So You Want To Be The Townest Mafia (Thread 1)

[Conqueror]

BT: I'll admit I'm being somewhat lazy right now. I don't have as much time to put into the game as I would like. Only real reason I kept my vote on Omba was that it was the best thing I had at the time.

I don't like Dorian's vote on capt. h. Describing capt. h as voteparking on Dan and laying low feels like mudslinging, + capt. h is pretty obvtown imo. Dorian hasn't been very involved in the game otherwise.

##Unvote
##Vote Dorian

Bob needs to put down a vote.

Other stuff in next post.

[Conqueror]

Conqueror at first votes Omba and renews his vote twice with new questions, both here (box issue), and here (case issue), and I get the feeling that the questioning is stretched beyond its course and that his vote is wasting away as a vote-park, since he doesn't seem to publicly address Omba's answers.

I only asked Omba what he'd do with the box because of this post, which didn't take a position either way. As for the rest, not sure what you're looking for. His recent content is decent enough.
I have no name is one of those people I'm not going to be able to read until more stuff has happened. His vote is on one of my null reads, so :shrug:

I felt that Serela and Affinity were scummy, but having lack of evidence I realized that there may be reasons not related to gameplay.  PX influencing Serela posts could have been one of the reasons, just due to playstyle.  I was not trying to imply I thought Serela was scum because he has a hydra with PX, more that Serela having a hydra with PX may be influencing my impressions.

That said, @IHNN: How would Serela hydra-ing with PX mean anything for the slot, since Serela is the only one posting? PX's playstyle is going to have approximately 0 influence on this, so I'm just wondering what your reasoning was for that.

I don't think Dan is scum. The box holder vote is silly and unnecessary, but his thoughts read genuine. Waiting on Dan to appear and give his scumreads.

[Omba]

Kitten4u: Using the box as a second lynch amounts to a coinflip on whether it actually is a bomb. If it isn't, the best case is we don't get anything out of it. Worst case it directly hurts town.
Does Dorian not read as confused to you? And how is BT's RAINBOW read on Conq a good thing?
Also, you mention that I'm still the worst of three people you mentioned earlier, but more town than Dorian. Does that make me your second pick for a lynch after Dorian?
If so, what exactly is it that makes me your second pick, apart from what you had mentioned at the time you voted me?
Furthermore, any stuff about people other than your two picks and the wagons?

Affinity: Why Dan over Serela?

--cut by Conq

[Dormio Ergo Sum]

I'm here to say that I'm with Kitten on the whole box-as-lynch thing being a good idea.
Now I'm not here because platypii are weird.

[Conqueror]

For me at least, one difference between Dorian and BT is that BT was involved in early game discussion, and his content there gave me a slight town read.

Using the box as a second lynch amounts to a coinflip on whether it actually is a bomb. If it isn't, the best case is we don't get anything out of it. Worst case it directly hurts town.

Not sure what you're trying to suggest here, if anything. I just say we Occam's Razor the thing.

[Kitten4u]

@Omba

You're saying we should give up what could be a freaken huge boon to the town just because there's a chance it might not be?  That's like saying we shouldn't lynch because we might hit town. :|
He does not.  BT's vote comes from a place I can understand.  It's not strong, but I fail to see how it's scummy.
Yes.  There's still the box stuff from earlier, and I think your current vote is awful.  There's also the whole, not wanting to use the box as a lynch, but I'm debating whether this is scummy or misguided at the moment.
Nope.  If I had more stuff to say I would have said it.

[I have no name]

That said, @IHNN: How would Serela hydra-ing with PX mean anything for the slot, since Serela is the only one posting? PX's playstyle is going to have approximately 0 influence on this, so I'm just wondering what your reasoning was for that.

I felt Serela was scummy and went looking for potential reasons.  That was one of the ones I came up with, which was also a reason why I may be getting a false positive.

Nameless, conversely, seems to be passive-aggressive and talking about things (reads on me and Serela) 2 pages ago; his failure to take Bob's new post into account for his vote feels fishy, but so far this is still consistent with what I've seen of him as town.

