[WC3 - Dots] General discussion thread II

[Dular]

My thoughts on Sunny Milk after playing her for a few games:

Sunny Milk is a melee Wriggle that is visible for longer.  Her skills do little, and she requires element of surprise heavily, and only late game does she start to become a brawler type that oddly enough, is not a very good brawler compared to the likes other brawlers.  Her saving grace and causes rage is her invisible.  Seriously, get a Tengu and she can't do much to her by herself.

Rage worthy, but people don't want to use countermeasures so they lose.

[Stuffman]

It's because the cost of detection is bullshit <_<

In Wriggle's case, you cannot make a profit fighting her unless you manage to kill her with every single ward you use, and someone in every lane has to have them. Wards/tengu are an enormous drain on resources.

But of course if detection was easy to get then those girls would be useless. That's why stealth in RTS games has always been a shitty mechanic, it's always all or nothing.

[Dular]

It's because the cost of detection is bullshit <_<

Dots:
Kappa Life Detector: 200gold, 1600 sight range, 1000 true sight.  Lasts 3 minutes.  2 charges
Tengu Spy Camera: 200gold, 900 sight range, 900 true sight.  Lasts 3 minutes, placeable only on trees(they cannot be destroyed by any means).  2 charges.
Baby Tengu: 750gold, 1000 true sight range, drops on death.

Dota:
Sentry Ward: 200gold, 70 sight range, 950 true sight.  Lasts 3 minutes.  2 charges.
Dust of Appearance: 180gold, all enemies within 1050 range gets revealed for 12 seconds.  2 charges.
Gem of true sight: 700 gold, 1100 true sight range, drops on death.


It's about as costly as it is in dota, and earning money is probably a lot easier in dots than dota.  Wriggle is basically Rikimaru with a +100+(lvlx10) physical attack that silences instead of 120+agility damage, more invisibility, and no slow/long silence but instead gets additional attack(bugs) that heal her for 40% damage of each bug at the end.  Which in a typical case scenario, about 300.

As for where I'm going with this... It's pretty similar to deal with Wriggle in dots as it is in dota and Rikimaru.  If you don't buy wards, have an tanker ally with a gem/true sight ability, then yes, you will rage.

[Yukarin]

As for where I'm going with this... It's pretty similar to deal with Wriggle in dots as it is in dota and Rikimaru.  If you don't buy wards, have an tanker ally with a gem/true sight ability, then yes, you will rage.

I fought Riki in DoTA with Mortred once. It was a crit fight, haha.

Also agree. With gem, Riki (And in this case, Wriggle) is useless. Perma invi bonkers woo.

[PX]

The costs might be around the same, but the effectiveness in DotS is a lot lower. I did get a Tengu, but then proceeded to get nuked by the entire enemy team. And one of the most rage inducing parts about fighting Sunny is that she'll Windwalk, stun you, get a few attacks, and then just windwalk and run away, repeating. Even with a Tengu, Sunny will most likely just run away with that 2.4 second stun and the extra movement speed from windwalk. Wards are very inefficient considering the large lane size, the jump pads, and the forests with multiple paths through them, compared to DotA where almost everyone goes through the same 2 spots to gank. And getting a Tengu early game is a giant waste of money against Sunny considering it's very easy for you to get jumped, even if you her from a range, as the stun is more than enough for the people in lane to kill you.

[Dular]

True enough, ganking is a lot easier in dots than dota.  But the tank with large survivability and an 'oh dear' ability, such as Suika, China, is the one to hold the gem, and that will always ring true, regardless of dota or dots.  If you pick the caster or even certain agi types, they only just die from a jungle attack, or even from fighting the invisible person.  Gem stops Wriggle pretty well on most characters, but on Sunny?... Mmm.

If I had to compare though, I'd compare Sunny to Nerubian Assassin.  It'd certainly help a lot, and you probably won't die if you know what you are doing, but the escape speed and stun makes it much harder for a one man person to get you.  Unlike Nerubian, Sunny can invis way more often and has far far weaker attacks.  More annoying than deadly if anything.

Gem won't let you kill Sunny maybe, but it'll sure make you a lot less dead.

[Helepolis]

I am not happy with unban Sunny Milk to be honest, but I am open for experimental unbans when we notice girls being tweaked.

I am agreeing with Stuffman here on the concept of Stealth in RTS games. It is plain stupid and ghey. Having stealth is one thing. Having free stealth is retarded. Eirin is the only 'official' stealth caster which costs MP. The duration is pretty balanced and it doesn't grant the invisible person extra abilities.

Wriggle and Sunny are stupid because they gank abuse the element of surprise without effort and 0 skill.

