Zombie Apocalypse Mafia - GAME OVER

[Kilgamayan]

Well this was a grand waste of time, it seems. Here is an anthology of Schezo's comments about huh what and Bard pre-Ediclaim. (The entire post, in fact, is a study of pre-Ediclaim actions, since post-ediclaim actions are going to come with piles of WIFOM.)

http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,8718.msg582505.html#msg582505

"Bard makes a good post which I agree with."

http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,8718.msg583598.html#msg583598

"huh what looks a little strange for pushing Bard so much but I don't think he's that bad when he's run around with ideas and seems to be trying."

That's it. :|

Also while looking for those I stopped and looked at Bard's posts as well and basically never saw any mention of Schezo.

huh what was only mildly better. He mentioned Schezo merely in passing here in a way where no opinion can be gleaned (similar to this post later), and there was then this, which is kinda-I-guess accusatory but doesn't appear to be anything serious between the two of them through the courseo f the short conversation and kinda ends on a non-conclusion from huh what that suggests he's more interested in hearing from Shadoweh instead. This post, however, does finally provide an opinion on Schezo, for all that "reading him as derp" is worth (and I honestly don't think it is worth much but it's still better than nothing).

Finally, there's this, which is an L-2 admonishment more than an actual opinion, so, uh.

So what can be concluded here? That none of them ever really interacted with each other in any meaningful way. Schezo did not really have clear opinions of either of them, Bard did not have a clear opinion of Schezo, and huh what's lone opinion expression was "reading him as derp", which isn't very useful, so. Basically this was a giant waste of time in terms of trying to figure out which of Bard and huh what is more likely to be Schezo's scum buddy, and nothing in here comes even remotely close to weighing up to my feelings on Bard getting on Hourai at a swing time vs. huh what looking for all the world like he was trying to get himself OFF of the Hourai wagon.

I had several small dizzy spells while going through the game to find this non-information so I am going to take a nap now and I dare any of you to try and stop me.

[capt. h]

K, waging a war on the ants at the computer, mostly winning. This consists of forcefully blowing away every ant I see, and after a few hours, it seems to have made using the computer... realistic.

Haven't caught up at all, but one thing I'd really like to say is that capt.h, you are trying waaay too hard, and reading into things to the level of conspiracy theories.
Okay,um.

Let's look at something you said on the previous page.>I abandoned someone not on Edible's list to chase someone else not on Edible's list
And then when someone asks you why not-on-the-list A(Dormio) being town means not-on-the-list B(PX) is scum or vice versa, you say "WHY ARE YOU TRYING TO CHANGE THE CONVERSATION TO PEOPLE NOT ON THE LIST". What the hell?

No, I meant why was Bard suggesting that there might be two scum not on the list? Why did Bard think that there was a possibility of 4 scum in addition to a traitor role, and decide to bring that possibility up to question why I thought there was only one scum not on the list?

See, I don't think Dormio and PX can both be scum at the same time. He thought both could be scum. I think that assertion is strange.

[capt. h]

Huh What did have a meaningful discussion about Schezo, but it was the only one I could find.

(Apologies for suddenly being Baity formatting-wise, but there's a lot to talk about and I'd like to seperate the important stuff from everything else.)

I dislike like how people are throwing around Edible conspiracy theories so soon. The notion that a scum would make a claim like this with a vig around when said scum has generally flown under the radar and is not even close to being on the chopping block is pretty ridiculous.

It should be noted that I strongly believe Shadoweh to be town at this juncture due to the circumstances of her claim if the theories about Hourai being a traitor are true, and that I also know for a fact that she did not attempt to do anything other than pass on the radio last night (which means that her being a scum dayvig going on the NK is out of the picture). I'm also aware of who currently has Set B, but I will keep quiet about that if they do not want to disclose it publically.


Schezo is definitely my first choice out of all Edible's targets right now. His ED2 wagon jump on her seems way too much like he's using the opinions of a dead townie in lieu of his own, and his attacks on Shadoweh in general have often come off as reportery shotgun attacks without any significantly heavy points to hang her over. As for people other than Shadoweh, Schezo's opinions on them typically boil down to one-liners which do not clearly reveal any particular suspicion. I re-read through all his posts and could honestly not tell who else he thought was scum at all, and his completely unexplained change of heart from PX being a blatant bandwagonner to a decent-looking player with conviction cleared by meta struck me as a bit odd especially. I'd like to see him go back and explain how that happened, considering how I was pressured for something similiar. Schezo's one-liner opinions on players other than Shadoweh are actually rather inconsistant in general if you look at his posting history, and he seems to discard and/or alter them fairly frequently between posts.

