Touhou is harder :V Derp thread III

[Wriggle]

Tbh I also find TD kinda boring... it's still fun, and better than MoF for sure. But idk, it's kinda boring, and it has the worst Extra of the series (Mamizou's spellcards are so bad). And similar to Zengeku regarding PCB, due to finding it not that much entertaining I don't practice it much, and that makes me bad at it. Seriously, Kyouko fucks me with no mercy, she's almost as much troublesome as Seiga for me, and due to that she feels harder than Futo. I know this is lack of practice, but she just loves to clip the shit out of me. :V And Mamizou feels like the hardest Extra boss for me due to this lack of practice (I have exactly 5 clears on her, one for each character and another one no-focus with Reimu, because it was the only Extra missing for me having all Extra modes from main windows games cleared under no-focus condition).

[Seppo Hovi]

If you want to say IN has good spells, though, well be my guest.

Okay!

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Let's notice that there are replays missing for several attacks, I did all of these replays this morning and I was unable to hand in replays for most of them, due to me being overly bad and unable to figure out how they're done.

1 -  蛍符「地上の彗星」 -   I'd refer to some border team Lunatic runs here. It's neat and cool, funny way of grazing the waves. I think Dotsie does it too, but I'm not entirely sure where I first came up with the tactic.
2 - 灯符「ファイアフライフェノメノン」 - This is a neat thing, and I enjoy doing it. There are also other tactics for it, and you can do it in several ways in order to benefit maximally from different shot-types' abilities. It's a whole world of optimisation, brought to you by the Spell Card value meddling!
3 -  灯符「ファイアフライフェノメノン」 - Lunatic verison of the same spell has an insanely hard supergrazing thingy which I'm unable to pull off. Refer to a WR, it's really, really neat! They might do it on normal and hard too, I'm not overly sure about those.
4 - 蠢符「リトルバグ」 - Several ways of grazing this one, already on easy. Very neat card for figuring grazing techniques. It has a different method for every one of the four difficulties, which makes it really beautiful, four times. One pattern, four cards, or more if you want to experiment around!
5 - 隠蟲「永夜蟄居」 - Beautiful and hard. Three different methods for every three difficulties that face it. I'm unable to pull off any of them correclty. Refer to WR's here!
6 - 声符「木菟咆哮」 - Now this one is interesting. There might be ways to supergraze it varying on difficulties. It's interesting, and there lies some optimalness within it yet to be reached. I'm not sure if it ever will be fully reached, though, since humanly limits of hand-eye coordination start to get on the way here. But seeing the way you guys are going to, anything is possible in the future, I'd say.
7 - 毒符「毒蛾の鱗粉」 - I enjoy dodging this one. Also it's fun how there are different methods for grazing it a bit, especially on higher difficulties.
8 - 鷹符「イルスタードダイブ」 - Termendously interesting, even on easy. Micrododging and avoiding breaking familiars... neat. Timing the end of the card correctly (you have ~~1 second, it's a very large frame of time so it's not overly hard, but I find it neat) is cool as well. Oh, and it can be supergrazed, especially on the higher difficulties. Very interesting one, refer to several WR's and attempt it out yourself a bit, I'd say!
