Labyrinth of Touhou 9F

[Ghaleon]

So uhh, I just got to 17f on my current playthru. And while the floor has always been pretty tough, it never was "MUST RUN AWAY" tough for me...however this playthru, the floor is stomping me so hard. Them golden knights, I just can't kill them or paralyze them (consistently) before they move, and they CONTINUALLY double slash my back rows or 2-team steel slasher my front (which nobody in my party can survive, tanks included). blah... I remember last playthru nothing caused me grief but those stupid gems with like 500quadrillion mnd and 0 def..They were nasty because I lacked physical aoe attackers.

That said I have youmu in this playthru, and while she's not really impressing me more than I expected, I never really noticed just how good her nature aoe is at piercing defense, came in handy for those helbelmares. Yukari was particularly easy for me this playthru, go figure... I wonder if cootiesuke will magically be crazy hard for me for a change.

[Ghaleon]

double poast cuz.
Cootiesuke beat at reimu 87 yay. Lost kaggy and reimu, though for some reason I forgot I had mino to heal halfway thru lol. I was even thinking "oh carp oh carp I need heals" and never used her after heerrp.

Despite my defensive build, due to my low levels, my defenses weren't really any better than my last all-offense group =P... Plus everyone's hp was quite a bit less. I think I'll upload it eventually, I gotta re-find my damn video editing software though qq.

edit: I uploaded a vid of it just cuz people seem to like this boss.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ndQFYkpnOUY

[Eilaris]

Mmm, since it's quite clear that the prevailing wisdom these days is to build most characters defensively with levelup stats, I'm curious.

Is there some kind of cutoff point that one should look for in a character's stats or growths beyond which a conclusion can be made that their defenses aren't worth boosting and one should focus on their offenses instead?  How much of it depends on the composition of the rest of your party, in NG+ situations?

[Serela]

It depends on what you want to use the characters for, really.

You could take someone who's normally used as a glass cannon, and if they have a decently low delay nuke, you could try doing a defensive build on them to have a tanky nuker. That's not really done, so I don't know how well it'd work out.

The thing is, most characters used offensively would kind of suck if you didn't do an offense build on them. And a lot of characters used offensively are better to just switch in, nuke, switch out, so their defenses really don't matter.

And then there's already characters who are tanky nukers -with- offenses boosted only (Like Alice, who is very durable late maingame/plus disk)

Really, when it comes to characters you're actually using TO ATTACK, offense builds are pretty much universal. But there's some merit in a mixed build on an attacker. Patchouli can become seriously ridiculous vs. magic, and a surprising amount of bosses have little to no physical attacks.

[MewMewHeart]

My thoughts/story on fighting Eientei for the third time:

Funny... thing to mention... last year and I wanted to keep quiet about this but, I somehow bypassed Kaguya's nuke phase on my 3rd playthrough of LoT due to Suwako getting a PAR off on Kaguya, after I killed Eirin during the Eientei fight, which saved me when I killed Eirin with a strategy I call "HELP ME Eirin" which involves poisoning/paring Reisen then poisoning Erin. Then proceeded to pepper Eirin, Kaguya, and Reisen with nukes but, here's the thing don't use poison on Kaguya just keep hitting her with single targeting or nukes spells until you feel she's gonna go down along with Eirin THEN poison her but, keep Reisen locked with Suwako's PAR or anyone who can Par and reapply the poison too if it wears off as long as you can although a few hits on them helps too but, don't kill Reisen during the commotion.  Also, love the fact that Tenshi and Meiling were tanking while it gave me time to pull out Ran to buff anyone or have Sanae to come in and buff/heal along with Reimu, while sometimes Aya or Sakuya used their speed buffs. Yuugi, Patchouli, and Nitori go to town on Kaguya.

I had Komachi in reserve to just let her soak in the buffs my Ran was throwing out until Kaguya was gone, which was during my first and second playthroughs  I usually knockout Kaguya but, on my third playthrough... I was shocked I took out Eirin with my idea. Then I used my buffed up Yuugi to Knockout Kaguya who used focus which was during I think by the time Erin healed Reisen for the who knows how many time, but, it didn't help so I used Suwako's Iron Rings to stop Kaguya which managed to land PAR status on her by some miracle,  then switched her with Yuugi to use Irremoveable Shackles, but it wasn't enough even though Eirin died after healing who had Kaguya took damage from my nukes and poisons so, fearing for the worse I tried to prepare myself but, then a miracle happened she used Swallow's Cowrie Shell instead of Hourai Barrage.