I also find his interactions with his Hourai vote to be very interesting, considering the traitor interactions and the possibility that Hourai had a buddy who could tap into the radio conversations. Between Schezo's Hourai vote and unvote, Hourai revealed that he had radio access, which could possibly mean that scum suddenly realized Hourai had access to their information and that he was likely to be the traitor (though this is relying on the belief that scum knew of the existance of a traitor beforehand).

As for Schezo's buddy, I find Kilgamayan to be the best choice there after looking into their interactions today, due to their blatant shilling of eachother in a few of their posts today making a link between them apparent. I strongly disagree with Kilga's claim that Schezo's other posts have been solid for reasons I have already explained and I would like him to elaborate on how the content was "solid", considering how easily Schezo altered everything aside from his Shadoweh case between posts. It should be noted that I don't think Kilga's recent pressure on Schezo makes them any less likely to be buddies, since if scum were in this situation it seems likely that bussing would be their best chance of recovering from it early on.

In spite of this, I actually have little on Kilga beyond his awkward link to Schezo, since it seemed to me that Kilga's vote on Conqueror was rather believable. I would strongly prefer to see Schezo eat the bullet first, since I have much more conviction on him and could definitely be convinced to attack somebody other than Kilga depending on the circumstances of Schezo's flip.

##Unvote
##Vote Schezo to reflect my opinions, though I really have no idea how we're even supposed to vote in this current situation anyway. <_< FWIW, I haven't dropped my charges against Colt either, but he's obviously not worth pursuing right now.


@Bardiche: You can't really fix something after it has already been posted, unless you're expecting that Colt's buddies would force him to run all his posts by them first, which I doubt. If you want to interpret Colt's actions from the PoV of somebody being carried through the game by buddies, it actually seems quite possible that they would request his help hammering on Conqueror, only for him to lose motivation out of fear somebody will jump on him for it.

It doesn't really seem like you have much on my D2 opener beyond the shaky attack on my Colt case, honestly. |:

Bard and Shadoweh should probably both fullclaim considering the circumstances of the day, seriously what the hell is up with so many vigs running around this game. (I'm actually wondering if a massclaim among Edible's targets might actually be helpful, since only two of us haven't softclaimed anyway. Not too sure thought due to a lack of experience with massclaims, so I'd like comments on this.) I would also like to know why Bard isn't even remotely suspicious that there's another claimed killing role running around when a townie has already flipped as a one-shot vig. That strikes me as off.

[capt. h]

Here are my thoughts on Bardiche, Huh What, and Schezo:

Hourai tried pretty hard to start a train on Huh What on day one back when no one had more than three votes, and it backfired on him. So it was either a grave scum miscalculation, or Huh What is probably town.

Kilga tried to eat a bullet for Bard. That's really bad scum playing. So he's either town, or a scum buddy.

Now, I say scum buddy because there is the possibility that Edible's test captured three scum, not just two. With this possibility, it makes sense that to prevent the destruction of a more powerful scum ability/player, two of the scum would be willing to bite the bullet and let the third scum live. Otherwise, I really don't get why town Kilga would eat a bullet knowing himself town for Bardiche, who we don't know is town.

Bard has done several things that scream scum so loudly that it's actually hard to believe he's scum. He killed UK night one, exactly like he said he would in signups if he were scum. And he hasn't actually claimed vig powers - we just assumed it. The only thing he claimed was that he killed UK. He's taken refuge in audacity.

Now I might be over thinking things, and I might think better of it later, but I'm willing to bet Bardiche is more likely than the others.

##Vote: Bardiche

[Serela]

Kilga tried to eat a bullet for Bard.

When did this happen? Not saying it didn't but it sounds odd and I don't recall it, and there's a whole ton of D2 so if you already knew where this happened, it would be nice to see.