9 - 夜雀「真夜中のコーラスマスター」 - Fascinating card. Some optimisation lies within it, possibly Maybe I don't know, but it seems so. Maybe I'm wrong. I was wrong. Instead of that the card before it is interesting.
10 - 産霊「ファーストピラミッド」 - Ah. Two ways of awesome. The supergraze here is very hard to be consistent at (for me, at least), and it also has the end-PoC which needs to be done correctly. Oh, and you can graze it at different locations, depending on which shot-type are you using. Easy AM's Alice, for example, is very neat.
11 - 野符「武烈クライシス」 (And it's four variables!) - Interesting, static pattern. The familiars open several possibilities for either shoot-milking or supergrazing. Fun to learn.
12 - 国体「三種の神器　郷」 - Grazing this baby is something I'm unable to comprehend. Refer to a WR. Beautiful~.
13 - 終符「幻想天皇」 - The replay here is st and Eternal's method. It has different, less optimal but easier, method as well. Good card. I'm not entirely sure of the other difficulties' variables, but I believe they might have some shenanigans as well. Obviously it also opens possibility for strong unfocused shots with all those familiars going around. Just remember not to break them!
14 - 未来「高天原」 - Nothing special, I guess, but it was fun to timeout back when I did it.
15 - 夢符「二重結界」(And it has variables for every difficulty!)  - Look at THAT graze. It's pretty simple on easymode, simple enough for even me to be able to do it, but it gets more interesting on higher difficulties. Refer to a WR and enjoy.
16 - 散霊「夢想封印　寂」 - Fun to dodge! Also, you must PoC-end it WITH possibly maximal bullet cancel. Might not be overly easy, eh?!
17 - 夢符「封魔陣」 - MM-HMM! This one is awesome. I like it. Unfocused Sakuya has a hard time here.
18 - 回霊「夢想封印　侘」 - Grazing this one gets rather intense, or so I've heard. Refer to replays!
19 - 境界「二重弾幕結界」 (and it has variables for every difficulty, I believe) - Reimu can run into you, will shoot amulets you need to dodge and has external clutter-spam on difficulties above easy. Interesting one, for sure.
20 - 神霊「夢想封印　瞬」 - This shit is interesting. I've never tried it much, but all those bullets look damn promising. Refer to a WR.
21 - 魔空「アステロイドベルト」 - Fun to dodge.
22 - 黒魔「イベントホライズン」 - I could be your erotic event horizon. Ohh yeah, this one. Now, now now. There's the grazing, there's the unfocusing and avoiding familiars that can collide with you. There's the PoC-end. Lovely.
23 - 光符「アースライトレイ」 - You can micrododge this on normal. I find that funny.
24 - 幻波「赤眼催眠(マインドブローイング)」 (and the variables) - Refer to a WR and blow your mind, kid.
25 - 散符「真実の月(インビジブルフルムーン)」 - Shit gets wicked on WR-level optimalness. Watch Border team easy WR and try not to open your mouth.
26 - 天丸「壺中の天地」 I'm only able to carry this one out on easy, I believe. Has varibales, is neat-y neat. Remember to look at the familiar count for a GOOD ENDING, eh.
27 - 蘇生「ライジングゲーム」 - I like dodging this one quite a bit!
28 - 操神「オモイカネディバイス」 (and variables) - There's a way to supergraze it, but nobody uses it since it's too hard! Now how's that!
29 - 天呪「アポロ１３」 (Variables!) - Now look at this motherfucker. It's like doing the 4th last spell-huggery several times in a row. Damn, Eirin. Damn.
30 - 秘術「天文密葬法」 - I love dodging this one.