I didn't see anything to respond to and the post didn't change my opinions.

Something to add to m last post that I just realized now: rawr, any reason for voting me other than "bad play" which, by your definition,  half the playerlist could be voted for, yourself included.

[Conqueror]

I felt Serela was scummy and went looking for potential reasons.  That was one of the ones I came up with, which was also a reason why I may be getting a false positive.

>_> So basically, gut, okies. Although what do you mean by a false positive?

[Omba]

Conq: What I'm saying is that treating the box as a vig shot will yield a read on the player throwing it no matter what the box then actually does, provided the player he targeted flips at some point. Whereas using it as a second lynch is only beneficial if it actually does blow up and kill the person holding it.
Also, it's not like everyone could just pass the box around on a whim without any reason. So chances are it will end up on one of the wagons and if it blows up, will yield us a second sort-of-lynch anyway.
Should a scum be the last person to throw it, that's nice too. If it blows up, that means he'll have been forced to actually flip someone; someone he has been accusing of being scum, at that.

Kitten4u: That's... not like saying we should not lynch because it might hit town. The opposite, actually. Using your comparison, if we use it as a lynch and nothing (or something other than BOOM) happens, that's equivalent to a no-lynch. If we use it as a vig, we get a better read on everyone that had the box at some point. They'll all be forced to show us who exactly they -really- want dead.
Dorian is btw what I would expect a confused newish player to post like. Minus the part where he doesn't change his vote when he notices his own confusion. Definitely not someone to lynch for that.

[I have no name]

>_> So basically, gut, okies. Although what do you mean by a false positive?

I'm saying I don't know Serela's alignment, so if he's town and I thought he was scum then it'd be a false positive.

LLD, Dan, thoughts on how the box should be used?

Omba, using it as a lynch gives an opinion from everyone, at least everyone who decided to give input on it.  Using it as a vig only gives input from those who had it-meaning not as many.

@mod, can we get a votecount?

[Kitten4u]

I fail to see how declaring who we would vig would give us better reads over forming wagons.  How is saying I want ______ to die any different with box passing?  Especially since there's a good chance not everyone would get it?  Especially since scum passing it to buddies is viable since their buddy could pass it to someone else?  Especially since coming up with a reason to lynch one person isn't all that difficult?

I don't understand how going for a second lynch isn't "worth the risk" with the info we have.  The day is longer than usual, the clues in the mod post point to it being a bomb, both of these point to it being likely that the box will kill someone.  And even if it doesn't, we'll have wagons to look at.  And since most everyone seems to think it's a bomb they'll be treating the wagons as though they're actual lynch wagons.  You're going to have to explain to me how your plan is better.

[Omba]

A vig can kill anyone he wants to. A lynch means you must convince half the other players, too. Hence a vig kill eliminates all the need to give up on lynching someone for the sole reason that you can't convince enough other players of your view. For this reason the kind of read one yields is not like the other. As for not everyone getting a chance to throw the box, the same is true for a lynch; only one more than half the players actually decide a lynch. Though I suppose the less time until end of countdown there is left, the less people will get to throw the box, so I guess using it as a sort of lynch would become more viable the longer we wait on deciding.

Also, you can make a case that seems reasonable enough to be justified, but not good enough that it will actually lead to a lynch.
If you get to throw the box, there is a very real possibility that it will actually kill the player you're having a case on, regardless of whether your case would likely lead to a lynch or not.
So if scum do get to throw the box last and it does blow up, that means they'll either have to adjust their votes so the last thrower is on the largest wagon, or he'll have blown up a smaller wagon (with hence less players other than him implicated in the townies death). Plus, if they try to pass it amongst themselves, they'll have to either be voting one of their own at the point they get the box, or adjust their vote accordingly.
Changing votes means they'll need to give a reason for changing their vote, which in turn can be read for intent, especially if the scum that passed the box to another scum later gets lynched.
It seems very difficult to me to anticipate who would get the box at what point, so scum would not have much time to do any adjusting before one of them gets the box.