I disagree heavily on the concept of "lolyou buy ward/gem, make them useless". You people make it sound easier than it is. (Yes, it is easy to buy those shit and they don't cost much perhaps). The point is: You mostly play in a 4v4 setup meaning there are more girls you should worry about. Nobody is going to spent 750 for a baby tengu early game and spamming wards too much will burn you down (see Stuffman's post). There are tons of examples I can give but it is all theorycrafting which is dumb.



I wouldn't be surprised if the Devs intentionally troll us. Sunny Milk is obviously a troll character, because she is one of the three mischievous fairies pulling pranks unseen. Well if that is the case, the devs accomplished their mission.

[Yukarin]

What about making Sunny and Wriggle a Bone Fletcher? No stun, but windwalk?

[Dormio Ergo Sum]

it doesn't grant the invisible person extra abilities.

Except for the part where it gives the target extra stats and magic resistance. :derp:

[Nightkriss]

unban for wriggle, ban for Sunny milk.

With the new tacticus and her skills scaling with strength she is a little annoying(if not OP).

[tbax704]

unban for wriggle, ban for Sunny milk.

With the new tacticus and her skills scaling with strength she is a little annoying(if not OP).

Tacticus is banned now. And about WRIGGLE, read my comments about her :

As for Wriggle, still banned. She instagibs ints by sneaking near them then attacking with D (which silences), use F, and there you go, easy kill. You can kill other girls easily by doing this.

[Rikter]

Buying wards/Tengu extremely early is not really a viable choice to get extremely early unless you know for a fact you will be the one laning Sunny. Even then you likely wouldn't be able to capitalize on them well because she can just run away with Wind Walk.

Anyways an Ichirin model was added to the DotS map as some of you already know. After deprotecting and looking through the map it actually has animations but I found no Unzan/triggers for them.

Also Tact isn't banned people are just overreacting to a new thing

[CloverNaght]

I disagree heavily on the concept of "lolyou buy ward/gem, make them useless". You people make it sound easier than it is. (Yes, it is easy to buy those shit and they don't cost much perhaps).

you can buy wards/tengu but....
DotA:invis based heroes without invis=meh
DotS:invis based heroes without invis=still rapes soon or later

[Dormio Ergo Sum]

Any money that you spend on detection is money that you're not using to buff up yourself, whilst the enemy team doesn't have to worry at all about wasting money on detection if you don't have a stealth hero on your side.
Which is lame.

[Dr Rawr]

Oh i see people would rather use that 750/200 gold on there control rods, phoenix wings, tacticus and such. Rather then getting a myon or tengu because those items are junk right? why should we auto counter one squishy hero when we can get those really nice items? wards last 3 mins, that means there are plenty of creep wave spawns to farm that 200 gold back. 3 minutes should be enough time to siege or defend. Oh right we get 2 wards for 200 gold, so if you place one at a time we get 6 mins of anti invis?

Guys come on, unless youre horrendous at  farming or you played satori, money isnt that much of any issue. Saying everyone has to buy them for there lane is not correct. Most mid games i see nowadays i see everyone go mid and start pushing or go left/right and push side tower down so having one person with a tengu/carry wards is viable. Im not saying wriggle isnt op(i hate her new D) but they do have a counter, ive played many matches on TW with people playing sunny and wriggle and i do have to say getting a tengu really helps.

If you want to ban girls with perma invis with awesome effects you may want to ban eirin also, it looks pretty bs to me.

[Dormio Ergo Sum]

I do buy tengu and the like. :V
Nobody else on my team was buying detection though.

I just dislike how you need to waste money for a hero that may or may not be wherever the hell you set up your detection.

I thought wards were shorter than 3 mins, that's good to know.

I'm not opposed to the Sunny unban (Wriggle can go die in a fire for all I care though) I just dislike the invis things. Dislike = Subjective

[Pesco]

In theory, yes we're supposed to buy those items. And I do admit that even though I know I'm supposed to, I don't exactly want to. It's the same kind of countermeasure as buying mag res against nukers. I consider it one of those differences between a noob/casual and a pro/serious player. Noobs don't make the nuance plays that are indicative of playing for the long term.

Assuming equal play skill between a Sunny and some other girl. Spend 200 on wards. Sunny creeps in and you kill Sunny because you planted wards. Get 200 gold back from the kill. You're effectively about 50 gold ahead now because you got your money back and have 1 more ward still.

[Dorakyura]

I think Sunny's invis is not the real problem in here. It's the stun that got a nerf and that stupid ultimate danmaku thing.
You just have to wait till the enemy is alone and noone is in disable range, then you stun and press W, you win  :V just like that stupid suika ultimate. 

