Author Topic: Labyrinth of Touhou 8F  (Read 262679 times)

Ozzy

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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 8F
« Reply #480 on: June 13, 2012, 05:06:33 AM »
Wait a minute...you guys banned Shikieiki and Ran, but not Mystia and Iku? BLASPHEMY! If I were in that draft of yours, I'd have first picked Iku, no questions asked. Every other role is replaceable, but with your bans there's only one decent offensive buffer available (and even then, I'd still argue Iku is more broken than all those bans except Meiling and Nitori).

Well Mystia was a candidate for ban early on. But none of us ever really used Iku as far as I know, so no one really thought she was that awesome.

Anyway, my obsession with Iku aside, for Ozzy's team I'd go with Wriggle as your slot 1 tank. Komachi isn't really that great when spec'd for tanking; you kind of need Minoriko to heal her if you're relying on her massive HP pool, since even Eirin can't fill it as fast as Minoriko can.

Funny, Wriggle was my last pick, the last pick of the draft period. I sure am glad to have her now after hearing that though.

Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 8F
« Reply #481 on: June 13, 2012, 07:32:39 AM »
But none of us ever really used Iku as far as I know, so no one really thought she was that awesome.

Iku is absolutely broken if used right. Forget her MAG and just build up her MND, this turns her into a great MND-tank and she doesn't need MAG for her primary role anyway. No other character can buff up your offensive stats as good as Iku. You will need high PAR resistance on most of your characters, but that is not hard to achieve and being immune to paralysis also helps in lots of boss battles anyway.

Pesco

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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 8F
« Reply #482 on: June 13, 2012, 10:06:49 AM »
Draft run looks pretty cool. Who's in to do one of our own?

Parallaxal

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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 8F
« Reply #483 on: June 13, 2012, 01:51:21 PM »
I just started a new game, as mentioned earlier, but I'm only on floor 3. I wouldn't mind restarting again for a draft. Unfortunately, I doubt I'd be able to get my beloved Iku (either to a ban, or someone else's first pick), but that's fine. At least I didn't blab too much about who else I think is an awesome sleeper, haha.

If there's one thing I learned about drafting from playing Magic: the Gathering, it's that drafting is not just about getting individually good units, but drafting with synergy and an archetype in mind. There are party archetypes in Labyrinth of Touhou as well, which tend to fall on two different axis. This will be a good opportunity for me to theorycraft and put my theories into practice.

I wouldn't mind doing a draft with just 4 bans and no shared characters between us. I'm not really as attached to Reimu as some other people are, and would be willing to let someone else first pick her or something. As for bans, I'd definitely consider Meiling, Iku, and Nitori as the top 3 characters in the game. The 4th ban can be whoever else you think is worthy, including even Reimu (hey, I just said I personally don't like using her, not that she isn't great). My personal suggestion would be banning Renko, not because she's head-and-shoulders better than everyone else, but because she's too binary; either she makes bosses trivially easy, or contributes nothing at all to the boss fight.

Pesco

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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 8F
« Reply #484 on: June 13, 2012, 03:07:33 PM »
4 bans and no shares sounds good to me. I'd personally ban Eirin because nobody really wants to use her :V.

Meiling, Iku, Nitori and Renko ban is fine with me. That leaves us with 36 to choose from. One more for the draft and we'll have 3 runs of our drafted 12.

If you consider this draft like MtG, then there's bound to be hate-drafting too :V

Parallaxal

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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 8F
« Reply #485 on: June 13, 2012, 03:22:03 PM »
Oh, I know. I have half a mind to claim all the best remaining tanks, but then again I'm not that cruel. Truth is, hate drafting in MtG is only good if there's nothing in the pack for you (not even a sideboard card). Unlike in MtG, here every character is useable in our party, if sub-optimal. And it's not like we're pitting our own parties against each other or anything. Nope, hate drafting is just a form of griefing here (which is admittedly amusing and can be argued to have its place).

