Iku Quest - A Z-Machine Adventure

[DracoOmega]

I'll just say I'm unequivocally opposed to aiding or abetting her in any way, no matter the scale of what she's planning (unless it is totally inconsequential, which seems entirely unlikely). Call me a stick in the mud if you will, but there it is.

[Kilgamayan]

We could wait for Maus before we officially take things to the next level, I guess. He has a knack for thinking of things no one else does.

[Hello Purvis]

> "Can I get a hint? If it sounds fun, I could maybe join you!"
> We're going to need to start considering damage control. Can we covertly inform the Dragon or someone else high-up who is likely to be tolerant? We don't mind getting into trouble, as long as it's Community-Service sort of trouble, not Dishonorable-Discharge trouble. And we'll be getting into conflict, anyway, so might as well let it be one we can expect.

>"...You wouldn't join me," she says, frowning. "You're Iku! And you were just trying to stop me and stuff..."
>You might be able to slip away, or possibly get someone to deliver a message, but it might be a problem. And you do care about getting into trouble, as you are a representative of The Dragon. But maybe you could quietly get a waiver for certain things? But even then, official trouble is only part of it. You are supposed to be an enlightened being...

>_

[Fightest]

>"...You wouldn't join me," she says, frowning. "You're Iku! And you were just trying to stop me and stuff..."
>You might be able to slip away, or possibly get someone to deliver a message, but it might be a problem. And you do care about getting into trouble, as you are a representative of The Dragon. But maybe you could quietly get a waiver for certain things? But even then, official trouble is only part of it. You are supposed to be an enlightened being...

>_

> "If you can't beat them, and all that, you know? Plus, I'm certain we can have some fun together." Wink at her and smile.
> Indeed, if we can inform some folks in charge that Trouble is about to be Caused, we should be able to covertly control any of Tenshi's destructive urges with her none the wiser. As for being an enlightened being - sure, we may have ascended to the highest reaches of Nirvana, but it doesn't mean we have to be solemn about it.

[Hello Purvis]

> "If you can't beat them, and all that, you know? Plus, I'm certain we can have some fun together." Wink at her and smile.
> Indeed, if we can inform some folks in charge that Trouble is about to be Caused, we should be able to covertly control any of Tenshi's destructive urges with her none the wiser. As for being an enlightened being - sure, we may have ascended to the highest reaches of Nirvana, but it doesn't mean we have to be solemn about it.

>"Okay, now you're definitely up to something," she frowns at you. "Are you Nue?"
>You've not hit the highest reaches. One of the major points of Bhava-Agra is for one to resist the enticements and such. Not that everyone does, at least not initially. But you are supposed to set an example by virtue of your position, which must be kept in mind. There is also the issue that Tenshi is most certainly not supposed to have that thing.

>_

[Doll.S CUBE]

> Do we know a Nue?

>If so: "I am not her, eldest daughter, I am just trying to make sure you do not cause to much damage in this endeavor of yours and if I must be your accomplice, then I shall be so" Wait for another voices opinion though as I'm not sure about my choice of words. 

[Fightest]

> Do we know a Nue?

>If so: "I am not her, eldest daughter, I am just trying to make sure you do not cause to much damage in this endeavor of yours and if I must be your accomplice, then I shall be so" Wait for another voices opinion though as I'm not sure about my choice of words.

> Shh! Ixnay on the anplay! We're lying here!

>You've not hit the highest reaches. One of the major points of Bhava-Agra is for one to resist the enticements and such. Not that everyone does, at least not initially. But you are supposed to set an example by virtue of your position, which must be kept in mind. There is also the issue that Tenshi is most certainly not supposed to have that thing.

>_

> We are setting an example by assuming responsibility in the face of complicated circumstances. This, of course, only works if everyone else knows this as well. And, well, if Tenshi really wants that sword, she's going to get it. The objective is to make her want not to have it.

[DracoOmega]

Do you seriously think that making Tenshi not want to have the sword is realistic?
Moreover, why do you assume that we have no chance of stopping her, if she chooses to keep it?

[Hello Purvis]

> Do we know a Nue?

>You've heard of her. She is a shapeshifter, you think. And a troublemaker.

> Shh! Ixnay on the anplay! We're lying here!
> We are setting an example by assuming responsibility in the face of complicated circumstances. This, of course, only works if everyone else knows this as well. And, well, if Tenshi really wants that sword, she's going to get it. The objective is to make her want not to have it.

>Lying is rather unbecoming of the Messenger of the Dragon Palace.
>You don't know about making her not want it, but she certainly is showing some open suspicion on her face.