31 - 禁薬「蓬莱の薬」 (Has variables that have different tactics for each) - Oh yeah, this one is awesome. I don't know why people seem to hate it so much, but it is. Maybe it suffers from the Hourai Jewel-syndrome, meaning that it needs at least 500 (was it 500? Dotsie, help me, I don't remember!) tries to fully understand the sheer awesome power within it.
32 - 薬符「壺中の大銀河」 - Differs for different difficulties. I'm not content with the way I graze it. It's interesting, hard, and intense. Refer to a WR!
33 - 神宝「プディストダイアモンド」 - I enjoy dodging this one.
34 - 難題「火鼠の皮衣　-焦れぬ心-」 (and variables) - This one... supergrazing potential. Positioning potential. Check the easy Border Team WR.
35 - 難題「蓬莱の弾の枝　-虹色の弾幕-」 - You could spend the entirety of the card up there! All of the seconds!
36 - 神宝「蓬莱の玉の枝　-夢色の郷-」 - Now, I always disliked this one quite a bit. But I must say that I do find it interesting how you can graze it in so many different ways. So many techniques. So much possibilities. If I played Lunatic more, I'm sure I would start to slowly love this one.
37 - 「永夜返し　-初月-」 (four variables!) - Grazing potential!
38 - 「永夜返し　-子の刻-」 (four variables!) - Positioning and grazing potential!
39 - 「永夜返し　-丑三つ時-」 (four variables!) - Grazing potential! Has a pretty damn cool name on hard, eh?
40 - 「永夜返し　-寅の刻-」 (four variables!) - Now this shit is just plain HUGE. Man. Damn. Shit. I'm out of words here. I'm not consistent with it. I'm... it's epic. Really nifteeh one.
41 - 「永夜返し　-世明け-」 (four variables!) - I like dodging this one!
42 - 旧史「旧秘境史　-オールドヒストリー-」 - Now that's some streaming over there. Nice grazing potential by positioning! (refer to WR)
43 - 転世「一条戻り橋」 - I don't know what the fuck or how the fuck is this one done, but it sure is what the Caved-meme means. Keine literally fucks your ass. (refer to WR)
44 - 新史「新幻想史　-ネクストヒストリー-」 - Even more intense streaming. YEAH. (refer to WR)
45 - 不死「徐福時空」 - Look at the grazing here. Holy sweet damn. (refer to WR)
46 - 滅罪「正直者の死」 - Eye-fuckingly what-the-hell. Shit's gone off wheels over here, I don't know. Maybe it's easier than it looks, but from my experience, it's hard as HELL.  (refer to WR)
47 - 虚人「ウー」 - All the possibilities and different tactics open for this one... man. Opens the sheer difference of different shot-types. I also enjoyed timing it out without vertical movements, back in the day. (refer to WR)
48 - 不滅「フェニックスの尾」 - I like dodging this one. It's a bit of a glowshit, but I still do like the dodging. 
49 - 蓬莱「凱風快晴　-フジヤマヴォルケイノ-」 - Volca-oh-noes is always as interesting to dodge! 
50 - 「パゼストバイフェニックス」 - FUCK YEAH GRAZING. FUCK YEAH TIMING.  (refer to WR)
51 - 「蓬莱人形」 - Grazing. Intenseness. Dodging. Micro-movements. What a card, dude. What a card.  (refer to WR)
52 - 「インペリシャブルシューティング」 - Now then, I'm sure you're familiar with the supergrazing going on over here. Damn, dude. That's some intense shit. (refer to WR)
53 - 「季節外れのバタフライストーム」 - Fun to dodge, has a nice rythm to it.
54 - 「天網蜘網捕蝶の法」 - I like the way this looks.
55 - 「無何有浄化」 - Totally nice timing and streaming here.
56 - 「夢想天生」 - Not my favorite, but had some enjoyable grazing right there!
57 - 「待宵反射衛星斬」 - It gets a bit tedious as it takes so long, but the timeout phase has some fun portions.
58 - 「グランギニョル座の怪人」 - This is THE memoshit, dude. The memoshit. Looks nice.
59 - 「西行寺無余涅槃」 - This is beautiful. Fun. Impressive. Intense. Annnh, I love how the pattern alters on ultra, but let's not go over there.
60 - 「深弾幕結界　-夢幻泡影-」 - Let's finish the game with a puzzle. Yesh.