*cough* Koishi vs Suika bash duel

[Rikter]

So guys I was going through the ability data to find where certain values are so they could be edited should anything go through with the balance stuff.

Important things I learned

"Shou's "Complete Clarification" damage increased from 220/330/440 to 250/375/500" -This change never happened

And there are 2 skills one labeled Kumoi01 and the other KumoiUZ1

[CloverNaght]

I'm neutral but i will say this. Support heroes should be the one who buys tengu/wards but the thing is we have roflmao aya with permaslardarsprint youmu with zomg -48armor mokou with zomg lv 1 lionulti AoE and you still dares to buy ward/tengu 24/7 you serious? Can Satori snipes people with 800 hp only? Can Ran tank like a god if her items are only broom+2 kebabs? Can Sanae avoid 0-15 score only with bento+cards at 9-10 mins? All the answers obv no
TL;DR supports should be the one who buys wards/tengus BUT they needs some farm too so don't expect you can see invis that easy (except someone is strong enough to carry tengu and early tengu is nono except you went push strat)
the metagame is really different compared to dota/hon/any AoS maps you can name

[Thanuris]

Assist in a kill and you have almost the gold for the wards (not the tengu... who gets tengu early game? unless you are steamrolling).

Also:

 Can Ran tank like a god if her items are only broom+2 kebabs? Yes, press W :V. Satori can't get items anyway even without buying wards/tengu, her farming sucks...

[CloverNaght]

Can Ran tank like a god if her items are only broom+2 kebabs? Yes, press W :V.

no
why?because Ran was my main and i can tell you that
Also i assume the situation is where both teams has both decent players so no zomg Shou went SF youtube style or w/e that is (that means both teams got simillar score at early-mid) so assist gold isn't that much useful because enemy ganks you too as much as you do)
of course you get much assist gold when your team steamrolls hard but whats the point of buying wards/tengu if your team got like 20-0 at about 25 mins?

[tbax704]

[04:28] <tbax704> is lucky finished yet
[04:28] <M-Reimu> [06:28] <tbax704> is lucky finished yet  < ask this 3 months later
[04:30] <Infinity> [07:28] <M-Reimu> [06:28] <tbax704> is lucky finished yet  < ask this 8 months later
[04:31] <Dorakyura> [23:30] <Infinity> [07:28] <M-Reimu> [06:28] <tbax704> is lucky finished yet  < ask never again

[Captain Infinity]

My thoughts on Sunny Milk after playing her for a few games:

Sunny Milk is a melee Wriggle that is visible for longer.  Her skills do little, and she requires element of surprise heavily, and only late game does she start to become a brawler type that oddly enough, is not a very good brawler compared to the likes other brawlers.  Her saving grace and causes rage is her invisible.  Seriously, get a Tengu and she can't do much to her by herself.

Rage worthy, but people don't want to use countermeasures so they lose.

I disagree completely, Sunny is fairly frightening early game and I played her for a while too. If you know how to use her R right it's a pretty amazing laning tool early on and her windwalk works wonders not only due to invisible but faster MS. Her ult is also rather painful for most early on. But she is more balanced with her latest nerfs so I'm happy.

[Dr Rawr]

no she has terrible strength growth, terrible damage, only viable thing about her is ability to run around and stun people in a tiny aoe but even then they would have to be slow fat or standing still to get hit by it. Patchy can pull off more damage with just her ficus, except its aoe, can do more damage, and can actually kill people. while sunny would have to spam her spells on cd just to reach that damage. She has little nuke damage, she has abysmal str, squishy do to her innate, and cant right click. Only viable thing is her ability to surprise people but after that she cant really follow up on that unless she has allies or some how got farmed from last hitting.

[CloverNaght]

Thats why ppl in garena use SDL as her core because she needs to constant gank
whats more shes not a really fast farmer (and shes not supposed to farm 24/7 for the 1st 30 mins lol)
i don't get it why devs nerf all the damages from all her skills instead of putting manacost for each of them

[Helepolis]

i don't get it why devs nerf all the damages from all her skills instead of putting manacost for each of them

Troll character I tell you. I see no other reason for it. Because it makes no sense. So must be troll.

[Amraphenson]

So apparently some of Patchy's skills crit? I for sure saw Ficus do so. Should we test?

[Captain Infinity]

So apparently some of Patchy's skills crit? I for sure saw Ficus do so. Should we test?

Fairly sure anything that's physical damage crits now.

[Dr Rawr]

for those who dont lurk enough over at DS lucky got a english board over on a chinese website  :V

so i guess you can go post stuff there i guess

http://www.touhou.cc/bbs/forumdisplay.php?fid=115&page=1