I've got a pick order flowchart coming along right now. I know what my #1 pick is and my contingency plan if I don't get her. I'm also prepared to go into two different party archetypes (each with separate pick orders) depending on who my #2 pick ends up being (and who my #2 pick is depends on whether or not I get my #1 pick). The exciting part is considering whether or not you guys value certain characters as highly as I do. Can I expect a particular character to wheel even though they're a high priority for me personally, but might not be widely considered high tier?

Yeah, I'm getting a bit too into this, hahaha, but this does sound quite fun. Limited is my favorite format in MtG, after all, plus I love theorycrafting about games. After we finish drafting, I'll post up my pick order flowchart and explain the choices, and would love to hear feedback concerning my logic.

Now we just need one more person to step up. Come on, join us!

Raikaria

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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 8F
« Reply #486 on: June 13, 2012, 03:24:25 PM »
I have a save-slot, I'll be the 3rd wheel to your draft Pesco and Para. I'll just need a few mins to plan out a team and contingency.

And figure out how to get the game to recognise the 3.01 save file.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2012, 03:28:28 PM by Raikaria »


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Pesco

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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 8F
« Reply #487 on: June 13, 2012, 03:28:38 PM »
Nice. Let's get this done on IRC.

Webchat link. We should be fairly uninterrupted there and there's a bot for us to roll pick order.

Parallaxal

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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 8F
« Reply #488 on: June 13, 2012, 03:31:11 PM »
Can you give me roughly 1 hour? That's when I'll be on my lunch break. Right now I'm actually still at work, hahaha...(yeah, I'm so bad).

Serela

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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 8F
« Reply #489 on: June 13, 2012, 03:32:08 PM »
Yeah I'd probably vote Iku as more broken then, say, Shikieiki. Shiki gets balanced out by her huge MP costs sorta, anyway. Her SP recovery isn't that great and her leveling rate and SP pool aren't too great either, so it doesn't grow fast enough to be able to really use much with her. While her attacks are certainly very strong, they aren't insane like Nitori's even when you can cast them.

The thing is though, Iku brings in a cheap and highly effective single-target offensive buff. Mister first guy's team has several strong attackers with their OWN offensive buffs, plus Keine's buffs (even if you can't cast them too much for a good while), so he actually gets by without her pretty fine. She does do so with ridiculous mind, but, yeah, he'll be fine.

Eirin and Wriggle should be built tankily. Well, so should Sanae, but that goes more without saying (I think... but seriously, she needs the MND so she doesn't fall over when healing). This team looks pretty painful to use, honestly, while still being doable. You've got passable tanks and healers and sources of damage, but it'll be a bit of a thing. Wriggle's poison will help you out a lot, I think. She was amazing when I used her. I do also recommend offensive Komachi, she doesn't lose much in the tank department and isn't exactly a tank anyway; she can't stay out for that long unless Minoriko healspammed her, who you don't have. She's good for not going down when you do switch her in, though.

Maribel will shine some since she's able to self-buff. There is no offensive buffers in this team, and Sanae REALLY does not count because she's so slow at getting them up and not durable enough to really stay out and spam reliably. This also makes Wriggle shine more; like, Wriggle's poison is great compared to BUFFED attackers. She'll be megaawesome with most of them unbuffed :getdown:

Mystia is pretty silly with her paralysis and poison combo move, for the first team. It's not wriggle, but it's pretty strong. Honestly, the first team is really nice. The last team is a little eyebrow raising damage-dealer wise, but definitely still nice, and it has Iku, so that makes up for everything.
<mauvecow> see this is how evil works in reality, it just wears you down with bureaucracy until you don't care anymore

Pesco

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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 8F
« Reply #490 on: June 13, 2012, 03:33:33 PM »
I'm around generally all the time. The hour gives me time to plan my picks.

Parallaxal

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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 8F
« Reply #491 on: June 13, 2012, 03:34:38 PM »
And just to clarify, pick order loops around so that 3rd and 4th pick go to the same person, right?