As for the info, it seems equally likely to me that the mod is trolling us with the box. He definitely is at least to some degree, otherwise we would know what that thing does beforehand. That alone is reason enough for me to not trust any info we have about it, safe for the timer.

[Shadoweh]

Can Someone Post So I Can Finish The Sixth Votecount

Affinity (1): Serela
capt.h (2) : Action Dan, Dorian G
Action Dan (3): Lady Lambdadelta, Dormio, capt.h
I have no name (1): Dr. Rawr
Mr. Bob (1): I have no name
Conqueror (2): BT, Affinity
BT (2): Chaore, Omba
Dorian G. (2): Kitten4u, Conqueror
Dormio (0):
Kitten4u (0):
Dr. Rawr (0):
Omba (0):
Chaore: (0):
Serela (0): 

Not voting: Mr. Bob

Holding the Box: Affinity

With 15 alive, it takes 8 to lynch.
There are 64 hours remaining.
Day End Countdown

Box Timer: 16:20:15
Box Timer Countdown

[Kitten4u]

So how does this give us better information if it does blow up.  How does this give us better information if it doesn't blow up?  It seems to me everything you said is basically the same thing you'd get out of wagon analysis, only not as strong.

[Omba]

For one, people act differently when their actions have larger implications. A vig shot weighs heavier than a vote; it will force the box-holder to consider his read more carefully. Hence the action he eventually takes yields a better read.
For another, all but the last (maybe last few) player that gets the box will basically be throwing a lynch vote quite some time before a vote could actually lead to a lynch. Since no one knows who will be around to pass on the box and who won't. Hence we will basically get votes with real intent to lynch spread over a longer time.
For yet another, a lynch (usually) necessitates consolidating votes from other wagons. People are forced to choose someone other than their top suspect. This is not the case with a vig shot / the box. Although I've already mentioned that last aspect.

[Kitten4u]

Hm, alright.  I disagree, but I understand now.

[Chaore]

@Affinity: that's not BT's case at all though?

He thought Conq was just lazily pushing the case in his last post, and I was thinking he had abandoned the case and wasn't really pushing anything or anyone. I... don't see why I would be sympathizing with him here. Our positions were not the same.

[capt. h]

On the box - I think lynches and vigs are both more accurate that lynching someone based on plurality. I'd rather hit scum than gain information on scum. Though admittedly, a dud would be better handled by a lynch where at least we'll get something.

On Dorian

This is just to get the box topic out of the way, everything else will come later when I've actually read the game, not just skimmed it

More will come after I had lunch and more time to read.

>_>

I can see LLD's point.

As mod, I had a lot of trouble reading because I already knew all the scum.

MAFIA IS HARD WHEN ALL THE INTERESTING PEOPLE AREN'T TALKING.

What's my point? IT'S 2 AM. I am going to bed now. When I get back, I want Dan and Dorian being LOUD, because loud people are infinitely easier to figure out. And darn it, Dorian is dropping as many boring lurk scum tells as anyone, but at least he eventually comes back when he promises content.

[Mr_Bob]

@Omba: Affinity is still in charge of the box.  Speculating seems pointless.

Also, pre-empting this before it becomes an issue: I'm generally more conservative with my vote.

Need sleep.

[BT]

No, "I think my vote is perfectly fine" doesn't cut it when I've just cut it apart from basically every direction.

Conq's vote on you isn't unjustified, it's just awkward. So far all he's been doing is asking questions and sharing suggestions. Which were fine, yes, but notice that his only real involvement in this game was his by the by comment on how his vote is staying on your because *reason*. I thought it's lazy scumhunting, but it may be an attempt to be subtle as well. Which is just as bad, if not worse.

You keep 'tearing apart' my case without noticing my case.

You're also doing that thing when you add things to your case instead of looking elsewhere, and that's the lazy way out. And, no, 'looking elsewhere' does not involve commenting shortly on other wagons, it involves scumhunting more than one player!