>_

[MysTeariousYukari]

> "Well Tenshi, I thought you'd be up to no good when you were going for the Sword, but I'm having second thoughts."
> Laid back pose.
> "Think about it this way Tenshi... why did you take the Sword the first time? You were bored of the same everyday thing, you wanted something different for once. Think about long I've done the same thing, son't you think I might get bored eventually?"
> Give her a smile.

Some of us are willing to side with her, some not. I'm trying to get her to be more trusting of Iku, get her to think a bit better about us, even if only a little bit.

[Kilgamayan]

I'd say it's actually very realistic. Fightest's approach has all been fairly basic child behavioral psychology so far, and there are various ways it can be furthered in order to get her attention away from that sword.

I can say for certain that, at the very least, resisting her is going to make her want it more. Forbidden fruit and all that. Going along with her (again depending on what she wants to do), however, has several ways it can end up making her want it less:

- Given the number of times she's harped on how the higher authorities hate her, there's a sizable chance she's rebelling for the sake of rebelling instead of any real reason. Going along with her will completely defeat that purpose and could make the sword lose all of its immediate value.
- If she does tell us what her plan is, then we may be able to show her - not tell her, show her - why whatever she has planned is a dumb idea, most likely by extending her train of thought to its logical conclusion and getting her to realize all the negative repercussions of what she's about to do.
- If both of those fall through, then there's still a good chance we'll do whatever she wants to do, but she'll get tired of it and give it up after a time because boring ol' Iku finds it interesting and that kinda dampens the fun.

> Recall any intimate information we may know about Tenshi. Something only Bhava-Agra residents would know.

Fake Edit: I admit I balk at the direction the proposed conversational line takes, as it suggests we're up for anything. I'd rather find out what it is first before making that commitment.

[Hello Purvis]

> "Well Tenshi, I thought you'd be up to no good when you were going for the Sword, but I'm having second thoughts."
> Laid back pose.
> "Think about it this way Tenshi... why did you take the Sword the first time? You were bored of the same everyday thing, you wanted something different for once. Think about long I've done the same thing, son't you think I might get bored eventually?"
> Give her a smile.

>She frowns. "You're acting really really weird...are you possessed or something?"

> Recall any intimate information we may know about Tenshi. Something only Bhava-Agra residents would know.

>You don't know many of Tenshi's secrets. Or rather, you're not sure if she has many. She tends to be pretty vocal about...well...everything. Although you're reasonably sure she doesn't tell people in Gensokyo too much about Bhava-Agra, save for generalized grumblings.

>_

[DracoOmega]

In general, I think you're giving Tenshi too much credit here. It's possible I'm wrong.

I agree she may be rebelling just for the sake of doing it. But she's rebelling less against us, directly, than against other authorities, either above or outside of us. Us going along with it (even if we can convince her it's not an elaborate deception) doesn't in any way take that away from her. If she was willing to have us along for the ride, I think that would make it even sweeter for her.

I think convincing her that what she's planning is dumb will be extremely hard. And how do you intend to show her, anyway? Without letting her actually do it, and stand by as an accessory to it?

Plus, I tend to think she would like to have the sword regardless, since she views it as hers.

[Doll.S CUBE]

We should really tone the OOCness down a bit,  otherwise she'll know it's a lie.

[Kilgamayan]

I think convincing her that what she's planning is dumb will be extremely hard.

I disagree. And we won't know until we try, anyway.

And how do you intend to show her, anyway? Without letting her actually do it, and stand by as an accessory to it?

I gave you an example of how it would be done. I don't know what else you want.

I guess I'll put this out there myself, since you've already done so. I'm pretty prepared to object to any plan that's contingent on "well, if we can't punch her in the ethics until she submits, we can just punch her in the face until she submits instead". This approach, quite frankly, sucks. We did it with Yorihime, we did it with Kanako and Suwako, and we would have done it with Koishi if she wasn't so good at running away. Yorihime we got away with it because she clearly wasn't all into it herself, and taking that approach to the other three meant we spent one-third of Maribel Quest cleaning up the mess Utsuho Quest left. I'm bloody tired of using it. We need something that works better.

[DracoOmega]

Frankly, I have to say that, even after all that followed, I still don't think that Utsuho did anything wrong with opposing Kanako and Suwako like she did. Sure, it's nice to mend bridges, but I still stand behind her actions.

For that matter, we talked ourselves blue in the face before that fight. We didn't 'punch them into the face until they submit' until they started punching us in the face. At that point, are we supposed to just sit there and take it?

Moreover, Tenshi is, by nature, far less reasonable than many of these other people. She'll do crap to annoy people simply because it annoys people. If anyone deserves to be punched in the face a few times... But that aside, what would you plan on doing if you can't convince her in some fashion?