My comment was "HOLY CRAP it's a miracle!" which gave me a chance to switch in Patchouli who already was buffed and finished her off with Silent Selene, from then on I just had to deal with near death experiences from Reisen's attacks and her Mind Stormie which made my Komachi so, happy that I  just killed Reisen with Scythe that Chooses Death.

TLDR version: "Sometimes, it's good to balance out your party with the essential stuff if you want to kill annoyances. Namely the Eientei crew although I love them to death... THEY ARE ANNOYING TO FIGHT."  :V

I just felt like telling my story, of managing to do something achievable although maybe some people already did it too.  :ohdear:

[RegalStar]

Having some defense may be helpful to characters who have low delay attacks. For characters who are running around using very high delay attacks, raising their defense is pointless. I mean, look at Nitori - her defenses are not that bad, and she has camouflage to self-buff defense, but nobody would even think about raising her defenses with level-up points because railgun is the only attack she will use in boss fights ever, and with 0 post-use gauge there's no point in keeping her in after a shot.

[MewMewHeart]

Having some defense may be helpful to characters who have low delay attacks. For characters who are running around using very high delay attacks, raising their defense is pointless. I mean, look at Nitori - her defenses are not that bad, and she has camouflage to self-buff defense, but nobody would even think about raising her defenses with level-up points because railgun is the only attack she will use in boss fights ever, and with 0 post-use gauge there's no point in keeping her in after a shot.

That's why I usually have my tanks switch out my nukes who have no atb after using a very their most powerful attacks or by some luck I have Kaguya in to use Buddha's Stone Bowl to let the nuker go again while one tank in solt one (usually Meiling or Komachi) switch out Kaguya, then I usually have Rinnosuke or Tenshi, switch out the nuke for someone else in the 4th solt to buff up.

Right now though... I need to grind up to do the second round Bloodstain bosses I'm only able to take out Light Wings and probably Habachi although I probably need to do some more thinking on my options.

[Starxsword]

Mmm, since it's quite clear that the prevailing wisdom these days is to build most characters defensively with levelup stats, I'm curious.

I would say it kind of depends on the character. If your character has a good damage formula and decent growths, then favoring an offensive build on her is good. If your character is composite, favoring an offensive build is almost always bad, because you are really only getting half of your level up bonuses.

[RegalStar]

I would say it kind of depends on the character. If your character has a good damage formula and decent growths, then favoring an offensive build on her is good. If your character is composite, favoring an offensive build is almost always bad, because you are really only getting half of your level up bonuses.

IIRC Reimu is the ONLY character in the game whose offensive spells are all composite. Every other character with composite offensive spells also have single spectrum attacks, so they tend to focus on what their single spectrum attacks need, and some of them can actually end up doing great damage with their composite attacks. Orin's Blazing Wheel, Flan's Laevatein, and Ran's Soaring En No Ozuno (if you build her for attacking over support) are all great damage dealers, and of course they will use their single spectrum attacks quite often as well (well maybe not Orin so much), so they do still get great returns from offensive builds. Even for Reimu, the problem is not so much that she doesn't get good returns due to attacks being composite as that her attacks just fall flat on too many things, and her support options are just so good that you want to use her for support instead of attack.

[Serela]

If your character is composite, favoring an offensive build is almost always bad, because you are really only getting half of your level up bonuses.

Uh, no...?

Like, good composite nukes still need all that investment. The damage still takes a big hit without the levelup bonuses.

Then again, the good composite nukers, Ran and Orin, can also realistically be tanky... Ran is actually kind of tanky in pure offense already.

Also, Orin does get some use out of Needle Hell. Random enemies with high MND or FIR resist!

[Ghaleon]

I always thought of myself preferring defense builds on characters who have at least one fairly decent defensive stat to upgrade, but the "uses attacks that empty most of the action bar" theory is actually surprisingly accurate for me. There are obvious exceptions (raymoo), but yeah...that pretty much sums it up.