Chaore is also pretty guilty of this. It's like you're giving yourself the luxury of doing nothing at all simply because I exist.

And yes, Omba, the bit about adding the explanation to your case after the case seems scummy because you had no reason to not include it originally, and in my opinion you simply thought of the explanation later, making your vote pretty damn weak.

I am admittedly lazy this game and will ~look for scum~ shortly.

[BT]

Oh yeah, ##Unvote since I need to think this over.

[BT]

Reread some more.

Now I really want Dormio back. His opinions have been interesting thus far.

I'm not getting scum vibes from Dorian, although I'm not getting much else. Can I have the quick version of whyheisscum.png?

I'm having similar difficulties from IHNN. Since your opinions are everywhere, can you go over them and why you're currently voting Bob?

##Vote LLD

Out of all the people that may be clinging to their votes right now, she is quite probably the worst and I'm surprised it's not getting much notice. Half of her posts reference a very early accusation of Dan, and aside from joining the Scum!Dorian camp, without explaining why or how does it affect her Dan vote (it apparently doesn't), she has done absolutely nothing else.

[I have no name]

BT, I outline my reasons for voting Bob in this post, and my reasons haven't changed since then.  Mr. Bob has posted very few times, with very little content per post.  It seems like a player silently trying to get through D1, having just enough opinion to be above notice, and posting about once per thread page to maintain the illusion of being active.

Checking the time, the box will trigger at 4.  Thankfully I don't have anything planned for the hour on either end of it.  I want as many people here as possible at the start of what many seem to think will be "Day 1-2" to be able to discuss what happens, whatever happens.

LLD had a very strong first post, and I'll agree she hasn't added anything new since then.  I'd be more accepting of it if she'd link back to said post, like I did here because it's easier than digging through a growing thread.

Honestly BT, I understand and agree with basically everything you've said up to now, aside from voting me ED1 while I was having dinner.

[BT]

The post in question. It's not a bad post, but she's done nothing since.

Who would you say is scum, if not Bob?

[Affinity]

@Omba:  No content is better than bad content, and with Dan's being effectively absent for more than 24 hours now if I'm not mistaken, I guess I'll prefer Dan's lynch at the moment to Serela's.  There's also the issue where Dorian seems to be defending Dan indirectly by voting capt.h, and though I don't think it's that bad on its own, Dan's flip might shed some light on it.

I feel a miasma of laziness drawing down upon town, and that most of the energy present is still focused on the box, which I have already said that I would keep until near the deadline.

Not sure about the Dorian case in general, it's interesting how he gets charged for 'mudslinging' and stuff in his interesting case against capt.h when all Conq has to do is to change his vote onto some politically correct wagon with terse, incomplete reasoning.  I don't believe the proponents of that case has addressed the hypocrisy aspect of Dorian's case on capt.h's vote for Dan, which has an element of truth to it.  While I suppose that Dorian's ignorance of everyone else other than his target is irksome for the usual reasons, I don't think he's scum.

Reading capt.h as prompted by Dorian, there seems to be a few blind spots in his distinction between the loud and quiet.  It's quite baffling why he singles out Chaore and Bob for not being centre stage and not Conq, LLD, and other related people who are arguably as quiet, if not quieter, at the moment.  Would like an explanation for his selectiveness.

As I said above, Conq looks worse for that vote jump.  His private 'town reads', one of which (on BT) came out of nowhere in his justification as to why Dorian over BT, and his myriad questions on others which I don't see him using the answers to, just adds to that murkiness around his thought processes in general, and that's pretty scummy.

[capt. h]

Dorian's suspicious because he's kinda lurky and I feel like he's trying to avoid drawing attention to himself.

On more traditional tells, he promised more content after a reread, but the content basically concluded "I suspect I might be voting for a townie". He hasn't shown what he thinks about anyone other than me in his last 2 posts either, and the primary driver for his vote as he explicitly states is that he thinks he needs a vote on someone before he sorts things out, which he didn't get around to doing.

