Author Topic: Why is Flandre in the basement?  (Read 19804 times)

Re: Serious Theories
« Reply #30 on: August 25, 2010, 06:33:04 AM »
The Hakurei Shrine actually serves a huge number of 'small gods', to borrow Terry Pratchett's term. From what we know there's around or at least eight million of them in Gensokyo not counting the Moriyas. I don't know who the original major deities in Gensokyo are but they certainly aren't being serviced by the Moriya-no-jinja or Byakuren's establishment, so they have to go to Reimu.   

We know Lord Enma is around somewhere because Eiki and Komachi are his employees, but I believe his worshiper base is outside the Border. If he has any stake inside Gensokyo it would have to be at the Hakurei Shrine as well.

A bit of a chilling thought, actually. Apart from being the erstwhile guardian of the Border Reimu may also be the life support for hordes of ailing divinities. What happens to all of them when she dies or quits?
« Last Edit: August 25, 2010, 06:35:08 AM by Recon 5 »

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Re: Serious Theories
« Reply #31 on: August 25, 2010, 06:40:05 AM »
I don't think Reimu was even trying to snuff out the Moriyas for faith during the events of MoF. It was more along the lines of "you've caused an incident, now it's time to put an end to it", just like most of the other times she's messed around with incident solving and shit. From what I can gather, Reimu wasn't even aware of another shrine until a certain point in MoF (at the very end of the Stage 4, to be exact).
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Re: Serious Theories
« Reply #32 on: August 25, 2010, 07:30:59 AM »
There are mental disorders such as schizoid personality disorder (look it up) that make you not WANT contact with other people most of the time. Flandre could very easily have one. As for the age thing, I, too noticed that they were 5 years apart, but didn't actually look like it. The most obvious solution is that Remilia waited until Flandre had grown to the same age Remilia was when she was turned, then turned her into a vampire herself. Canonically, though, Remilia can't turn other people into vampires. Why? Because she is a light eater and can't drink all their blood. Why? Presumably because she's a child and her smaller stomach can't hold as much. But children also have less blood... Therefore, I think Remilia's inability to create new vampires isn't absolute; she could turn a child (or a midget) into a vampire if she wanted to. And surely she wants to keep her dear little sister around.

Now, here's another theory of mine: Hong Meiling is also a former human. Specifically, she used to be a human martial artist who practiced chi manipulation, which is both her canonically listed power as well as a practice of certain eastern martial arts practitioners. Chi is life energy and cultivating it is supposed to increase health and even extend lifespan (as well as enable various supernatural martial arts feats). Therefore, I suspect that in Gensokyo, practicing chi manipulation/cultivation is another route to immortality as a youkai, much like becoming a magician-type youkai.

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Re: Serious Theories
« Reply #33 on: August 25, 2010, 07:52:56 AM »
Quote
Now, here's another theory of mine: Hong Meiling is also a former human. Specifically, she used to be a human martial artist who practiced chi manipulation, which is both her canonically listed power as well as a practice of certain eastern martial arts practitioners. Chi is life energy and cultivating it is supposed to increase health and even extend lifespan (as well as enable various supernatural martial arts feats). Therefore, I suspect that in Gensokyo, practicing chi manipulation/cultivation is another route to immortality as a youkai, much like becoming a magician-type youkai.

Willing to support this. I like it a lot better than the "hurr she's a dragon" thing.

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Re: Serious Theories
« Reply #34 on: August 25, 2010, 09:10:06 AM »
http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,4268.msg189501.html#msg189501
http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,4268.msg189698.html#msg189698

Yeah, screw you guys.


I don't like this thread. I would much rather have multiple threads for serious theories. The reason being, with stupid theories nobody has to continue posting. Most of the theories get ignored entirely, and so they can be kept all to one thread. For more serious theories, you need a fairly large discussion or else the theory goes nowhere. Having all serious theories go into one thread just begs for even more theories to be thrown in, which clogs up everything and nothing gets properly discussed at all.

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Re: Serious Theories
« Reply #35 on: August 25, 2010, 09:23:11 AM »
There are mental disorders such as schizoid personality disorder (look it up) that make you not WANT contact with other people most of the time. Flandre could very easily have one. As for the age thing, I, too noticed that they were 5 years apart, but didn't actually look like it. The most obvious solution is that Remilia waited until Flandre had grown to the same age Remilia was when she was turned, then turned her into a vampire herself. Canonically, though, Remilia can't turn other people into vampires. Why? Because she is a light eater and can't drink all their blood. Why? Presumably because she's a child and her smaller stomach can't hold as much. But children also have less blood... Therefore, I think Remilia's inability to create new vampires isn't absolute; she could turn a child (or a midget) into a vampire if she wanted to. And surely she wants to keep her dear little sister around

I don't think Flan doesn't want to see people. She wants to play with Marisa and everyone but she is feared that the little brat Remilia will be angry and punish her. I would  slap Remilia in face with all my might. Yes, she saved the life of Sakuya and Meiling but she is sooo egoistic and selfish.

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Serious theories
« Reply #36 on: August 25, 2010, 09:24:27 AM »
Gonna have to agree with Drake. Not to mention a good portion of this thread could've been taken care of in Misc Questions.

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Re: Serious Theories
« Reply #37 on: August 25, 2010, 09:26:10 AM »
I don't think Flan doesn't want to see people. She wants to play with Marisa and everyone but
I stopped reading here. What were you saying, again? Didn't quite catch that.