Anyway, your entire case on Bard is just "well he has the power to kill someone at night at least one time, in addition to the scum NK." (Because I highly doubt UK would use her vig N1 and completely lose her investigation abilities, when she could instead, say, investigate N1 and vig N2, so yes, in addition to the scum nightkill instead of being it. And Affinity makes more sense then UK as a scum NK.).

Anyway, my point is, that... doesn't really seem like a case! Having the power to kill someone doesn't really make someone scummy at all, unless it's in a way that they could likely be the scum doing the nightkill, which is not the case at the moment.

Not only that, but if Bard is able (and willing, with his role specifics) to NK again tonight, then he is someone we want to keep ALIVE today so that we can have him knock another person off Edible's list. Then if there is more then one NK and neither of them are on Edible's list, Bardiche is quite probably not town.

tl;dr we want to lynch Huhwhat or Kilga today.

[PX]

Basically.

Lynch one of them, Bard kills the other at night.

[Prody]

Basically.

Lynch one of them, Bard kills the other at night.

Is this necessary? If we successfully lynch scum there is a low chance the other(s) would be scum as well.

[PX]

I seriously doubt that Bard is a scum vig btw. Nobody has counterclaimed killing UK, and common sense says that UK would scout first, then kill when you're guaranteed to hit scum. And since Schezo, who was flipped AS a scum vig, I find two scum vigs to be ridiculous, otherwise the mod deserves to die.

[Serela]

Is this necessary? If we successfully lynch scum there is a low chance the other(s) would be scum as well.

Well yeah, if we lynch scum, it goes without saying Bard would not need to kill by the list.

[PX]

If we lynch scum, I'm all for him targeting a policy lynch.

[Dormio Ergo Sum]

Do you have anything else to say, Colt?
Anything at all?

Warning - Beep beep, I'm a jeep.
Personally, I don't care what Bardiche's role is unless he has a way to prove it.
Otherwise I'm going to keep him full of drugs, rendering incapable of using stuff.

Warning - Beep beep, I'm a jeep.
Warning - Beep beep, I'm a(ry
Or we can believe he's a town nightvig and I can drug someone else.

[Serela]

...uh yeah, please don't disable Bard's powers right now. Even if he ISN'T town, if he kills tonight and not by Edible's list (unless we lynch scum ofc) then he's pretty much claimed not-town in the process. That's what happens when you claim a vig power, you generally end up needing to obey what everyone else says if you like being alive.

I wish Bard could appear and clear up whether he's killing tonight or not though, so we don't end up spending all day discussing it and then he can't/won't anyway.

[Bardiche]

No, I meant why was Bard suggesting that there might be two scum not on the list? Why did Bard think that there was a possibility of 4 scum in addition to a traitor role, and decide to bring that possibility up to question why I thought there was only one scum not on the list?

See, I don't think Dormio and PX can both be scum at the same time. He thought both could be scum. I think that assertion is strange.

More that that list was on the back of my mind rather than the front. I never questioned why you thought there was only one scum not on the list; I asked why you declared x was not scummy because y was scummy, as the scumminess of x should have no bearing on the scumminess of y.

Your case assumes I knew I would be scum before the game began, and that I would definitely kill UK on N1 as scum with all abandon for victory conditions and whatnot. Your case on me is "Bard is too scummy to be scum", and my scummy actions are in not precisely saying I am a vigilant and that I declared before the game had begun that if UK died N1, it'd be me.

I cannot declare a kill tonight, so if a second person drops beside the NK it is not through my actions.

[Bardiche]

Also, capt h's attack on me is bizarre, and coupled with the weirdness I outlined earlier, I'd pursue him tomorrow (unless it's Kilga who needs pursuing).

scumKilga "taking a bullet" for me only makes sense if Kilga is scum and I am not - because if Kilga is scum and I am scum, Kilga taking a bullet for me would still cause scrutiny on me and a lynch the following day. Whereas Kilga taking a bullet for townBard would result in a mislynch the next day.

townKilga taking the kill in my stead is a matter that is indeed weird, but there are a number of explanations I can find. I'll revisit that later, once we get the flip.

