Zombie Apocalypse Mafia - GAME OVER

[capt. h]

In other news, I wonder if me saying that (and because of realizing it, NOT hammering myself), would have changed the lynch from me to Bard anyway.

You should be regretting passing your radio to Edible more. If the radio had been in the hands of a living player, then we wouldn't have had a reason to lynch you. You might also want to regret hammering yourself in LyLo, but your biggest mistake was the radio. Basically, when you get a verifiable night action, you should use it in a way that confirms yourself as town first, and to find scum second.

Incidentally, when I asked you to report who you were giving the radio to into the radio, your response was... too confusing for me to understand. It seemed pretty clear that you were giving it to me at the time, and it seemed like you rambled off a little at the end. That made it very difficult to figure out where the radio was going, and when it comes to clearing yourself, you should try to be crystal clear.

[Shadoweh]

You shouldn't have been relying on the radios to clear people. I thought they were all kinds of awesome as a mobile Masonry that couldn't be killed, but all you people wanted to do with them was play hot potato!

I told NeoSerela it was like he was claiming scum to me by insisting Hourai found out from one of us :V

Actually, I am proud of one thing. Somehow a MAJOR PRESSING CASE was built around.. this.

I wanna be the very townest!
Like no town ever was
To catch scum is my real test
To save newbs is my cause

I will re-read across the days
Hunting far and wide
Each wagon flip to understand
The motives that they hide

MAFIA! Gotta lynchem all!
It's you and me
I know it's my destiny!
MAFIA! Oooooooooooo~
You're my best friend
In a town we must defend

MAFIA! Gotta lynchem all!
A gut so true
My gambit will pull us through
You clear me and I'll clear you
Mafiaaaaaaaaaaa~ Gotta lynchem all!
Gotta lynchem all, MAFIA!

And my last radio message that was cut off by the scum team trolling me.. :<

Signing off from Mafia, Mafia, MAFIA RADIOOOO~

That UK, that kitty cat
You post content she purrs
She thinks this thread is hers
But you won't like her when she's angry
No, you won't like her when she's angry
Angry angry

She's townie
Not frownie when she's in a happy mood
She loves her obvscum food
But she's got such an attitude
Completely scummy attitude
scum-my attitude

Kitten is angry, UK is offended
Fur standing out and little claws extended
Darting around and hunting quite a bit
And throwing up a wall of text
I don't know what to make of it

Kitten is angry, full of discontentment
Wildly attacking posts that just don't make sense
Waffling around in a psychotic blitz
And posting all these walls of text
But I still love UncertainKitten to bits!

Bard should post his crazy zombie limmericks. His trolling the Graveyard song was perfect.
Edit: Town Damsel in Distress! You win when you are saved. <3 I died.

[Conqueror]

You should be regretting passing your radio to Edible more. If the radio had been in the hands of a living player, then we wouldn't have had a reason to lynch you. You might also want to regret hammering yourself in LyLo, but your biggest mistake was the radio. Basically, when you get a verifiable night action, you should use it in a way that confirms yourself as town first, and to find scum second.

Well it's not like he knew Edible was going to be NK'd, given he thought Edible was scum (I think). That said, he totally didn't have to self-hammer in LYLO when he knew he was town, but eh, we've all already gotten on his case for that. :V

[Bardiche]

To sum it up:

* - Self Hammering is not town
* - Gaming the setup rather than scumhunting is Not Smart
* - Do not rely on role shenanigans to carry your game for you
* - If it sounds Too Good To Be True, it probably is
* - Mafia is a team effort. Don't try to solo the game unless you're an ITP.

[capt. h]

To sum it up:

* - Self Hammering is not town
* - Gaming the setup rather than scumhunting is Not Smart
* - Do not rely on role shenanigans to carry your game for you
* - If it sounds Too Good To Be True, it probably is
* - Mafia is a team effort. Don't try to solo the game unless you're an ITP.

Ironically, only half of those applied to this game. If we gamed the setup with your lynch, we probably would have caught Huh What the next day. Edible role shenanigans day two could have carried the game for us. His role did sound too good to be true, but was true anyways. And by nature, Edible's biologist ability seems to destroy town teamwork.

I'm not saying that as a good thing, because I agree with everything you said completely. Except for the ITP comment, which I don't know what it means.

What does "ITP" mean?