[Kilgamayan]

Of course that position would be defended, as it ended up being right. The kicker is that it was right for the wrong reasons. There were right reasons to want to change things back (surge of Keter-class objects, surge of soul flowers), but we completely missed them because we were so obsessed with our wrong reasons. And really, for all that we spouted about how "you didn't ask consent!", we didn't ask consent to change things back from people that very well would have been happier the way things were, like Reimu and Yukari, so we were hypocrites on top of everything else. I raise this question: if we're right for the wrong reasons, does that really count? My math background submits that the answer is no.

We approached the conversation with the goddesses the wrong way. It wasn't "let's talk this out", it was "we're right, you're wrong, this is why, fuck you for daring to think otherwise". This is what I meant by "punch her in the ethics"; we go into confrontation conversations with the mindset that we couldn't possibly be wrong and they couldn't possibly be right and we let our speech reflect that. Notice how drastically Suwako's tack changed when we started to consider that there may have been more than just our side to the issue? That was a Good Thing. Ultimately it probably wouldn't have helped even if we kept going in that direction, but that's our fault for being so blinded to the real issues pre-fight, so.

If Tenshi has something nasty planned and refuses to back down, then I would suggest getting in her way and forcing her to be the aggressor, just as I had planned for us to do to Renko should she have refused to listen to us. Post-conflict forgiveness means heaps more coming from the defendant than it does coming from the instigator. It is possible (hell, it is likely) that Tenshi will get mad at our interference, given her "she would have gotten in my way anyway" line about the knocked-out guard, but if she, not us, initiates the conflict, she won't be able to deny that she wouldn't have gotten her ass kicked if she had behaved properly.

[Kilgamayan]

> "You really think someone like me could get possessed? Even if it were something I couldn't stave off, the Dragon wouldn't have any of that."
> "If you really don't think I'm me, though..."
> Bust a move like only we can. Be sure to keep an eye on Tenshi to make sure she doesn't sneak away while we're dancing, though.

[Fightest]

>Lying is rather unbecoming of the Messenger of the Dragon Palace.
>You don't know about making her not want it, but she certainly is showing some open suspicion on her face.

>_

> Only if someone else finds out. I'm certain we're well-aware that absolute truth is a terrible policy, and are entirely able to enhance the truth every once in a while.
> Re: making her not want it - that's a long-term goal. Isn't going to happen any time soon.

Frankly, I have to say that, even after all that followed, I still don't think that Utsuho did anything wrong with opposing Kanako and Suwako like she did. Sure, it's nice to mend bridges, but I still stand behind her actions.

For that matter, we talked ourselves blue in the face before that fight. We didn't 'punch them into the face until they submit' until they started punching us in the face. At that point, are we supposed to just sit there and take it?

It looks like I really shouldn't have abandoned Utsuho quest. Looks like you jokesters need a voice of reason! :V

Moreover, Tenshi is, by nature, far less reasonable than many of these other people. She'll do crap to annoy people simply because it annoys people. If anyone deserves to be punched in the face a few times...

And that's the sort of assumed knee-jerk that leads to all sorts of misunderstandings.

> Anyway.

>She frowns. "You're acting really really weird...are you possessed or something?"

>_

> She's off-balance now, apply counter-pressure:
> Sigh, look fatigued.
> "I'm tired, Tenshi. It's like the whole court is riding on my back, running me ragged, whilst they sit on their high heavens, contemplating their navels."
> Look away, mutter just loud enough for Tenshi to hear, "Wish I could take them down a peg or two."

[edit] Apply the above after finishing busting moves.

[DracoOmega]

I guess I feel that those initial reasons were still right. They just weren't reasons Kanako or Suwako cared about. Just because someone disagrees doesn't mean they're necessarily more likely to be correct than you are. Sure, there were additional reasons that we later found out about, but I don't feel the original reasons were wrong in any way.

Tenshi is already the aggressor and has already done something wrong, regardless of what else she plans to do. Ultimately, it doesn't even matter if she has anything else planned. She's not allowed to have that sword. End of story.

[Kilgamayan]

She's been the aggressor to others, but not to us. It's not our place to forgive her for her misdeeds to others, it's their place.

And really, our reasons were no different from theirs, save that we used Satori as our excuse while they used Sanae for theirs.

[DracoOmega]

It's not about forgiveness. She's our charge and she's done something in serious violation of what she's allowed to be doing. That makes it our responsibility.