Pesco

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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 8F
« Reply #492 on: June 13, 2012, 03:39:05 PM »
1>2>3>1>2>3 was how I was expecting it to go. I get the logic for 1>2>3>3>2>1 though.

Parallaxal

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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 8F
« Reply #493 on: June 13, 2012, 03:50:08 PM »
Well, I'm planning my strategy around 1>2>3>3>2>1.

That's how you're suppose to do Rochester drafts, which is the closest MtG analog to what we're doing. In Rochester draft, draft order reverses after everyone completes a pick.

Pesco

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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 8F
« Reply #494 on: June 13, 2012, 03:59:58 PM »
Rochester draft order makes more sense now since we can see each other's picks. Let's go with that then.

Parallaxal

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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 8F
« Reply #495 on: June 13, 2012, 04:12:20 PM »
Okay, I'm actually ready now.

Raikaria

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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 8F
« Reply #496 on: June 13, 2012, 05:12:41 PM »
Well, I got firstpick and went:

Tenshi
Sanae
Aya
Marisa
Rin
Wriggle
Sukia
Cirno
Remillia
Yuuka
Kanako
Utusho

Basically, I have a lot of damage and some solid tanks, but nothing to really back them up in terms of defense buffs outside of Tenshi's own.


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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 8F
« Reply #497 on: June 13, 2012, 05:25:46 PM »
Tenshi
Sanae
Aya
Marisa
Rin
Wriggle
Sukia
Cirno
Remillia
Yuuka
Kanako
Utusho
Basically, I have a lot of damage and some solid tanks, but nothing to really back them up in terms of defense buffs outside of Tenshi's own.

Sanae is your only healer, this might be a problem in fights with a lot of multitarget damage.
Are you planning on building Remilia offensive or defensive? You really lack a character who can do decent non-elemental damage if you build her for DEF and there are some bosses with 150+ in all affinities, afaik. And it's not like she can't comfortably stay in slot2 24/7 with an ATK-build anyway. Wriggle would probably have to take slot 1 for those few bosses with Rasetsu Fist then.

Raikaria

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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 8F
« Reply #498 on: June 13, 2012, 05:31:53 PM »
Remi was going for an attack build. I picked her because I needed both damage and tankiness.

The lack of healing and defense buffs is an issue, but I can speedbuff Sanae with Aya and basically use her as a dedicated buff/heal bot. Orin's speed is more than enough to get her in and out as need be. I have Yuuka to heal too later in the game, a 10% team heal is helpful, and Yuuka can remove stat-downs. That's why I picked her even when I already had Marisa.

A big thing on my comp is also debuffs. I have Poision from Wriggle, I have Cirno's Para and Slows, Utusho's and Orin's defense drops. I wanted Reisen but she was taken.


http://www.malevole.com/mv/misc/tribute/
I don't even remember who put the above in my sig. [Wasn't me] Nor do I understand why I keep it here anymore.
Those two facts sum me up pretty well.

Parallaxal

  • Moon Sign "Theft of Dreams"
Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 8F
« Reply #499 on: June 13, 2012, 05:58:39 PM »
Going into the draft, here's what I had written down on my flowchart. Picks in each category are listed in rough order of how highly I value them, although it's really kind of variable depending on who I already have (for example, if I have Youmu then Yuugi's priority would go down).