I tried using yuugi as a defense character once...but it just was not reliable. Her weakness to mnd attacks seemed to be more debilitating to her than patchy's weakness to defense-related attacks. Probably because there are few true aoe physical attacks, and the row based ones don't really threaten her unusually lots if she's in the back. Meanwhile, yuugi takes absolutely catastrophic hits from simple "wind of ____" spells! Which tons of bosses have (or worse). I think bad luck had something to do with it though, it's like every time I counted on yuugi to tank a few hits, that boss with 4 physical attacks and 1 magical attacks always chose the wrong damn one =P.

[Serela]

Yuugi has Meiling-tier defense with no DEF levelups, if you can fix her mnd by severely pumping her affinities you can do an offense build and she'll be a first slot tank that wrecks face.

But that's for like... end of postgame.

[Ghaleon]

I hope touhou laby2 has much more cast not just for the obvious reasons of more = better or whatnot. But one thing i find laby lacks is a choice of which character to use for specific tasks. For example renko and reisen are really the only two debuff everything characters.  Cirno and renko are the only two potent speed debuffers (i think, iirc suika's spd debuff wasnt particularly potent? Could be wrong). Kanako is the only viable cld nuker. Raymoo is the only viable aoe healsr for 90% of the game, etc.

I find myself wanting renko's debuffing ability without neccesarily it being aoe, without her gamebreaking par (if boss is t immune i just dont use it cuz if it lands the boss is pretty much iwin button'd, which isnt fun). Perhaps a potent debuffer who only does 1 or 2 stats at a time, but in return has some combat potential, or a better buff than charge (so good on paper but the self-damage effect is just too risky imo).

Or it would be nice to have a good tank without some super huge weakness other than china. I mean other people can tank too but minimal level running is practically balanced on if you have china. There should be other tanks of her calibre too imo. Because i dont think shes actually op, if she was people wouldnt qq that this game was a geindfest when they use her. I disagree that the game is but I mean china is t exactly such a big crutch that she makes the game simple without overleveling.

I know this game is WAY better in this catagory than the vast majority already, but i just think its still one of the obvious directions that it can continue to improve further in.

[Pesco]

Fix evasion too. Make everyone rage when their damage race nuke misses :V

[Ghaleon]

Evasion being "fixed" would eliminate the whole "miss" display. To make evasion work in an rpg you softwn its results so instead of just hit or miss you make everything hit multiple times, with some potentially missing (and all extremely unlikely unless gimmick fight or something). Or you have a range of hits like nick, glance, hit, crit, mortal crit, etc.

That said i really want that too. Evasion/hit actually adds depth and NOT dumb amounts of luck when done properly.
I cant imaging evasion working well without a seperate hit stat too though.

[qazmlpok]

Presumably, Laby2 is going to take after Arcanum Knights, which uses a "miss / nick / hit / critical" system. A better hit stat will therefore not just hit more often, but do more damage as you get better damage modifiers.

Having only played like 10 minutes of Arcanum Knights, however, I can't say much on how it actually works.

[Starxsword]

Uh, no...?

Like, good composite nukes still need all that investment. The damage still takes a big hit without the levelup bonuses.

Then again, the good composite nukers, Ran and Orin, can also realistically be tanky... Ran is actually kind of tanky in pure offense already.

Also, Orin does get some use out of Needle Hell. Random enemies with high MND or FIR resist!

I say that because it is not worth it. Each level up spent gives you half the return, because the attack not only takes MAG, but also the ATK stat. Let's pretend 500 levels. You put 500 levels in MAG, this means you get a boost of +1000% bonus to your base MAG. Which is really nice and all, but you composite attack only takes HALF of that bonus, as you aren't getting any level up boosts on ATK stat.

For example, compare it to someone with just ATK. You level 500 level ups in ATK, that's +1000% bonus to base ATK. You get the FULL bonus of the levels ups you spent, as your skill only uses ATK as its damage.

This is also why even Flandre's Laevateinn isn't as impressive as it could be, because it uses MAG and ATK, instead of just pure ATK. Your level 500 Flandre missed out on 500 level ups of MAG. That is of course assuming you are putting all your points in ATK, which I don't see why you wouldn't for Flandre.

[Ghaleon]

Pretty sure that was already understood. What you're missing though is all the good composite attacks  still have multipliers compareable to non composite attacks for BOTH atk and mag.