[capt. h]

@ NeoSerela - This is where Kilga tries to get between Shadoweh and Bard:

Anyway, for actual opinions on that tiny list (why do I get the feeling that it was always going to be me and that the list was just for show?), if Bard is seriously also a vig then I vote you shoot me, because I'm pretty much dead set on Schezo/huh what being the scum team from Edible's list (again, assuming Edible is not lying scum himself).

Obviously I'd prefer Schezo (or huh what but that isn't happening) get shot instead of me but, well, I'd prefer I get shot over Bard.

@ PX:

I seriously doubt that Bard is a scum vig btw. Nobody has counterclaimed killing UK, and common sense says that UK would scout first, then kill when you're guaranteed to hit scum. And since Schezo, who was flipped AS a scum vig, I find two scum vigs to be ridiculous, otherwise the mod deserves to die.

Schezo, Zombie Hitman, capable of sending in an unblockable kill, has been dayvigged!

You know, I thought the hitman unblockable kill meant that if Schezo did the nightkill, then it couldn't be blocked, rather than Schezo having an extra kill one night.

I guess that could be a mafia vig. What does everyone else think?

_______________________________

Anyway, my problem with Kilga is that I have trouble believing scum would be suicidal. My problem with Huh What is Hourai's interactions with him. But since it doesn't look like Bard at the moment, I suppose stressed out scum would advise killing themselves.

##Unvote

##Vote Kilgamayan

[capt. h]

Also, capt h's attack on me is bizarre, and coupled with the weirdness I outlined earlier, I'd pursue him tomorrow (unless it's Kilga who needs pursuing).

I would prefer you pursue me on day 2 rather than only start on day 3. Once we decide on today's lynch, I would like as much time as you need to answer all your questions. And it would be bad if we found Edible's second scum and hadn't even started considering options outside his list.

My weirdness about you is due to Hourai's weirdness about Huh What and Kilga's all-around suicidal weirdness about you. I have trouble believing the other two options could be scum given the circumstances, so I'm targetting you by process of elimination. I've already covered how I think we can find scum by discussing the people Hourai avoided talking about: Hourai didn't mention you or Kilga. So I think it's either you or Kilga that's scum, and with Kilga willing to take a hit for you, I doubt it's him.

[Kilgamayan]

Huh What did have a meaningful discussion about Schezo, but it was the only one I could find.

Which was why I specified that I only went through what happened before Edible's claim. After Edible's claim things get a lot messier because they HAD to focus on Schezo, since he was on the list along with them. Once a handful of people have been marked for deletion, bussing becomes a lot more likely because there's basically nothing to lose by trying it.

I must admit confusion as to why your vote is on me, largely because your last sentence in your last post says "So I think it's either you or Kilga that's scum, and with Kilga willing to take a hit for you, I doubt it's him." If you doubt I'm scum, why am I your vote?

[capt. h]

Which was why I specified that I only went through what happened before Edible's claim. After Edible's claim things get a lot messier because they HAD to focus on Schezo, since he was on the list along with them. Once a handful of people have been marked for deletion, bussing becomes a lot more likely because there's basically nothing to lose by trying it.

I must admit confusion as to why your vote is on me, largely because your last sentence in your last post says "So I think it's either you or Kilga that's scum, and with Kilga willing to take a hit for you, I doubt it's him." If you doubt I'm scum, why am I your vote?

In spite of needing to have meaningful discussions about Schezo after Edible's bargain, Huh what was the only one to actually have said discussions. Bard and you mention Schezo, but even after being placed on Edible's list the mentions of him you two make that I considered usable are a little lacking.

I don't think it's you, but PX had a point about Bard. It seems weird that he would be scum. There is the possibility that Schezo used his vig on Affinity (if he had one) and bard used a normal kill on UK, which would explain the two kills, but it seems unlikely that Bard could be scum. I wish Bard said he had vig tonight, because then I could let him kill either you or Huh What depending on the flip.

Basically, I have to pick between three options I don't like. Hourai's info tells me not Huh What and Huh What has posted a lot of material on scum before scum flips relative to you and Bard, logic tells me to overlook Bard for the reasons everyone has mentioned about how no one else claimed vigs last night, and all that's left is you asking us to kill you before Bard.

It all feels wrong. Everything about the three of you is just off. But one of you is scum.