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I'm warmly waiting for your list of neat TD cards you can have nice optimisation for! I'm sure you've figured out something else than X X C for the WR-region of that game, haven't you? Or, if you find IN easier than TD LNBNT, sure, I'll give you that basic bomb-it-all survival run is quite easy compared to that. But I'm also rather confident of the fact that it'd take you more effort to take 6MNB IN lunatic than TD lunatic. Oh and you have five misses you can place for your TD lunatic run, and use the deathtrance to skip five attacks. Futo's first, Tongling Yoshika, some Miko's non, most of the penultimate card.


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Nice score Zil.

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Dotsie = Dot_asp

[Zengeku]

This post makes me all warm and fuzzy on the inside. Thank you.

[Yatakarasu]

(Mamizou's spellcards are so bad).

I kinda like her cards. 
I think they are pretty fun to dodge and pretty unique.
Her non-spells do suck though. First few are waaaaay too easy. Last three can be super annoying. (well at least for me)

[Lepetit89]

Jesus Christ, you guys put an awful lot of heat into an argument that boils down to personal tastes and preferences.

Edit: Actually, I suppose that's exactly why. Guess things would be much easier if people didn't try to dismiss ach other's favourites as boring and what not.

[Zengeku]

http://replays.gensokyou.org/download.php?id=25797

Died to everything possible in the worst ways possible. Still, trying to pacify the Prismrivers is fun. They are a lot harder when you are not allowed to shoot. Still, many 'dupid deaths in this run. Watch it if you want a good laugh. And don't put the replay comment into google translate.

Sepp, can I speed-kill Lily White and then pacify the rest? That might be more interesting than just pacifying easy-peasy Lily White. I'll check if it's worth doing.

[RNG]

wat

I've said TD has a shitty scoring system and I'm not going to say anything to the contrary.  I think you're getting a bit too worked up about things, Seppo. Go ahead and say that what I'm doing is incredibly unchallenging if that's what suits you, but hey, I'm having fun doing it.

And I'm planning to capture every card. I don't do the whole "planned deathtrance" thing. I agree, a run where I intentionally skip Tongling Yoshika, Iwafune, and Honor the Avoidance... that's pussy shit right there.

[Bang Jan]

Hi! I'm Bang Jan and I just died to Remilia's 3rd nonspell. :colonveeplusalpha:

[Sakurei]

zengeku, shame I had danish in school for 3 years and know (roguhly) what you wrote there. I chuckled. makes like, no sense from what I gather.

[Yatakarasu]

I died to Yuugi twice during Knockout.  :V I would like to add, that I did not lose a single life before that.

[Zengeku]

zengeku, shame I had danish in school for 3 years and know (roguhly) what you wrote there. I chuckled. makes like, no sense from what I gather.

Why would they teach you Danish? It made sense for us to be taught German but not the other way around. Oh well as for what I wrote, It's not gibberish but it's very random and quite perverted.

[Sakurei]

I lived in Flensburg. that's like...danish border, so it made sense that taught us. I ran away and moved to vienna, though :V

very random is what I mean with made no sense. I mean, where's the actual connection between the replay and that comment. that's what I mean.

[RNG]

Well, looking back at your list it seems like your criterion for "a good spell" is something that require a lot of execution to score well in. TD doesn't have many of those.

That's not what I value, though. For me, if there aren't that many random variables and I can find a way to macro through the attack, I tend to lose focus, and that's bad for me because being able to maintain focus and attain a flow state is the end-all be-all of STG playing. Not the accomplishments or the WRs, impressive as they may be. I'd have to say one of my proudest moments ever playing a shmup was my perfect of TD stage 5. I worked harder for my Ketsui clear, my UFO clear, and my Dragon Blaze high scores, but when I was playing that I was in a state of absolute concentration. I saw and reacted to gaps on Futo before my brain was aware they existed. It was beautiful, almost meditative. Maybe you've accomplished something like that, I dunno.

But for me, playing for score or milking runs at cross purposes to attaining a flow state. If there's no room for error (as is the case with p much all high level scoring), there's no way to react to the unforeseen and improvise. Maybe I'll never like scoring. But doing no-bomb runs or no-miss runs is more my thing, and I guarantee you I'll take those as far as I can.