Quote
Pick 1 - Minoriko
Reimu (if Minoriko is taken)
Tenshi + Sanae (if I'm 3rd and both Minoriko and Reimu are taken)

Pick 2 - Keine (if I have Minoriko)
Tenshi (if I don't have Minoriko)
Wriggle (if either of the above are taken)

If I have Tenshi, pick Burst archetype enablers next
If I have Keine, pick DPS archetype enablers next
If I have Wriggle, remain open (pick wild cards)

Burst archetype:

Enablers:
Kaguya (also decent enabler for DPS)
Ran (consider taking for DPS as damage dealer)
Yukari
Rinnosuke

Damage dealers:
Youmu
Suwako (consider taking for DPS due to PAR lock)
Yuugi
Kanako
Flandre (consider taking for DPS, but risky)
Shikieiki
Mokou
Yuyuko
Suika
Marisa
Maribel

DPS archetype:

Enablers:
Aya
Sakuya
Sanae (works better as a healer in Burst, as buffer in DPS)

Damage dealers:
Patchouli
Alice
Orin
Remilia
Chen
Komachi
Yuuka

Wild cards: (can work well in any party)
Mystia (high priority)
Reisen (high priority)
Rumia
Cirno

Try to avoid:
Utsuho
Eirin

My reasoning was that Minoriko was top priority because she can turn any half-decent tank into an excellent one for a low cost at any point in the game. After that, I wanted Keine, not that I thought she's a better tank than Tenshi, but because I wanted to try out the DPS setup instead of the Burst one, and Keine works better in the former than the latter (her SPD is too high to be a good switcher).

Next up I wanted to draft enablers and wild cards, with damage dealers dead last. Even if I went with a DPS setup, most of the damage dealers from the Burst archetype still work, just not as optimally. The DPS setup uses speed buffs to help characters with reasonably decent delays on their attacks stay in and spam their moves. This minimizes the need for switching, which allows Keine and Minoriko to concentrate on buffing and healing instead.

My actual draft picks were, in order:

Minoriko
Keine
Ran
Suwako
Reisen
Sakuya
Youmu
Patchouli
Flandre
Yuyuko
Shikieiki
Maribel

As the 3rd drafter in our pick order, I got to grab Minoriko and Keine first, which was exactly what I wanted. Both Aya and Kaguya were taken immediately after, so I decided to go with Ran to shore up my need for buffs. However, with my final team I might consider just building her as a straight attacker. But that's why I picked her here: because she has the versatility to fulfill either role. I also noticed that both Reimu and Mystia were taken, and I didn't really want Cirno when I stood a good chance of picking up Reisen, so I grabbed Suwako for the strong PAR effect.

For my next two picks, I got Reisen and Sakuya to finish off my team's need for utility players. Reisen was actually one of my highest priority characters (I value her almost as much as I do Mystia), but I correctly guessed that I could pick her up around the middle of the pack because I figured most people don't like her as much as I do. Sakuya was the last utility character I picked up because while she does fill an irreplacable role in my team, Raikaria already had a speed buffer and Pesco was looking to draft the Burst archetype, which doesn't need speed buffs at all. I might have even been able to get away with picking her later than I did.

With the utility requirements of my team complete, I was finally looking to draft pure damage dealers. Luckily, I already had Reisen, Ran, and Suwako, all of who are excellent damage dealers in addition to the utility they offered. By this point several of the good DPS damage dealers were already claimed (Alice, Orin, etc.), so I went with Patchouli and Youmu to cover both magical and physical damage. While Youmu does offer great bursty high delay damage with Slash of Eternity, her Flashing Cherry Blossoms has remarkably low delay for its power and could work in a DPS setup if necessary. Plus, her staying in lets me take advantage of her bonus SP focus in the early game. Flandre and Yuyuko were my next picks, once again covering two different damage types. Both have low delay moves that don't demand my switching them out, so they still fit reasonably well into my strategy (although Flandre is a bit fragile for what I want to do).

My last two picks were simply the remaining characters not on my "try to avoid" list. Maribel works as a second Reisen, just worse in most ways (but gains some merits in a Burst party setup). I was really surprised to see Shikieiki coming this late, as I figured whoever was drafting the Burst archetype would have grabbed her by then. She doesn't fit well with a DPS strategy, but sometimes it's nice to have a plan B that's completely different from plan A for situations where plan A isn't the best. Also, I did technically pick up a multi-target PAR spell, didn't I?