And no, I think there's a fundamentally important difference. We never caused the original situation. That's just how Gensokyo was, and they changed it. We only set things back the way they'd always been. How were we using Satori as an excuse, anyway? She probably was better off in their world, so it's not analogous to Sanae's situation at all. Satori was willing to let things be set back at expense to herself. We weren't doing it as a benefit to her, like the goddesses had done for Sanae. It was a cost for something we thought was necessary.

[Pesco]

Damnit you people pulling plot threads from the other games. Hows anyone else supposed to jump in when y'alls metagaming.

[Kilgamayan]

I assumed we were still operating under the reasoning being "We're doing this for Satori". If we're operating under the reasoning being "this is how things were", then that's even weaker, because there we had no proof on-hand that things were worse, and plenty of evidence that things were better.

So why did we do it, if not for Satori? o_O

[Doll.S CUBE]

Wow, got to hand it to Purvis, he sure can get a moral discussion going on.

Also for Kanako and Suwako, Sanae is there reason for doing what they did, helping others was just a side effect of there action. This is why I kinda hate them, they weren't doing it to help others, they were just doing it to help Sanae. Of course we were doing it for ourselves and such and was just trying to scrounge up excuses so we wouldn't seem like the villain, so were kinda worse. If we had investigated the flowers we could have done much better with that but oh well.

Anyway, for this situation, try not to lie too much and try and see what it is Tenshi's trying to do, don't assume the worst, it could lead to further conflict.

[Fightest]

Damnit you people pulling plot threads from the other games. Hows anyone else supposed to jump in when y'alls metagaming.

Amen. Slow down on the metagaming, folks! This is a brand new bag we've got here.

[DracoOmega]

I assumed we were still operating under the reasoning being "We're doing this for Satori". If we're operating under the reasoning being "this is how things were", then that's even weaker, because there we had no proof on-hand that things were worse, and plenty of evidence that things were better.

So why did we do it, if not for Satori? o_O

I'm curious how you thought we were doing it for Satori? Of anyone we personally knew, she stood the most to lose.

During the debate with the goddesses, my main issue was that they had imposed their will on everyone else and taken away their entire old lives, just because they felt they could judge what was best for them. I wanted to be able to talk to more than just one or two people about it, or at least hear something from the rest of Gensokyo. I was willing to entertain the idea that their world was indeed better, but that they did not have the right to take away people's memories and a great part of the essence of who they were. That was the issue, in my mind, the whole time.

Amen. Slow down on the metagaming, folks! This is a brand new bag we've got here.

Although I agree that this is a side-point, I feel I should point out in case you're unaware that all of these quests are in continuity. The results of our actions in one quest have had major effects on multiple characters and even events in subsequent quests.

Anyway, for this situation, try not to lie too much and try and see what it is Tenshi's trying to do, don't assume the worst, it could lead to further conflict.

Finding out what she's up to would be good, yes. But, as I said before, it doesn't even really matter what else she's planning, because she's already made a major violation simply by having that sword right now. And Tenshi's well aware of that.

[Fightest]

Although I agree that this is a side-point, I feel I should point out in case you're unaware that all of these quests are in continuity. The results of our actions in one quest have had major effects on multiple characters and even events in subsequent quests.

These are different characters, in a different location, with different issues. Any metagame connections brought up now are factless speculation.

[DracoOmega]

These are different characters, in a different location, with different issues. Any metagame connections brought up now are factless speculation.

Hey, I didn't bring it up in the first place, and my opinion about our actions and this situation is based on things that have no direct connection to Okuu Quest whatsoever.

[Hello Purvis]

> "You really think someone like me could get possessed? Even if it were something I couldn't stave off, the Dragon wouldn't have any of that."
> "If you really don't think I'm me, though..."
> Bust a move like only we can. Be sure to keep an eye on Tenshi to make sure she doesn't sneak away while we're dancing, though.

>You try to prove your identity through a
>She frowns more deeply. "You're creeping me out, Iku..."

> Only if someone else finds out. I'm certain we're well-aware that absolute truth is a terrible policy, and are entirely able to enhance the truth every once in a while.
> Re: making her not want it - that's a long-term goal. Isn't going to happen any time soon.

> Anyway.

> She's off-balance now, apply counter-pressure:
> Sigh, look fatigued.
> "I'm tired, Tenshi. It's like the whole court is riding on my back, running me ragged, whilst they sit on their high heavens, contemplating their navels."
> Look away, mutter just loud enough for Tenshi to hear, "Wish I could take them down a peg or two."

>You would know. And likely so would The Dragon. But that's immaterial to you knowing.
>Longterm indeed.
>She is certainly off balance.
>You sigh and look away, then mutter.
>"Okay you're definitely being weird," Tenshi says, screwing up her eyebrows. "and I'm not falling for it."

>_