[GMOFucker: Makin' GMOs To Fuck 'Em]

Urgh, I honestly haven't been able to find anything notable regarding Schezo from either Kilga or Bard on D1 from re-reads, considering that Schezo was lurky and generally inconsistant as hell. Still, I'm inclined to believe that Bard is town due to how his Hourai vote played out.

As for Kilga, it should be noted that during most of the Conqueror shenanigans, he clinged onto Serela the entire time without even really contemplating the Hourai wagon once. Even when he came back near the end of the day, he let the Serela wagon pass without even giving his opinions on Hourai under the notion that Conqueror was about to filibust anyway. Was there really no time to at least give some sort of comment on the Hourai train? Given that Hourai flipped scum immediately after and how I have believed Serela to be town for some time and still strongly continue to do so, this does not set well with me and I am surprised I did not notice it on an earlier readthrough.

Beyond that, a general lack of attention paid to Hourai and Schezo on D1 does not do Kilga any favors. It's kind of like he forgot Schezo even existed until D2, and even then Kilga's Schezo case was relegated to the backburner. Instead, most of Kilga's D1 was spent on Conqueror (who was jumped on around the first signs of people being willing to start a wagon on him) and Shadoweh, both of which have flipped town at this point. While a townie chasing other townies on D1 is not completely unreasonable, the complete ignorance towards all the players who have flipped scum at this point does not look good.

##Vote Kilgamayan

Regarding my late D1 actions: I wanted PX flipped instead of Hourai because I figured he would become the most obvious target for a D2 lynch provided Conqueror was telling the truth and therefore town (it should be noted that following a Conqueror flip + townie Serela flip, which I was expecting at the time due to a lack of town interest in flipping Hourai, I would have likely pursued PX as my primary target on D2 over Hourai. Colt was not a viable target to me at that point seeing as he had not yet expressed his desire to jump onto Conqueror.) The mention of me thinking things through was because PX had switched from my secondary choice to my primary choice between posts. Naturally, when the day essentially turned into Hourai vs Serela, I returned to Hourai, seeing as he was still fairly high on my scum list. I can understand why this would be interpreted as trying to avoid getting Hourai flipped, but seeing as PX was my second pick for scum at the time, I don't think the choice was exactly unprecedented.

In other news, I'm somewhat more suspicious of PX, given how Kilga handeled PX vs Serela during late D1 and also how scum!Schezo continued to tunnel on Shadoweh during early D2 as well. Might actually want to see him lynched more than Colt now, barring the chance that Bardiche is the scum here and sacrificed Hourai for major cred. I'm starting to think that the Shadoweh wagon in general had ill intentions following Edible's revelation, considering how Schezo stayed onto it and how Kilga jumped onto her when it looked like it was possible to end her without worrying about a vig kill.

[Kilgamayan]

I have no particular defense for my D1 vote placement, but I will at least address this:

Was there really no time to at least give some sort of comment on the Hourai train?

In my case? Yes. You'll notice the post from Suwako at 5:27 PM Eastern, my first post after the handful of Hourai votes. That was from my second job, my tutoring job, where my shift started at 5:30. I will be glad to link you to my center's page on the company website so you can see I do indeed work there in addition to forwarding you the e-mail with the schedule for this past week if you don't believe me.

By the time I got home and had a chance to sit down and think about the game, I knew time was running out (which you should be able to sympathize with given how you flipped out over the impending deadline much earlier than that) and I had enough time to skim through the topic and see people accusing each other of lying about their roles. The resolution to all those accusations was unclear to me so I asked if anyone could definitively back up their liar accusation on anyone else because if someone actually got caught lying about there wouldn't be a choice; the liar would need to be voted off the island. In the process of writing up my "hey guyz wats going on" post I got cut off by Shadoweh telling Conqueror to filibust and at that point it didn't matter what I thought about anything.

Regarding my late D1 actions: I wanted PX flipped instead of Hourai because I figured he would become the most obvious target for a D2 lynch provided Conqueror was telling the truth and therefore town (it should be noted that following a Conqueror flip + townie Serela flip, which I was expecting at the time due to a lack of town interest in flipping Hourai, I would have likely pursued PX as my primary target on D2 over Hourai. Colt was not a viable target to me at that point seeing as he had not yet expressed his desire to jump onto Conqueror.) The mention of me thinking things through was because PX had switched from my secondary choice to my primary choice between posts. Naturally, when the day essentially turned into Hourai vs Serela, I returned to Hourai, seeing as he was still fairly high on my scum list. I can understand why this would be interpreted as trying to avoid getting Hourai flipped, but seeing as PX was my second pick for scum at the time, I don't think the choice was exactly unprecedented.

