| ~Beyond the Border~ > Genji's Battle Arena |
| [SC - Melee] General Thread |
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| Fetch()tirade:
--- Quote from: kactaplb on July 11, 2011, 12:40:03 AM ---You can't warpin infestors. Infestors still have to rally and walk to my bioball, k tnx. --- End quote --- Keep in mind that a P can only produce X amount of units per X amount of warpgates. Although they have the ability to warp in anywhere as long as it's next to a pylon, there's at least a 30-second wait (not CB'd) until the gates are ready again. On the other hand, zerg hatcheries/lairs/hives can produce multiple units at once, up to a maximum of 19 each. Terran structures can have reactors, which allows for double the rate of production for key units like marines and medivacs (though this doesn't apply for units that require tech labs like tanks, thors, banshees, etc). --- Quote ---Most P I've seen have most of their wgs all in 1 spot no? You can also chrono them without going back to your base, use your minimap. And yes, people use chrono on wgs during engagements, as do Z for their larva injects. --- End quote --- Not exactly. Depending on the style of the player and the events of a particular game, gateways are often used defensively to wall off expos (especially vs zerg). And how accurate do you think chrono-ing from the minimap is? Very hard, from past experience. I've tried using CBs on my nexuses from the minimap, and it's not an easy task. The reason zergs can inject before/during/after combat is because they bind all of their hatches/lairs/hives (and sometimes their respective queens too) to different hotkeys. Binding every warpgate to its own key would be a terrible idea. The only time I could see a protoss chrono-ing during a fight is when he or she is making a frantic defense off of 1 or 2 bases. --- Quote ---And chronoing spellcasters seems like a fun idea, but ...even early game hard to balance, a mass sentry build, FF, and then LOLFF again? --- End quote --- Except sentries do shit for DPS. Mass sentries is only used (by the pros) for securing expos, for defense, or for teh lulz. Using chrono on sentries would damage to an early game economy and would be better off getting probes, upgrades, or some actual attacking units. HTs without support also get raped quickly since Storm requires that the enemy units be within a certain radius. --- Quote ---yea... And late game would turn into spell spam with P massing nexus just for energy, since there is so much surplus minerals. --- End quote --- Don't zerg get macro-hatches? Don't terrans get macro-CCs? |
| kactaplb:
Well, blizz needs to find another mechanic for lategame nexus energy then. The CC and Queens are supposed to be a macro mechanic. You are right, mid-late game P doesn't really need nexus/chrono energy. So that's why this would be too powerful, P will have 200 energy at every nexus=free storm/ff. The macro CC and macro hatches are just that, for macro purposes. Something like transfuse on queens is completely different, and quite useless late. Oh and queens take supply. --- Quote ---On the other hand, zerg hatcheries/lairs/hives can produce multiple units at once, up to a maximum of 19 each. Terran structures can have reactors, which allows for double the rate of production for key units like marines and medivacs (though this doesn't apply for units that require tech labs like tanks, thors, banshees, etc). --- End quote --- I may sound like Idrarageqq here, but this is precisely why I feel T can't keep up with the other races in production. Marines are terrible late game. Really armies are judged by their gas value in sc2, not food value. People complain T cheese, early game imba? Blame blizz for making T production so weak late game. T has to constantly army trade/harrass to keep up in both worker count and army "gas" value. While mules make up a lot for the economy differences, P and Z will win outright if T is super passive and isn't doing some sort of 2 base/turtle timing cheesy play. This terrible production is also why there is no more pure mech play, the build time is far too long. Also, cd on wg might be 30 s, but there is no rally or walk time. In practice, I believe P can remax their army the quickest. I mean... 12+ wg, you don't even need chrono... /rage I wish blizz would take out these 1 trick pony macro mechanics. Being able to max easily off of 2 base 13 min in game...That never happened in BW. |
| Fetch()tirade:
