was too busy giggling and drawing Macho Cop pictures to notice him disappear. I can think of another swing vote that happened the other way round though that no one seems to think is worth bringing up.

[Omba]

##Vote Kilgamayan
Has been on me all of D1, but only starts actually pushing people to vote me D2 - now that there's already a lot of them willing to vote me, anyway.
#381 says he has a town read on everyone but two people he presumably sees as being related to me (can't tell for sure why he suspects BT). Pray tell where that sudden influx of town reads is coming from?
More elaborate case in a bit because :prod:.

Other things. Neko needs to die at some point before LyLo, possibility of scum acting is there, although I'm willing to give him pass based on being the counter-wagon for now.
Oh right, some defense.
Wanting a counter-claim: I was damn sure Neko was scum and wanted to secure his lynch. The only thing that would have convinced -me- to vote Serela at that point would have been a counter-claim. Hence I asked. Possible things that could happen: Counter-claim -> scum lynch (counter-claim by scum would not happen). No counter-claim -> scum lynch if I was right about Neko, otherwise scum lynch on D2.

Him hanging onto the Rex vote despite considering the possibility of infighting resembles an excuse to avoid Serela switch.

That I ask does not mean I consider it likely (or at all). I asked because I wanted Shadoweh to reconsider (and ideally switch her vote to Neko).

Pondering over things has taken a long while, but I should be mostly back on track now.

More Alcohol
Demanded the brain grimly
The liver cursed

[I have no name]

BT was a swing vote for the Serela wagon, basically guaranteeing it as the day's lynch since BT wouldn't be around to switch off.

Townie motivation: scummiest person at the time
Scum motivation: Look at all the town cred I could get  BV

I don't see that as either a towntell or a scumtell, so I didn't include it.

[Shadoweh]

Other things. Neko needs to die at some point before LyLo, possibility of scum acting is there, although I'm willing to give him pass based on being the counter-wagon for now.

X

I hope your more thurough post makes me feel more vilified in defending you because seriously.

[Kilgamayan]

The fates do not want
Me at the comp on Day 2.
Thanks, power outage.

Shadoweh: I am fundamentally more interested in what suspects say about flipped scum than what flipped scum say about suspects. (Before you ask, I do care about discussing what Serela said about Omba, but only insofar as to convince people that what Serela said does not make them impossible as a scum pair.) On the subject of suspects discussing flipped scum, I will say that Omba having Serela as a second suspect behind Raitaki before changing his vote to having Serela as a second scum suspect behind NNR is extremely similar to how Scum HW handled discussing Scum Zakeri in Dorf Fort Mafia. (Can't really link while on the phone, but I discuss it in my opening Day 2 case, so feel free to check back in the archives for it.) I will again point out that your #227 went unanswered (as far as I can tell; rereading to be sure doesn't really work on the phone.)

I will also say that my case on Omba is as feuled by rage over the way he handled the end of the day just as much as your defense of him is feuled by feelings that he is town combined withjudgment-clouding arrogance from being correct about Serela. As I am sure you will claim the latter is completely untrue, let us try to avoid such rude handwaves of cases people have put meaningful effort into in the future, please.

---

I don't think I'm in an appropriate position to really call Omba's vote an OMGUS, but I will at least point out that his initial explanation for it makes zero effort to tie in the scum flip. For the record, I am pushing this case harder now because (a) it is Day 2 and not Day 1 and I allow myself more words and posts on Day 2, and (b) Shadoweh has been a vocal opponent of tye wagon while using reasoning I think is flawed (with PX similarly so).

As for where my reads came from, I spent my Night 2 reread realizing I had completely forgotten PX and BT were even playing the game, and I always find such people suspicious whenever I realize that about them. NNR is town due to being the D1 counterwagon to a flipped scum. IHNN and Raitaki are probably town because of how quintessentially newbie they are; they're not as grass-green as Vhaltz's Irene was, but they're still both pretty green. Shadoweh is probably town (despite the number of things she's said throughout the game that have irked me) because scum would be suicidally moronic to slam their rolecop on D1 with such a good case in this setup. They now have zero defense for the voyeur that isn't a dumb luck kill and the instant the voyeur spots Scum Shadoweh killing someone all her town credit goes up in smoke. HW and Affinity are my weakest town reads, but I still believe them town due to agreeable words and effort (HW more so for this, but Affinity gets bonus points for continuing to pursue someone I'm almost dead sure is scum when one scum has died already).

I would address how bad the suggestion that NNR needs to die before LYLO is but Shadoweh's reaction tells me I don't really need to go into detail. Let's just say NNR should be near/at the bottom of everyone's scum lists and tack this onto the Omba case.

[I have no name]

The voyeur says what actions were taken against someone, not what actions they took.  I honestly don't see the usefulness of the role other than validating claims.