Anyway, I'm pretty happy with my team. I got most of the utility characters that I wanted, and while the damage dealers are somewhat interchangeable, I think I came out well with those too. My team looks to have the best early game out of all the teams drafted, but I've still got some late-game characters like Reisen, Flandre, Yuyuko, and Shikieiki. Elemental coverage looks great as well, missing only a good CLD nuke (which only Kanako has anyway). Overall, I'm quite pleased with how this went.

Pesco

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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 8F
« Reply #500 on: June 13, 2012, 06:01:18 PM »
The lists and their pick order. Just put Tenshi and Minoriko as first pick of their respective lists.

Quote
[19:24:30] <@Keine-tan> Serela: "pescolist" is (#1) Mystia, or (#2) Reimu, or (#3) Kaguya, or (#4) Yuugi, or (#5) Alice, or (#6) Rumia, or (#7) Komachi, or (#8) Chen, or (#9) Rinnosuke, or (#10) Yukari, or (#11) Mokou, or (#12) Eirin

[19:24:34] <@Keine-tan> Serela: "raikaria" is (#1) Sanae, or (#2) Aya, or (#3) Marisa, or (#4) Rin, or (#5) Wriggle, or (#6) Sukia, or (#7) Cirno, or (#8) Remillia, or (#9) Yuuka, or (#10) Kanako, or (#11) Utusho, or (#12) Tenshi

[19:24:38] <@Keine-tan> Serela: "parallaxalist" is (#1) Keine, or (#2) Ran, or (#3) Suwako, or (#4) Reisen, or (#5) Sakuya, or (#6) Youmu, or (#7) Patchouli, or (#8) Flandre, or (#9) Yuyuko, or (#10) Shikeiki, or (#11) Maribel, or (#12) Minoriko

NG+ save file with all the BP requirements pre-set attached. I'll link it in the OP as well for other people to use.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2012, 11:24:28 AM by Pesco »

Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 8F
« Reply #501 on: June 13, 2012, 06:10:11 PM »
Flandre and Yuyuko were my next picks, once again covering two different damage types. Both have low delay moves that don't demand my switching them out, so they still fit reasonably well into my strategy (although Flandre is a bit fragile for what I want to do).

I don't think leaving Flandre in in bossbattles is ever a good idea. She has decent max-hp, so she can probably take a hit in the beginning despite her terrible defenses, but after 2 or 3 starbow breaks she will be at 1hp for the rest of the battle and even the weakest row-target attacks will kill her in slot4.

Edit: After looking at the list I'm really surprised that some characters were picked so late. Especially Yukari, she was one of the last characters?
« Last Edit: June 13, 2012, 06:16:02 PM by Nerv-Faktor »

Parallaxal

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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 8F
« Reply #502 on: June 13, 2012, 06:12:03 PM »
I don't think leaving Flandre in in bossbattles is ever a good idea. She has decent max-hp, so she can probably take a hit in the beginning despite her terrible defenses, but after 2 or 3 starbow breaks she will be at 1hp for the rest of the battle and even the weakest row-target attacks will kill her in slot4.

I'm quite aware of that. I plan to leave her in only against bosses with few multi-target attacks, or against things I can PAR-lock with Suwako. There are several examples of the former that I can think of. For example, Yuugi's boss fight, Rinnosuke's first and last forms, and Foe-type bosses in between Flowing Hellfire.

I believe that disregarding enemy attacks, a SPD-buffed Flandre has the highest DPS of any character without switching out (Chen might be close, but Flandre benefits more from others buffing her). It's risky, as I noted earlier, but it might just be worth the risk.

Edit: After looking at the list I'm really surprised that some characters were picked so late. Especially Yukari, she was one of the last characters?