--- Quote from: kactaplb on July 11, 2011, 05:07:34 PM ---Well, blizz needs to find another mechanic for lategame nexus energy then. The CC and Queens are supposed to be a macro mechanic. You are right, mid-late game P doesn't really need nexus/chrono energy. So that's why this would be too powerful, P will have 200 energy at every nexus=free storm/ff. The macro CC and macro hatches are just that, for macro purposes. Something like transfuse on queens is completely different, and quite useless late. Oh and queens take supply. I may sound like Idrarageqq here, but this is precisely why I feel T can't keep up with the other races in production. Marines are terrible late game. Really armies are judged by their gas value in sc2, not food value. People complain T cheese, early game imba? Blame blizz for making T production so weak late game. T has to constantly army trade/harrass to keep up in both worker count and army "gas" value. While mules make up a lot for ~*~~*~the economy~*~~*~ differences, P and Z will win outright if T is super passive and isn't doing some sort of 2 base/turtle timing cheesy play. This terrible production is also why there is no more pure mech play, the build time is far too long. Also, cd on wg might be 30 s, but there is no rally or walk time. In practice, I believe P can remax their army the quickest. I mean... 12+ wg, you don't even need chrono... /rage I wish blizz would take out these 1 trick pony macro mechanics. Being able to max easily off of 2 base 13 min in game...That never happened in BW. --- End quote --- I agree with you that Terran production is quite lethargic in comparison to the other two races. I understand that Terran is supposed to be a sort of middle ground between the macro-focused Zerg and the micro-intensive Protoss. They can construct buildings virtually everywhere on the map, and most of those buildings can move to more advantageous positions, i.e. acquiring tech labs/reactors or taking island expos, a convenience neither of the other two has (to be clear, protoss can also construct virtually anywhere but the buildings cannot move and they must have a power source, which is 100 minerals down the drain). However, they lose out in the fact that the production facilities can only pump out 1 or 2 units at a time (zerg can train multiple larvae) and that there is a significant wait time before the unit(s) is/are produced (protoss warp-ins only take a few seconds). This especially applies to heavy mech or air builds, in which factories or starports with tech labs have to churn out expensive units slowly. On the other hand, marines and marauders can be pumped out fairly quickly and are extremely potent against all unit types, especially with stim. [On an unrelated note, this is why I believe that the current Terran metagame focuses heavily on MMM and/or marine-tank builds.] E: If nexus energy can't be used to make spellcasters more useful, can you suggest another way? I'm not challenging you, I'm just wondering to see if there are better ways to handle this. Seriously, during the late game, nexuses are only good for keeping the protoss's base from being revealed. Oh, and if I could ask Blizzard one more thing, it would be: Please make Motherships more powerful. The fire rate is pitifully slow, and they are pretty fragile considering their cost and training time. |
| helvetica:
It only takes 3 sentries to FF a ramp permanently. Giving energy regen to chrono boost would make sentry cheese ridiculous (split army up ramp, wall off and kill natural uncontested). |
| kactaplb:
Well, to be fair, T doesn't really use mules or scans all that often late game. I think it's mostly fine the way it is, you still chrono that robo/sg all game long, and forge and high templar upgrades still take some time. Z is only one that constantly needs to be busy with queens. We will have to wait and see with the next expansions. Blizz is implementing limited region linking, and if any of you still play sc2, we should all try to get together and play a few games. Im in NA region. Or at least some good old bw games... I usually hang out at #dots-meido. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=242929 Funny to see that blizz finally developed this "magical" technology. See? Having everyone be able to play on a different regions is possible after all. Maybe after blizz milk all our money from us, will they let us cross region for free. edit: oh I wish they would get rid of mothership. so slow, so useless. but, sc2 is all about the showy and flashy new units. They are going to redesign the overseer instead, cuz it's boring. The one change I wish to see the most is changing the gateway/wg mechanic. Have the gateway be able to build all the units, but wg only tier 1/1.5 units. This would force the P to choose, a bit like T reactor/tech labs, and it would stop this retarded instawarp in tier 2+ units. |
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