[Conqueror]

Independent Third Party

[Pesco]

To sum it up:

* - Self Hammering is not town
* - Gaming the setup rather than scumhunting is Not Smart
* - Do not rely on role shenanigans to carry your game for you
* - If it sounds Too Good To Be True, it probably is
* - Mafia is a team effort. Don't try to solo the game unless you're an ITP.
* - Pesco is always right

Fixed :V

[Bardiche]

Well, capt h, if you consider victory more important than the enjoyment of the game for a majority, then indeed, gaming the setup is a good plan.

It's taking advantage of a design flaw in lieu of playing Mafia, though, and so it is not a modus operandi that should logically be followed, as you signed up to play a different type of game. This is also the weakness in these bastard role mod flavour shenanigans.

[Shadoweh]

The problem with trying to game the setup, and a huge factor in why Bardiche won, is you have no way of 100% knowing what the scum team is capable of. Trying to game the setup without taking people's actions into account just doesn't work. Role shenanigans can be a suplement to scumhunting, but never a substitute.

Maybe if we play mafia knowing Bard as scum always gets two night actions. True facts.

Even after Serp's explanation of why the Biologist wasn't overpowered, I agree it wasn't a suitable role especially for this setup. Considering there were three town controlled kill powers, two of which could just clear a person instead.. Just imagine if Conqueror and UK hadn't died Day 1 and the list was Conqueror, Shadoweh, huh what, Bardiche, Schezo.

[Kilgamayan]

'Nilla Townie is still the most powerful role in the game.

Too bad it didn't save me.

[Edible]

'Nilla Wafer is still the most powerful cookie in the game.

Is true.

[Bardiche]

The irony, Shadoweh, is that I kept pointing out to capt h that "we" don't know scum's powers and that they could be pretty powerful.

:V See, Bard olevs his irony. Watch me get lynched next game when I do things like this.

[capt. h]

Well, capt h, if you consider victory more important than the enjoyment of the game for a majority, then indeed, gaming the setup is a good plan.

It's taking advantage of a design flaw in lieu of playing Mafia, though, and so it is not a modus operandi that should logically be followed, as you signed up to play a different type of game. This is also the weakness in these bastard role mod flavour shenanigans.

I don't play much mafia. In fact this is my first game.

I agree that I probably went too far with the setup and radios. In fact, clearing myself was far more important to me at the time than whether or not my method was right; I thought Edible was wrong, that at most only one of his trio could be scum, and I wanted to clear that up before Edible lost us the game. With Edible's role, Dormio's role, and the radios, I kind of figured that the setup was part of playing the game - it even looked like a central part of it. I apologize.

Incidentally, it takes a lot of guts claiming a role I asked Zak about, knowing full well that he would be in the right if he counterclaimed. I'm impressed.

The irony, Shadoweh, is that I kept pointing out to capt h that "we" don't know scum's powers and that they could be pretty powerful.

:V See, Bard olevs his irony. Watch me get lynched next game when I do things like this.

Next game, you won't have a double nightkill, a role blocker, and a silent third party all confirming your third party and dormant status. Unfortunately, even if I didn't analyze the setup at all, you simply could have never reasonably been considered scum, and any attempt to lynch you as scum would have been impossible for me. The only way you could have been lynched was under the assumption that you were a third party.

[Shadoweh]

He claimed Miller after being copped. On other forums that alone would have been lynchworthy. Bard won because he's got the touch. When all hell broke loose he was right in the eye of the storm. :3

Bard: From the graveyard, before capt.h said almost the same thing - "Bard's scum meta seems to be Refuge in Audacity. He outright told us "If UK gets nightkilled IT WAS ME" " Someday the scum team will murder one of their own, and you as town will be instalynched for it. Gambit Karma Backlash!

[Bardiche]

I never claimed Miller. Recall, I said Serp never clarified if I did or did not trigger the test. Everyone else filled in the blanks depending on what was most convenient at the time.

Same as the Vig claim. I just said I'd killed UK, everyone else jumped to conclude I was a third-party vigilante. All I had to do was confirm everyone's theories.


And yeah, someday that'll happen. If you read the scum topic, I've proposed multiple times to NK Huh What.

[Kitten4u]

The problem with trying to game the setup, and a huge factor in why Bardiche won, is you have no way of 100% knowing what the scum team is capable of. Trying to game the setup without taking people's actions into account just doesn't work. Role shenanigans can be a suplement to scumhunting, but never a substitute.

This.
I was always really confused on how anyone could think that Serela was scum.  Nothing about roles, meta OR the actual game pointed to him being scum except for maybe the failed radio pass (and I still think that's pushing it).