Its hard to explain so ill just type some easy numbers, im texting on a phone though, might have a typo or two.
Character 1 has 100 atk and who cares mag, they have a nuke which does 400% atk - 100% enemy def (lets pretend 300). Nuke does 100 damage

Character 2 has 100 atk and 50 mag (most composite attackers have uneven stats even if the formula is even)
Their attack formula is 400% atk + 400% mag - (100% edef + 100emnd). Enemy has 200mnd incidently.
Char 2 nuke = 400 + 200 - (300 + 200) = 100 damage

Now both characters magically get 50 level up bonuses without the level ups! They both spend it all on attack. Putting it at 200
Char 1 nuke = 200*400% - 300 = 500 damage. Holy zounds it quintupled

Char 2 nuke = (200*400%) + (50*400%) - (300+200) = 800 + 200 - 500 = 500 damage!

So... Despite the fact character 2 is only improving half of their formula, the actual benefit is still the same.

The areas that affect how much level up bonuses improve damage are simply the character's stats, and how much their formula uses that stat.

[Validon98]

So, after a bunch of grinding up (Reimu's at 129), I decided that instead of going after Maribel, I'd go after the first Bloodstained Seal boss with the really long name I don't remember. I just barely beat it before it got off another Final Danmaku which would have surely killed Tenshi and Nitori. Talk about close. ^^;
That fight's gotten me up to Reimu 130. Is that generally enough for the fight against Maribel, or should I take on the second Bloodstained Seal fight first?

[Ghaleon]

So, after a bunch of grinding up (Reimu's at 129), I decided that instead of going after Maribel, I'd go after the first Bloodstained Seal boss with the really long name I don't remember. I just barely beat it before it got off another Final Danmaku which would have surely killed Tenshi and Nitori. Talk about close. ^^;
That fight's gotten me up to Reimu 130. Is that generally enough for the fight against Maribel, or should I take on the second Bloodstained Seal fight first?

I think Reimu 129 is fine, but it's been awhile so not sure. I'm currently at 19f on my current playthru so if you're done for today and tomorrow maybe I'll catch up and see?
Anyway I have a similar question. What exactly is the levelranged suggested for winner since the one on the wiki is apparently way high. And by suggested I mean "minimum"ish, not a "first timers should be comfy at ____" range.

[RegalStar]

So, after a bunch of grinding up (Reimu's at 129), I decided that instead of going after Maribel, I'd go after the first Bloodstained Seal boss with the really long name I don't remember. I just barely beat it before it got off another Final Danmaku which would have surely killed Tenshi and Nitori. Talk about close. ^^;
That fight's gotten me up to Reimu 130. Is that generally enough for the fight against Maribel, or should I take on the second Bloodstained Seal fight first?

The Roflcopter? That thing's ver1 is the easiest one of the bloodsealed seal boss as long as you have some way of doing 200k damage quickly.

[I have no name]

The Roflcopter? That thing's ver1 is the easiest one of the bloodsealed seal boss as long as you have some way of doing 200k damage quickly.

Master Light Wings EVD is on the first floor, Beast of Centaurea is on the 6th floor and is the one you're thinking of.

[RegalStar]

I hope touhou laby2 has much more cast not just for the obvious reasons of more = better or whatnot. But one thing i find laby lacks is a choice of which character to use for specific tasks. For example renko and reisen are really the only two debuff everything characters.  Cirno and renko are the only two potent speed debuffers (i think, iirc suika's spd debuff wasnt particularly potent? Could be wrong). Kanako is the only viable cld nuker. Raymoo is the only viable aoe healsr for 90% of the game, etc.

I find myself wanting renko's debuffing ability without neccesarily it being aoe, without her gamebreaking par (if boss is t immune i just dont use it cuz if it lands the boss is pretty much iwin button'd, which isnt fun). Perhaps a potent debuffer who only does 1 or 2 stats at a time, but in return has some combat potential, or a better buff than charge (so good on paper but the self-damage effect is just too risky imo).

Or it would be nice to have a good tank without some super huge weakness other than china. I mean other people can tank too but minimal level running is practically balanced on if you have china. There should be other tanks of her calibre too imo. Because i dont think shes actually op, if she was people wouldnt qq that this game was a geindfest when they use her. I disagree that the game is but I mean china is t exactly such a big crutch that she makes the game simple without overleveling.

I know this game is WAY better in this catagory than the vast majority already, but i just think its still one of the obvious directions that it can continue to improve further in.