[Kilgamayan]

If the voyeur targets someone, see that only one other person targetted them, and the target die, what do you think the voyeur will conclude?

[I have no name]

If the voyeur targets someone, see that only one other person targetted them, and the target die, what do you think the voyeur will conclude?

Does the voyeur give the players who targeted?  My understanding was just the actions taken on a person.

[Kilgamayan]

Or wait, the descripton doesn't match my normal definition of the voyeur.

@Mod: Does the voyeur see who targeted their target?

[edible]The voyeur only sees what abilities targeted someone.  It is not a watcher.[/edible]

[Shadoweh]

It's kinda weird that Serela wouldn't even make a jab at PX. It's possible he forgot PX was playing.
PX, considering the situation with you never telling us why Serela was town and your vote being in the wrong place, I would like an explanation why you thought he was town at the time.

Also stop posting haikus in the signup thread instead of posting in the mafia. >:< AND STOP IDEAING ME!

Cut: I hope you will note I did not include any 'he's town because I say he is' statements in that post. My judgement today is based on reading what people say and what the most likely conclusion is based on that. Both Serela's flailing poking and the way that Omba drew attention to himself at the last minute point towards someone else being guilty. I will admit I'm not as sure of it as I was of Serela being guilty.

[Kilgamayan]

Yes, I don't actually think you're letting being right about Serela go to your head. I just don't appreciate you posting that particular perspective of the Omba case, because it makes me feel like you're not reading my posts.

[Kilgamayan]

[edible]The voyeur only sees what abilities targeted someone.  It is not a watcher.[/edible]

Then you need a better name for it, Edibutt, becuase the Voyeur is the Werewolf Watcher equivalent. >:[

This changes things a bit, though I still don't think Shadoweh is scum because her case was really solid.

[GMOFucker: Makin' GMOs To Fuck 'Em]

Townie motivation: scummiest person at the time
Scum motivation: Look at all the town cred I could get  BV

I don't see that as either a towntell or a scumtell, so I didn't include it.

Scum want to avoid scum lynches whenever possible, especially in a set-up so full of info roles as this one. There was a possibility of the Serela wagon dissipating, BT placed himself in a position where he couldn't help it do so and was basically helping scum get lynched for the rest of the phase. Damning the rolecop to a D1 lynch would probably not be worth the cred since it's liable to wear off later on in the game depending on how people approach it.

[GMOFucker: Makin' GMOs To Fuck 'Em]

I can think of another swing vote that happened the other way round though that no one seems to think is worth bringing up.

Also, what are you referring to here? I'm not getting the implications.

[Omba]

I don't think I'm in an appropriate position to really call Omba's vote an OMGUS, but I will at least point out that his initial explanation for it makes zero effort to tie in the scum flip.

The fact that Serela completely ignored you was already mentioned. The fact that you had him has your 2nd place suspect pretty much all day is there, but the same goes for me, so I can hardly see that aspect as pointing to you being scum.

Shadoweh: Just remember it later, if it becomes necessary. Ok? Great.

Anyway. Still not done with pondering over stuff, but I very much doubt this day will end without me claiming in any case, so have a claim at least.
Flavour name is Kisume hopping in her bucket; role is Town Voyeur. Have a picture.
I did not crumb this role at any point.
I targeted Kilga N1, no actions were performed on him.
With the rolecop gone, the Voyeur's only use is breaking claims, so I think claiming early here is a good trade-off.

[Shadoweh]

I am pretty sure you know exactly what I'm referring to and implying there, Mr. Swing Vote.
Cut by uhm, if there is a 'real' Voyeur they should claim, a guarenteed scum lynch would be tech. If not it looks like shit just got derailed.

[Affinity]

Giving newer players free passes and scumhunting based on people attacking them looks awkward when there's no reason to clear them.

It was the way people (omba) were pushing them and advancing things that were not there; he handwaved Rai's scumhunting attempt without considering it, with him being his vote?  That counts for something I hope.

Serela was an easy bus. IHNN was an easy bus. Serela's only legitimate push was on IHNN. IHNN's only legitimate push was on Serela, bar Omba. ED1 IHNN was a case of cautious scum, LD1 IHNN was Die Serela Die with Omba on the backburner. His Serela jump remains the most likely bus, what with the inconsistent read and the need to get a stance ASAP.

BT sounds like he spent too much time at a bus despot.  Not fond of this case full of non-sequiturs and effect without cause.  Voting your fellow scumbuddy on page 5, D1, when there are valid competing wagons and without a plan to switch off, is extremely rude and suicidal even from me.  I don't know why you are automatically assuming this when scum can fight the good fight a better way. 