Yukari doesn't fit with the strategy that I had, and Pesco already had Kaguya early. Although I suppose Raikaria could have picked Yukari earlier, she seems to fit well into that party.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2012, 06:20:42 PM by Parallaxal »

Mr. Sacchi

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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 8F
« Reply #503 on: June 13, 2012, 06:21:57 PM »
Just asking, does anyone have a link to the Pocket Wars pack? The one on Poosh is linked to Megaupload and well...  :derp:

Parallaxal

  • Moon Sign "Theft of Dreams"
Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 8F
« Reply #504 on: June 13, 2012, 06:23:37 PM »
Just asking, does anyone have a link to the Pocket Wars pack? The one on Poosh is linked to Megaupload and well...  :derp:

I'm not sure if it's in one of the links in the first post, but I could upload it later when I get home if you still haven't found it by then.

(You are asking for the character portraits, right?)

Raikaria

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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 8F
« Reply #505 on: June 13, 2012, 06:26:35 PM »
I'll admit I went in without knowing what Archetype I wanted. So I went and firstpicked Tenshi for a reliable tank. [She's listed last because I didn't know the command for IRC when I picked her]

I was intending to pick Minoriko next, however she was snapped up Para first [Sane situation as Tenshi]. Reimu was also picked by Pesco. As a result, my second pick was Sanae, because Eirin wouldn't exactly cut it when healing Tenshi. I picked Aya because I knew I wanted Aya's speedbuff, the healing pool was already dying up, so I needed speed to keep Sanae up with demand.

Another round of picks passed, and I lost Reisen, who I wanted. I picked up Marisa for trash cleaning and Master Spark, and Rin for swapping, debuffs, and general utility in many situations.

Wriggle was next because I wanted her reliable poisions, and Sukia was because I needed a physical nuke.

Next round was Cirno, because I realised I needed paralysis, and Remi as a secondary tank and non-elemental damage dealer.

Yuuka and Kanako were mainly filler, although they have high damage capabilty, and double Master Spark really lets me nuke bosses. Utusho was the last one left.

I wanted Keine and Reisen, but alas, I didn't get them.


@ Headphones: I belive it's included in one of the two packs listed on the OP. Can't recall which one though.


http://www.malevole.com/mv/misc/tribute/
I don't even remember who put the above in my sig. [Wasn't me] Nor do I understand why I keep it here anymore.
Those two facts sum me up pretty well.

Parallaxal

  • Moon Sign "Theft of Dreams"
Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 8F
« Reply #506 on: June 13, 2012, 06:34:38 PM »
Well, you took my Aya and Orin, so we're even. :P

It's really interesting to see how drastically different we value certain characters in this format, compared to just a regular game. With Meiling and Iku banned, Tenshi and Keine jump up tremendously in value. With no Nitori to work with, Yukari drops in our esteem. It's amazing how priorities shift once an alternative is sealed off.

Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 8F
« Reply #507 on: June 13, 2012, 06:40:13 PM »
Yukari has more going for her than just Spiriting Away though.
Especially IN Quadraple Barrier for Raikaria's team. And she's a passable tank as well.

Pesco

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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 8F
« Reply #508 on: June 13, 2012, 06:45:57 PM »
Team (9) solo was totally viable if only Raikaria hadn't taken Wriggle and Cirno just the turn before I was going to take them.

I sort of went with my favourite characters first since I was familiar with I should do with them. My picks were between Para and Raikaria so I wouldn't often get the best at anything other than my first picks. Yukari and Rinno were taken to be my tanks. But Yuugi may end up being my slot 1 with one of those in slot 2. I'm also pretty pressed for choice with my MND tank. I'm going pure MND on Reimu, Kaguya and Eirin for that. Everyone else on my team is on attack duty. My mages are pretty lacking as I'll only have Rumia and Mokou as dedicated mages. Alice replaces Yuugi's KO3S since Return Inanimateness targets DEF.

Parallaxal

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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou 8F
« Reply #509 on: June 13, 2012, 06:49:44 PM »
You know, Kaguya is more than capable of being a MAG-based nuker.

Just sayin'.

But support Kaguya is fine too. Her MND is even better than I gave it credit for. And both her and Yukari can become a second copy of whoever you need anyway.