Anyway, good game.  That was an amazing fake claim Bard.  I'm totally okay with losing to it. <3

[Serp]

The problem with trying to game the setup, and a huge factor in why Bardiche won, is you have no way of 100% knowing what the scum team is capable of. Trying to game the setup without taking people's actions into account just doesn't work. Role shenanigans can be a suplement to scumhunting, but never a substitute.

Marry me. :V  (And I'm not just sucking up to you because you're about to be a neighbor with a military twice my size in diplomacy. :ohdear:)

Even after Serp's explanation of why the Biologist wasn't overpowered, I agree it wasn't a suitable role especially for this setup. Considering there were three town controlled kill powers, two of which could just clear a person instead.. Just imagine if Conqueror and UK hadn't died Day 1 and the list was Conqueror, Shadoweh, huh what, Bardiche, Schezo.

Well, even though the role was mathematically balanced, I can see why it'd be considered unfun.  A Cop can subtly breadcrumb his results, but the Biologist couldn't really have that luxury, especially in such a short game, and so the optimal play was to come out with the results and basically take over the game with them, or else risking having all his results lost with his death.  The biggest theme of this game ought to be "scumhunting is irreplaceable," but the close second is "it's not fun when the game is just in the hands of a few players."  It's definitely a principle I'll be keeping in mind for any roles I design in the future.

As far as scum's roles being literally unpredictable for town, I realize that I kind of wrote myself into a corner by giving the town its own pretty powerful lineup of roles.  If I then kept scum roles at the conventional level, then the game would be unbalanced and scum would be screwed.  But by instead going by the mathematically balanced roles in this game, it put the town in a situation where they thought their roles were more powerful than they were.  As Kilga said in the Dead QT, players here generally have a low opinion of how well their mods can balance roles, so when they see a role-heavy game by an unproven mod, they assume they can win it from setup speculation.  And because townies absolutely should be trying to win every game they play by whatever means are at their disposal, they can't really even be blamed for trying to crack what they have every reason to believe is a setup that can be solved with perfect certainty.  To do any less would be playing against their faction, unless they have good reason to believe that the mod hasn't been so foolish.

So, it's a problem that can only be solved by consistent hosting of balanced games that can't be locked down by role shenanigans, to the point that players always assume that scum could have some way out, and their Cop result or shoehorned inconvenience-for-scum-into-perfect-nk-identifier can only be taken as a nudge towards or away from whoever's behavior has been more scum-motivated.  Open setups are a nice step towards that, although they won't help polish the good ol' BS roleclaim detector.

[UncertainJakutten]

Actually your case was bad and you should feel bad, Bard. But since I vowed NOT to rage at things I find dumb, I ignored it. Why don't you try hard ?

That said it wasn't scummy or I'd probably have shot you, so you did well there.

FWIW town should lynch Third-Party on LYLO if only because it'd give them a night of investigation and cull the numbers to make a better, informed decision.

This about the entirity of my rage in the latter half of the dead QT. You were a liability to town, even as third party. You should have been lynched, even if you *had* actually be third party :V

Anyway, yeah, it'd be nice to not die N1 whenever I decide to play mafia, yanno. I mean, yay for being a threat...I guess?

[UncertainJakutten]

* The Least Ammy Kitten In The World starts reading scum QT

Yeah, totally can't have changed in 8 months, HW! People *never* change.

Schezo: When was werewolf mafia? Because I'm pretty sure the comment above applies with a more suitable time frame, probably reaching into years.

HW: Well, at least you recognize I'm good at looking town.

Schezo: I still don't get the slip up thing. I mean, sort've, but it's more everyone who's townie should be posting as transparently as possible to show intent.

HW: I totally attributed the quotes from you to Bard, that Serp fed me :V. Also, D1 is where scum get caught. Just not on D1.

Schezo: You're terrible at gender, aren't you?

Bard: Not really. Particularly if they are terrible cases. That said, had others taken it up, I would indeed have been forced to respond, likely with disdain :V. Also, I totally can't change in 8 months. You all were really not very nice. I mean, seriously, why is it ok for you all to be more or less jerks, but I get banned from mafia forever when I say anything remotely like what you all were spewing in that QT.

Bard: But, I was acting pretty town, since obviously I wasn't getting voted. That said, again, 8 months. Way to fail guy. Also, what inquiries besides your terrible ones ? I like the telegraphing the third party claim on D1.

Bard: Maybe I was trying for a lack of aggression in general? Nah, that's not possible, people don't change in 8 months ever.