Really nothing to add.  If Kilga or huhwhat are scum, they aren't making any mistakes thus far. 

ninja'ed by claim

[Kilgamayan]

The fact that you had him has your 2nd place suspect pretty much all day is there, but the same goes for me, so I can hardly see that aspect as pointing to you being scum.

For me, Serela was second to you, but ahead of NNR. For you, Serela was second to NNR. I preferred the scum lynch, you preferred the town lynch. This is why the two are different. That and I didn't switch from Person X with Serela as my second choice to Person Y with Serela as my second with an inadequate explanation as to why Person Y overtook Serela.

For all that this may be irrelevant given the claim.

[Affinity]

EBWOP: Uhhh... 'when there are very likely competing wagons'

[PX]

Would Omba really let Serela go do all that utterly stupid stuff if they were scum buddies? You'd think he'd either coordinate it better or just lynched him off on the spot? I do not believe Omba is scum. On top of that, i dont see how asking for the cop Counter claim is that much if a scumtell, especially since with a godmother still alive Cop isnt too powerful. I'll go post more stuff soon because phone reading is a pain.

Cuts: >_> Shadoweh that'll take a while because screw phone posting.

More cuts: Omba claimed what. I believe his claim, as trying to out a Voyeur is absolutely stupid for scum, and nothing short of a counter claim wi(ry.

[Kilgamayan]

Would Omba really let Serela go do all that utterly stupid stuff if they were scum buddies?

This rationale is incongruous with your vote on Affinity.

[NekoNekoRex]

Would Omba really let Serela go do all that utterly stupid stuff if they were scum buddies? You'd think he'd either coordinate it better or just lynched him off on the spot? I do not believe Omba is scum. On top of that, i dont see how asking for the cop Counter claim is that much if a scumtell, especially since with a godmother still alive Cop isnt too powerful. I'll go post more stuff soon because phone reading is a pain.

Cuts: >_> Shadoweh that'll take a while because screw phone posting.

More cuts: Omba claimed what. I believe his claim, as trying to out a Voyeur is absolutely stupid for scum, and nothing short of a counter claim wi(ry.

A player who becomes an easy target because of doing scummy stuff has brought the lynch upon themselves for doing said scummy things. If someone is being scummy, they should be lynched. The current meta would rather make an excuse for the player as being 'an easy target' or 'does it every game, ignore'. If your normal play is scummy, then you will be shown it by being lynched every time.

[Omba]

Care to explain the relation between these two quotes with a few words of your own, Neko?

Kilga: The reason I gave was for why I did not make use of the scumflip in the case on you. It was not a defense against the case on me.

[NekoNekoRex]

I feel like Omba's scumminess is attributed to him being scum, blowing it off as "But would a scumbuddy REALLY do that?" Is WIFOM and also a bad reason to toss the giant mound of suspicion to the wayside.

[Shadoweh]

I feel like Omba's scumminess is attributed to him being scum, blowing it off as "But would a scumbuddy REALLY do that?" Is WIFOM and also a bad reason to toss the giant mound of suspicion to the wayside.

You know that thing you asked me before about 'confirmed town theory'? There is guarenteed to be at least one Voyeur in this setup. If no one counterclaims Omba, Omba is guarenteed to be a Town Voyeur, as in confirmed town by default. Like PX said, the voyeur isn't as useful as the other roles right now for scum to out (I'd out the tracker personally). So Omba probably ain't gettin lynched no more.

[I have no name]

##Unvote
No one seems to be counterclaiming, therefore Omba is 99.99% town with scummy play LD1.

##Vote: PX
Hypocritical arguments/cases+what Kilga said+what I said after the BT wall.  Would write more but don't really have time.

[NekoNekoRex]

no crumbs, Voyuering the player he wants lynched because I'm sure your top scumpick will definitely get lynched SOMEHOW, if not targeted by the cop who'll confirm if he's scum anyway

sounds real legit to me

I suppose Ill be forced to reread though if nobody counterclaims.

[Raitaki]

##Unvote
In the middle of DnD right now, so I'll only be reading along, not much posting.

[Omba]

no crumbs, Voyuering the player he wants lynched because I'm sure your top scumpick will definitely get lynched SOMEHOW, if not targeted by the cop who'll confirm if he's scum anyway

With the scum rolecop dead, the sole use of the voyeur is targeting a player that gets copped and/or tracked. To either break a claim if someone claims to be either and I know he -didn't- target that player on a night he claims to have done so.
Or to make someone somewhat more likely to be town if he gets targeted and there's no claim of a scum result afterwards. (Pretty weak because there's a 50/50 chance of a false negative for both roles currently).
Hence I needed to pick someone I thought was likely to get targeted and unlikely to get nightkilled (because getting tracked to the dude that gets killed -> pretty much definite lynch; incidentally I picked Pesco at first, good thing I changed my mind).

So yes, you are forced to re-read.