Course, Dorian's behavior doesn't change Dan's Uber lurking wothy behavior one iota. I kinda get the impression that Dan isn't posting because he knows if he doesn't post, there's a very good chance enough votes will move to a wagon that isn't him that he won't die in 7 hours. Hence scum Dan being scummy.

- cut by Affinity -

LLD is loud. She always is at the center of attention. Even her quiet posts demand attention, because they make blind unsupported assumptions like "Dorian is probably scum".

I need to reread Conq though. There's a lot of quiet people. But Chaore and Bob were easy to single out at the beginning when I thought talking about the box was town, and discouraging box talk was scummy, because they were completely outside the discussion.

[I have no name]

@BT
ActionDan: hasn't done very much, not very scummy but definitely not reading town.
LLD: had 1 good post as you said, nothing else really since.
Lurking isn't inherently scummy, active lurking does seem scummy to me.

I'm reading Affinity as town, BT as town, Kitten4u as town and Omba as town.  Everyone not previously mentioned is null at the moment.

I'm not sure what to think of Dan's disappearance.
For reference: Dan's last post: (21 hours ago)

-cut by capt. h-
Right, Dorian is doing the same stuff that Dan is doing, albeit better because he didn't register for me at all.

[ActionDan]

It was impossible to post yesterday.  :/  Parents etc.  I was able to keep tabs on the game every so often though but without a through re-read I only garnered a vague sense of how this game is panning out.

Capt.h, Serela, and Rawr are all town.

I was worried about Conq for a while but he gave his reads and hes using bro-meta in my favor so Conq is probably town.

BT and Dorian and Omba and IHNN don't sound scummy to me but I haven't read them deeply yet.

Affinity is more meh I have to read him deeper.  on one hand I'm happy he's gunning for me but his complaint against serela while I believe was originally a misunderstanding is something he's sticking too.

K4U sounds logical but pings my gut.  Chaore just pings my gut. 

Bob.  Questions didn't seem to go anywhere but I'm getting any scum vibes.

LLD and Dormio are the scummiest to me. 

You're right! I did misinterpret what Dan meant by his box vote.
Well, that just further reinforces my current belief that Serela is just weird and that Dan should die.
Rather than Dan giving a single town read and nothing else, he's just given us a single scum read with no reasoning and what appears to be no intention to follow up so far.
He expands on his town reads but fails to give any reasoning so as to why Affinity should die. I also find his inability to place a proper vote weird.

Dormio is mischaracterizing the weight of my vote on affinity.  Obviously someone who hasn't posted yet is null so leapfrogging to "fails to give reasoning as to why aAffinity should die" means Dormio isn't thinking about the rational I would have to Affinity which to me reads that Dormio's reason for voting me was contrived and ignored the warning signs townies get when voting a person 'Why did this guy do this action?'

Considering Affinity to be town is fine and all for Dan, but he's one of the people who have made absolutely no effort towards finding scum so far. He's, like, totally content to just sit back and blabber on about the box whilst contributing absolutely nothing of value to the town.

This ignores that I did state two town reads of mine. and really is talking about the box 'contributing nothing of value?'

##Vote Dormio

I gotta go to class in 10 min, I'll go over LLD in a few hours.

[Dr Rawr]

idk if this affects your case or not but didnt dormio claim miller?

[Serela]

while I -really- don't want to just have become an obvtown and then skip out on the game like meiya did last game, I feel really out of it right now x_x I keep sneezing/out coughing up globs of yellow goo and I'm just bleh.

I'll try to post something more substantial later today but I'm just going back to bed right now (and yes I mean as in later april 2nd, not later d1)

while I'm here though, I think I may have been overreacting about BT, I think people should stop devoting all their attention on what to do with the box given that Affinity has made it clear he is not planning on doing anything but what he wants to with it, I think I might be seeing something off about Omba but it might just be me being sick, my opinion on scum right now is definitely still Affinity >> Dan, aaaa sleepy where is pillow