OK, you aren't talking about me anymore so obviously I don't care. Though I may talk theory about the rest

Oh, wait. Bard, seriously, for "not resenting me", you were about 5000 times worse than I even came close to this game.

Bard: I tend to mod vote forever anyway, whatchoo talkin' bout? And for not hating me, you sure put up a damn good show. I'm not sure I like you, honestly. You're far more petty than I ever thought you were. It's really enlightening. To be honest, I'm not entirely sure I want to play with *you* until you get over this.

tl;dr by post 400, sorry.

[Schezo]

Yeah I realized a lot of my comments after I said them but I would help if we could have which posts you are talking about. :V Sorry if I offended you for being a jerk.

[Serela]

This reminds me of something.

How did Hourai know what was going on in the radio conversations, again? 

Also since I'm too lazy to do all the crap to get my mentally handicapped laptop working AGAIN after I've moved, I remade my game's setup from scratch, which is good because I specifically rewrote it to make sure it cannot possibly turn into anything like this game or my previous one. Because setup-playing mafia games are unfun for everyone. Hence why even Serp said in the Graveyard that he almost had to thank me for cutting D5 short.

Also I need to read that scum QT! *Gets to work doing so*

[Pesco]

Hourai could see the scum QT but not post in it I believe.

[Shadoweh]

Posting all these walls of text, even if I still love UncertainKitten to bits!

You said yourself that not reacting and ignoring Bard's case wasn't a town play for you, even if his original case was terribad. I don't think anyone meant to offend you for real, in fact everyone's gone out of their way to apologize to you the same as I apologized to the people I was horrible to. I like non-aggressive kitty, let's not fight and have tea instead. :<

[Bardiche]

UK: Protip: scum make bad cases. :V

Were I town I cannot imagine I would've pushed it.

Wall of resentment ninjas me. Oh well. :V

[Serela]

Wouldn't it be hi-larious to kill both of the radio talkers tonight and have NeoSerela go QQ? :B

so mean ;_;

So I was reading Serp saying something in the scum quicktopic that was around the end of N1, about how he hates me and I claim like an idiot.

Then I realized he was just repeating Shadoweh's radio message and I went "...oh yeah, I remember that now :V"

[UncertainJakutten]

But you said earlier you thought the case was good :V. If we're on the same page about the case, then cool.

And I feel you could have easily avoided that resentment. I tried for a fresh start. I feel like that's been pretty much shit upon. Why do I even try?

[GMOFucker: Makin' GMOs To Fuck 'Em]

And yeah, someday that'll happen. If you read the scum topic, I've proposed multiple times to NK Huh What.

I was the one who proposed that originally!

[Bardiche]

But you said earlier you thought the case was good :V. If we're on the same page about the case, then cool.

I am terrible at BSing cases, of course I need to convince myself.

And I feel you could have easily avoided that resentment. I tried for a fresh start. I feel like that's been pretty much shit upon. Why do I even try?

What resentment? I was annoyed you went "NOT WORTH MY TIME" and everyone else went "... k", and I do admit I was partly motivated by wanting to avoid a bitchfest later on (and I don't care how long it's been), but taking you out N1 proved to be valuable and was already agreed on by the other two scum as well.

Like I said, there is no resentment from my side. I assert that we simply do not get along in Mafia games, but if you wish to extend this to outside the game, then that is fine by me and I will adjust behaviour accordingly.

[Pesco]

I resent that you chose to NK Colt over Edible :V

[capt. h]

I should probably apologize

This.
I was always really confused on how anyone could think that Serela was scum.  Nothing about roles, meta OR the actual game pointed to him being scum except for maybe the failed radio pass (and I still think that's pushing it).

Anyway, good game.  That was an amazing fake claim Bard.  I'm totally okay with losing to it. <3

Honestly, I started thinking that Serela was putting on a facade to get out of posting content after a while. Remember I had to pick between either Neo and Huh What team or Edible. Biologist turns town against town very, very fast, and people outside the list aren't really available for discussion. By that I mean I can't afford to talk about them because there's a guy that's either scum or has proof that the two guys next to me are scum; if the biologist flips town, he's convinced the whole town that two out of me and my two buddies must be scum.

Basically, Neo was my only option when Edible got NK.

And I'd like to point out that I shouldn't be the only player that was skeptical of Bard's fake claim. It was the single most absurd role I've ever heard of in a mafia game. Mostly pointing this out because I don't want to have to back down the next time someone makes that kind of 3rd party claim; especially if the player is a serial killer.