There are two things I find problematic with this.

- That is an awfully presumptive attitude about how Day 2 was going to play out. How often does Day 2 play out the way we expect it to on Day 1 before we even get to see any flips? Less often than not, I imagine. And look at that, it was a bad assumption to make, because PX has not at all been the focus of today. "Well of course he wasn't the focus he wasn't on the bucket list" which is exactly the point of why we don't make these assumptions because you don't know what's going to happen in the interim. (Never mind that he wasn't getting a whole lot of attention outside of Dormio before the bucket list claim anyway because so much of it focused on Shadoweh instead.) You don't make D1 voting decisions based on who you think will garner the most attention D2, you make D1 voting decisions based on who you read as the scummiest person on D1.

- What is this "lack of town interest in flipping Hourai" to which you refer? At the time you made that post, Hourai had more non-Conqueror votes than anyone else.

Let me repeat that, just so it's clear.

Hourai had more non-Conqueror votes than anyone else.

Your claim that town lacked interest in flipping him is bull, because if there really was no interest then he wouldn't have been the filibust vote leader at any point in time. Never mind that basically no one had any good things to say about the guy.

[Serp]

VOTECOUNT  -  This Day Has 96 Hours Edition

Kilgamayan (2):  capt. h, huh what
huh what (2):  Bardiche, Kilgamayan
Bardiche (1):  Dormio, capt. h
PX (1):  Colt, Dormio, capt. h
Dormio (0):  capt. h
Colt (0):  huh what

Not Voting:  Edible, NeoSerela, PX, Zakeri

With 10 votes in play, 6 are required to lynch.  24 hours remain in the day.

[GMOFucker: Makin' GMOs To Fuck 'Em]

I was thinking things over and then writing that post before Pesco had posted (I guess I can't prove this since I never actually mentioned that he ninja'd me, but the "Hi Pesco" and the shortness of my response to him should at least be somewhat indicative that it was written on the spot and that I did not expect his post), so at the time, Hourai only had the votes of myself and capt. h. Considering how the latter had been somewhat fickle regarding his votes during D1 and his Hourai vote was rather weak in the first place, I was expecting him to switch off. Nobody else had really shown major interest in Hourai beyond a small namedrop, but Conqueror and Shadoweh had both claimed that they wished to see Serela flipped, and IIRC you and Affinity had said negative things about Serela at that point.

[Kilgamayan]

I had assumed that you had been writing since before Pesco posted because 6 minutes would have been a short amount of time to get that post off after his. Even with the shortness of the response, however, I still do not understand why you would not at least acknowledge his Hourai vote, which would have been very hard to miss given that it was bolded and separated from everything else (not to mention the last part of the post IIRC).

[capt. h]

@mod: It's been 48 hours, has Zak been pecked to death by zombie chokobos?

[Serp]

I've decided that his modkill will take place at the end of the day, if he doesn't show up with a really good explanation.

[PX]

Just a warning that I Might not make it back for the deadline.

@mod: Are scum forced to Nightkill?

[capt. h]

Just a warning that I Might not make it back for the deadline.

@mod: Are scum forced to Nightkill?

Then you should probably vote now. We need 6 to lynch until Zak is modkilled, and we have two scum. It could be tough to get the numbers needed for a lynch if both you and Zak abstain.

[Serp]

@mod: Are scum forced to Nightkill?

I can't answer that question.

[Edible]

Grumble grumble weekends grumble.  I won't be able to type up a more formative response until early-ish tomorrow afternoon, but I'd still prefer a Kilga lynch given previous discussions, or a Bard lynch because Shadoweh flipped town and it's incredibly hard to believe that there are three town vig roles.  It is extremely likely he is, if not scum, then at least third-party.  Huh what is not much of a priority for me ATM.

##vote Kilgamayan

[Kilgamayan]

:|

So you have nothing to say in regards to the cases put forth on huh what?