[ROGUE] Okay let's play some NetHack (and DCSS!) (and Angband!) (and Slash'em!)

~Beyond the Border~ > Genji's Battle Arena

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MatsuriSakuragi:
Holy shit this thread still exists? It's been almost 6 years since I started it. It's a modern-day relic :*

I haven't played NetHack in ages, but suddenly, it sounds like good times.

NekoNekoRex:
yeah this made me want to go back and try and beat Slashem again but unfortunately I forgot how to really play nethack, never learned how to play without using Vultures, realized that the Vultures dev is now selling the game (somehow) for money on steam, found out the Vultures dev removed the free version on his website but left the source code, and I don't know shit about code.

Also last time I tried to play Vultures Slashem I couldn't because it would constantly crash, but I don't know if he ever actually fucking fixed his fucking game because I don't want to fund a game that was (and should be by all rights) free and was buggy as shit anyway (how the fuck do you mess up fucking Nethack of all things?)

There's DCSS I guess but god damn fuck DCSS, every time I try to play I just feel miserable.

VIVIT:

--- Quote from: Purji Costavis on July 28, 2016, 03:30:17 AM ---It's been for ages since I played Nethack, though. What's the deal with the new version? All I know is that it has automatic arrow pickup.

--- End quote ---
It's got some nice new quality-of-life features, not the least of which is darkening all squares that you can't see -- this means that even in dark rooms you can tell which squares you have seen but cannot currently see. My favorite new thing is the fact that you can #name objects lying on the ground without picking them up. Spoiler: Elbereth is nerfed, though; and as far as I can tell pudding farming has been removed altogether.

--- Quote from: NekoNekoRex on July 28, 2016, 08:37:47 AM ---yeah this made me want to go back and try and beat Slashem again but unfortunately I forgot how to really play nethack, never learned how to play without using Vultures, realized that the Vultures dev is now selling the game (somehow) for money on steam, found out the Vultures dev removed the free version on his website but left the source code, and I don't know shit about code.

Also last time I tried to play Vultures Slashem I couldn't because it would constantly crash, but I don't know if he ever actually fucking fixed his fucking game because I don't want to fund a game that was (and should be by all rights) free and was buggy as shit anyway (how the fuck do you mess up fucking Nethack of all things?)
--- End quote ---
NetHack is actually a pretty convoluted spaghetti plate of a program beneath the hood. It's not as bad as Angband, but unlike Angband, it doesn't have raws to edit for easy surface modding.

Nethack isn't that hard to learn to play in ASCII though. Just remember that ; is farlook and you'll be alright. One YouTube Let's Player I enjoy began (and then promptly abandoned) a NetHack tutorial video series, but that first video is still pretty informative. I'd watch through to the end it even if you think you already know all it has to say about its specific topic (moving around). There's some valuable stuff I learned from it. Spoiler: He does, however, offer inaccurate information when he says that the numpad is the best way to move around when clearly, the vi-keys are the superior method.

--- Quote ---There's DCSS I guess but god damn fuck DCSS, every time I try to play I just feel miserable.
--- End quote ---
DCSS is what you get when you put a bunch of amateur devs with a whole lot of half-baked armchair game design ideas into one room together, give them the source code for a good game, and tell them to improve upon it. Then they try to turn it into an e-sport. That game has so much wasted potential. Switch VIVIT to verbose mode? (y/n)

nav':

--- Quote from: VIVIT on July 28, 2016, 02:07:40 PM ---Switch VIVIT to verbose mode? (y/n)

--- End quote ---
y

VIVIT:
DCSS has a number of problems, but most of them come back around to hypocrisy on the part of the dev team in one way or another. One of the simplest examples is how they parade the game as allowing the player to beat it with no prior knowledge of the game, in contrast to NetHack, where you can gain a really distinct advantage by memorizing spoiler post like Bible verses. But this just plain isn't true. DCSS is just as bad about this as NetHack is, perhaps worse. It just relies on a different kind of spoilers from NetHack.

NetHack is a highly strategic roguelike. It's less about the way individual fights play out (heck, it's barely even about the fights at all) and more about the goals you set and your plan for achieving them. The strategic depth in NetHack is incredible -- if you want something to happen, you can make it happen if you know what you're doing. When it comes to major decisions in NetHack, there really isn't any wrong answer. If you die in NetHack, it's probably because you made a short-term tactical error: maybe you forgot that minotaurs didn't respect Elbereth, or that a wand that makes the floor engravings vanish could be turn invisible as well as teleportation.

DCSS, on the other hand, is a high tactical roguelike. It's absolutely about the way individual fights play out. It's about resource management, preparation for battle, and taking advantage of what resources you have in the heat of battle. It's quite deep in this regard. This means that the game is more like a series of self-contained encounters with bands of monsters which you either survive or don't, and the preparation between those battles. The rest of the game literally plays itself on autopilot. If you die in DCSS, it's either because you made a short-term tactical error (probably something along the lines of forgetting that you can't run away from jackals, or that it's a BAD IDEA to engage those orcs with their priest in line-of-sight) OR because of some long-term strategic error, probably something like training the wrong combination of skills.

Now, in both games, the tactical errors are pretty easy to pick up on. The difference is that in NetHack, there's a lot of esoteric information to learn on the wiki that can improve your play -- there are some fantastic techniques that are completely inaccessible to you if you don't know the ins and outs of how a specific item works. DCSS looks at that and says, "That's bullshit; Players shouldn't have to read the wiki to figure out the best way to play," without realizing that it does the exact same thing with overall strategy! How is the player supposed to know what specific combinations of skills will lead the way to victory without spending hours reading up on strategy or with even more hours of trial and error?

Another problem with DCSS is that it assumes all players will take every advantage they can get when playing the game, even if it means doing extremely boring things. They removed Nemelex Xobeh's sacrifice mechanic because it meant that players could gain an advantage from playing "dungeon janitor" and sacrificing every piece of junk equipment they came across. According to NetHack's philosophy, such strategies are their own punishment. According to DCSS's philosophy, simply having that strategy possible in the game forces the player down that path.

Another example is the way DCSS discourages grinding. They have a food mechanic, yes, but they also have an OoD clock: if you stick around too long on a floor, stronger monsters will start to show up, forcing you onward. Some players, including myself, would use this mechanic to tempt fate -- wait around on the floor for the strong monsters to start spawning, and then face those monsters down to reap EXP rewards. This was a fun and exciting way to play the game.

Then the developers said they intended to crack down on this strategy by removing the EXP rewards for monsters spawned in this way.

I realized then just how short a leash DCSS kept is players on.

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