--

It kind of depresses me how angry this discussion is getting. I'm just saying it's not good to denigrate peoples' accomplishments because they're playing an "easy game" and you just go ahead and trot out the whole "there are only 5 difficult attacks and you can skip all of them" and "bomb, bomb, trance, get WR" arguments which do no credit to me or you. Come on. We're all in this together, no need to squabble.

If you want my list of 10D spellcards that are good, though? I'll PM it.

[I have no name]

If you want my list of 10D spellcards that are good, though? I'll PM it.

I'm interested in seeing this list.

[K.B.]

It kind of depresses me how angry this discussion is getting. I'm just saying it's not good to denigrate peoples' accomplishments because they're playing an "easy game" and you just go ahead and trot out the whole "there are only 5 difficult attacks and you can skip all of them" and "bomb, bomb, trance, get WR" arguments which do no credit to me or you. Come on. We're all in this together, no need to squabble.

You don't get to pull this after insulting IN.  You either take the high ground from the beginning or apologize when you pull yourself out in the muck.  Acting like you had the high ground to begin with is deceptive and, considering how much time Seppo put into his reply, simply rude.

And nobody was getting angry, far as I can tell, unless you were.

[RNG]

"I'm warmly waiting for your list of neat TD cards you can have nice optimisation for! I'm sure you've figured out something else than X X C for the WR-region of that game, haven't you?"

I'm not sure I like the sarcasm there. Dude, we're talking about video games, no need to be so serious.

[Zengeku]

I mean, where's the actual connection between the replay and that comment. that's what I mean.

Well you are right. The connection doens't exist.

It kind of depresses me how angry this discussion is getting. I'm just saying it's not good to denigrate peoples' accomplishments because they're playing an "easy game" and you just go ahead and trot out the whole "there are only 5 difficult attacks and you can skip all of them" and "bomb, bomb, trance, get WR" arguments which do no credit to me or you.

Yeah well things like these are no good either:

If you want to complain about TD being easy and sleep-inducingly boring, please perfect the first 4 stages in a row  Really there's some sort of weird mental block people have to TD. They claim it's incredibly easy, but aren't willing to completely own the crap out of it because it's "too boring". Seems like an excuse to me. Maybe the game is actually kinda challenging()

[Sakurei]

I'm certain we can all agree the WR-replays in TD look absolutely retarded due to how the scoring system works. there is no optimisation in this game if you want to score. there is only bombspam.

conclusion: TD scoring is the worst, most retarded system any shmup has ever brought forth.

now, the issue at hand was that RNG is doing a NBNT run, which has nothing to do with scoring, really. a NBNT run in TD is like a no UFO run in UFO. score will forever be horrible.

the thing I addressed in the beginning (yes, I am the casue for this :V) was that I find the game sleep inducingly boring. But I also stated that it's pretty tough to NBNT because of the few lives you get. SO, in conclusion, everyone who manages to pull off a 1cc under those conditions definitely deserves the recognition!

next up is the comparison to IN. I think everyone will agree that Vee/Seppo's got that game down and that he absolutely deserves praise for what he's done in it. First of all is actually understanding how the scoring in that game works - because I don't. getting 2 (or was it 3 already?) World records in it on any difficulty is beast and crazy stuff. kudos to you for that, definitely. really can't press it enough. My one terrible scoring attempt at IN easy showed me how difficult it is.
the reason IN was brought up is because RNG believes it's worse (?) than TD in terms of spellcards. yeah....no. sorry, but that's something I, and many others, can't agree with. that's something subjective and everyone will has to bear with it. I like IN more, RNG apparently likes TD more. It's all fine if we leave it at that. there is no need to go into detailed comparison as to how IN is better in terms of gameplay and scoring etc.

we can say that what seppo did wasn't alright (referring to the sarcastic comment that had no connection to RNG NBNT runs). what RNG did wasn't alright either. insulting a game for whatever reason. Of course, the same applies to me and zengeku - it's alright to find the game boring, but I suppose shoving it into the faces of everyone who doesn't hate it was immature and I apologize.

on another note: I believe NB runs are more feasible for me currently, so I'll mix them in together with my random 90 fps shenanigans. I was thinking of doing MoF NB, IN NB and PCB NB (or intentional bordder break, for that matter). POSSIBLY EoSD NB. I might also try my hands at SA and UFO, but I doubt I'll get anywhere with those two.
if I feel like I can do it quickly, I might also throw a NBNT run in. who knows.