Suika's speed debuff is actually quite potent - 40% to all. Komachi can also do a decent job at speed debuffing.

The thing with tanks is that it's just difficult to design multiple "good tank" characters while giving them some sort of interesting distinction, all while keeping things balanced. The only way to make multiple choices for tanks while keeping things interesting is to give them all flaws so none of them are so perfect like Meiling is.

[Validon98]

Master Light Wings EVD is on the first floor, Beast of Centaurea is on the 6th floor and is the one you're thinking of.

Yeah, the first one isn't that bad, but Final Danmaku is a bitch, so its a damage race that is easy to screw up (I got lucky, to a degree). I read about the second one on the wiki and practically laughed because it seemed much more of an easy fight. I know I can beat it now, and I probably should before taking on Maribel.

[Fishin]

Laby2 blog post, main thing is that there's going to be an updated trial version at Reitaisai on 5/26 that goes up to 3F.

other notes:
-instead of having 3-4 different sets of stat-boosting skills for different characters, all characters will probably have all of the stat-boosting skills.  The wording on what comes afterwards is kind of odd, at first I thought he was saying that he set it up like that because people will probably only invest in stat boosts a certain way anyways, but the picture shows a Marisa with several stat boost skills (including MND) marked unobtainable so idk.
-consumable items that boost skill points for a character are planned, though they'll be quite rare
-after beating a boss, you'll always get some sort of growth item
-if you beat a boss at a low level, you get additional MP/TP/Skill Point boosting items
-you can now lower your levels at the Hakurei Shrine

[Ghaleon]

Zomgomgomgogogo! Squeeeeee!
That is all spectacugrand!

edit:
Just remembered.. someone else once suggested something that they wanted it to have that I thought was actually better than what I myself brainstormed: Map editor.. plzplzplz

[Starxsword]

Pretty sure that was already understood. What you're missing though is all the good composite attacks  still have multipliers compareable to non composite attacks for BOTH atk and mag.

I don't think composite attacks have damage formulas as good as non-composite ones, at least if we only talk about just 1 part of it. The best composite attack, Laevateinn, has a formula of 4.5x ATK and 4.5x MAG. The others have formulas of 4x ATK and 4x MAG, which is amazing, if you count both stats, ATK and MAG. Since that adds up to 9x and 8x overall.

Comparatively speaking, the non-composite formulas start at 5x(Patchouli's and several others) and generally go up from there. Youmu's being 7.5x. Suwako's being close to 8x. Of course, Nitori's insane 10x and Yuyuko's really high 9x.

So when you have say 500 level ups(I think you get 2% per level up you put, it could be 3%, I don't remember) in ATK, you have something like 7.5 x 11 x base stat for damage.
Compared to (4.5 x 11 x base stat) + (4.5 x base stat) for damage in case of composite attacks.
Of course it doesn't work exactly this way, since there are level ups and skill points, but this is just over generalizing it.

[Ghaleon]

I did not say to compare good composite attacks to SUPER BEST GLASS CANNON attacks. So that last point is pretty moot.
"good" composite attacks you were quoting were ran's (which has a low delay, so comparing it to ones you list which practically empty the action bar completely is pretty unfair), and orin's (not low delay, but not bad either, couple that with her relatively high speed though and it's pretty fast).

Ran is like the 5th ish tanky character in the game, with some of hte best support in the game, soo.. expecting her composite nuke to compare to that of a glass cannon is pretty silly. Orin (whom I btw never really thought of as a great character, just putting it out there), is by no means squishy, but not tanky either, has decent defensive stats, and good speed...

I didn't argue that composite attacks are good, In fact, I probably think they suck more than you. However if you ARE using them for whatever reason, investing in your composite attacker's attack stat is NOT going to reward you less than a non-composite attacker, THAT is what my point was.

[Validon98]

So, after three tries, I finally beat the Beast of Centaurea. Three tries. Three tries. The first two were ended pretty much as soon as "Hahaha! What's wrong?" showed up. >.>
And then I tried taking on Maribel. Things started well, I got to the point where all three of the minions were summoned with minimal casualties... and then my laptop crashed.  :colonveeplusalpha:

[RegalStar]

Maribel's minion phase is a cinch compared to her OUP berserked phase. Don't let your guard down.