[Goldom]

Sometimes I'm glad I still am a mediocre player, because I love TD probably 3rd best overall, and find it plenty challenging. :V Having whole games become boringly easy isn't something I look forward to.

I do loathe TD's scoring system though. I mean, I don't even play for score and it still drives me nuts that my worst runs have the highest scores because of getting to sit on top of bosses during death and bombs.

[RNG]

Sometimes I'm glad I still am a mediocre player, because I love TD probably 3rd best overall, and find it plenty challenging. :V Having whole games become boringly easy isn't something I look forward to.

The cool thing about Touhou games in particular is that no matter what skill level you're at, there's always one particular goal that's just barely reachable. Eeven if the games start to seem easy, there's always something really fun and new to do.

[Yatakarasu]

Wow, I could not extra stage today. Sucked at every single one I tried.

[vctrz]

6 - 声符「木菟咆哮」 - Now this one is interesting. There might be ways to supergraze it varying on difficulties. It's interesting, and there lies some optimalness within it yet to be reached. I'm not sure if it ever will be fully reached, though, since humanly limits of hand-eye coordination start to get on the way here. But seeing the way you guys are going to, anything is possible in the future, I'd say.

Funny you should mention that since I've been trying this for the past few days. I think full optimality for this spell card would look a little something like this (without the shaky ending, of course): http://replays.gensokyou.org/download.php?id=25809
Drags on for a little bit longer than the standard graze-3-waves-and-bail, but consistency would be the biggest issue with this in a full run. No doubt, one of the most interesting spell cards in the game.

[Sakurei]

I don't think I can do a In no bomb run. I just tried and...

it's not that it's too difficult (fought eirin, hush). I actually cleared the game. the thing with it is that due to large sequence between "get hit" and "die" I deathbombed like 3 times on reflex :V my finger just pressed x on its own and eh, thus failed what I wanted to do.

[Goldom]

Could always use AutoHotkey to set x to some other letter.

Actually this is probably what I'd do always if I ever wanted to do no-bomb, yes-death runs (never have had that urge), so that I wouldn't take away from my bombing reflex, which already leaves a bit to be desired.

[Wriggle]

Could always use AutoHotkey to set x to some other letter.

Actually this is probably what I'd do always if I ever wanted to do no-bomb, yes-death runs (never have had that urge), so that I wouldn't take away from my bombing reflex, which already leaves a bit to be desired.

I do that whenever I'm doing no-vertical because sometimes it's unavoidable running to the POC. :V

[Nindella]

Let go of shift for unfocused movement  :ohdear:

[Tsym]

I tried playing UFO Extra with MarisaA to relax.

Captured all of Kogasa's spells. Easy. I even managed to completely read her second card, and I somehow managed to not stay under her long enough to get into the last 10 seconds of her final card. Still captured it.
Died once on the part after Kogasa because it's hard.

Alright fine. Get to Nue.
Die to first card. Die to Snake Show. Die to Danmaku Chimera. Game over on Green UFO.

Oh that was a glorious run.

[Reiko]

Mamizou's first four cards capture ratio :
Spell Practice : 80%
Actual runs : 10%

Well well well...

[Zengeku]

I have failed all of Kogasa's spells today. Someone just shoot me...  :blush:

[Lepetit89]

When a derpy Final B run with a character earns me a lower High Score than the previous derpy Final A run with the same character, I know that I derped splendidly. Good grief, I'd better get used to faster characters.