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Re: Serious Theories
« Reply #38 on: August 25, 2010, 09:34:43 AM »
Why is everyone in this topic so cross?
« Last Edit: August 25, 2010, 10:05:58 AM by Artemis »

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Re: Serious Theories
« Reply #39 on: August 25, 2010, 09:42:44 AM »
-There's a problem with trying to properly discuss things in what is trying to be a megathread.
-Debate includes a certain degree of crossness by default, some people feel they need to take it to the levels of CAPS LOCK and WITTY REMARKS LIKE THIS.
-The other half of that problem is that people take heated counter-arguments as personal attacks and label it as crossness.
-People have an annoying tendency to throw out suggestions in a serious thread based on their own come-upperies, which may thoroughly aggravate others.

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Re: Serious Theories
« Reply #40 on: August 25, 2010, 10:19:29 AM »
For me the problem with a "serious topics" megathread is that as we've seen on page 1 already, most of this gets taken care of by Miscellaneous questions (Why is Flandre in the basement? Who's the Hakurei god?). Second, as Drake mentioned, "serious" theories, when given their own topic, encourage discussion on -that- topic - discussion can get nurtured and fleshed out to a greater extent. But making a serious theories megathread encourages others to throw in their own theories, which sort of results in a jumbled mess, as this thread already is not two pages in. The difference between that and Misc Questions is, with Misc Questions, there's a specific thing being asked, which either has a canonical answer or "no one knows". Serious theories deserve greater fleshing out, and greater discussion. A megathread - which encourages others to toss in their own theories - sort of makes that pretty hard to do.

There's nothing stopping anyone from starting their own "serious theory" thread, on any topic, and personally, I would LOVE to see more of them. They are far and away my favorite threads in TARC. I just think a "serious theories" megathread gets in the way of its own purpose.

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Re: Serious Theories
« Reply #41 on: August 25, 2010, 11:59:01 AM »
@Ammy: This is why parts of the Misc Question Thread irked me before, because I felt like it was absorbing topics that could have stood on its own in the forum proper. Also that any and all topics phrased in the form of a question would get merged into the topic without actually examining whether it was a 'misc' question or not.

Two things i'd like to say real quick. I'm agreeing with Drake and Tengukami's points here. Megathreading 'Serious theories' in TARC would be like megathreading all the text-adventures in RPG. It's kinda defeating the purpose of why we have an entire forum for this sort of thing.

Also @Drake and re: Artemis's 'cross' comment: I enjoy seeing you express your opinion as I agree with it most of the time, but you need to be a little bit more polite about it Drake. :| Mainly looking at the "Yeah, screw you guys" and the "What did you say? Didn't catch that" tidbits here.
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Re: Serious Theories
« Reply #42 on: August 25, 2010, 12:47:23 PM »
@Ammy: This is why parts of the Misc Question Thread irked me before, because I felt like it was absorbing topics that could have stood on its own in the forum proper. Also that any and all topics phrased in the form of a question would get merged into the topic without actually examining whether it was a 'misc' question or not.

In retrospect I've long since seen this to be the case, and am in total agreement with you.

Two things i'd like to say real quick. I'm agreeing with Drake and Tengukami's points here. Megathreading 'Serious theories' in TARC would be like megathreading all the text-adventures in RPG. It's kinda defeating the purpose of why we have an entire forum for this sort of thing.

Thank you. This very succintly sums up what I've been trying to convey here from the start.

"Human history and growth are both linked closely to strife. Without conflict, humanity would have no impetus for growth. When humans are satisfied with their present condition, they may as well give up on life."

Re: Serious Theories
« Reply #43 on: August 25, 2010, 01:14:03 PM »
Alright, I understand what you're trying to say. If you'd like to break this into separate threads, then go on ahead. Not like you actually need my say-so to do it, but you know what I mean.

And with all due respect, Drake, I understand your point. You could be a bit less dickish about it, though.
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Re: Serious Theories
« Reply #44 on: August 25, 2010, 01:57:03 PM »
This thread should be renamed to "Why is Flandre in the basement" or something like that.

Anyways, I recommend going back and reading all the actual official works/dialogues that involves Flandre.  It shouldn't be too hard because there are only like, two and a half of them (her conversations in EoSD, her Bohemian Archive in Japanese Red Interview, and her EoSD profile.  Feel free to read her PMiSS article too, if you want to, but that one's largely just a reiteration of things you should already know combined with a bunch of "well duh" speculations by Akyu)


As far as I can tell from these things:

1.  Flandre is actually very mature sometimes, as far as I can tell.  She's incredibly coherent in the three dialogues she's involved in (EoSD's dialogue with Reimu, dialogue with Marisa, and BoJR) and if anything, she's sometimes possibly even more mature than Remilia if she isn't lying when she talks about her in BoJR (where Flandre comments that Remilia overexaggerates the control of her fate changing abilities).  Although on a grander scale, Remilia's probably more mature (since Flandre just sticks to the basement while Remilia will actively get involved in or at least consider the bigger picture if needed, as shown in IN, IaMP, and SWR)

She is described however as "emotionally unstable".  We never actually see the full extent of this in any of the three dialogues she's involved in, though (although depending on how you look at things, there might be some small subtexts and implications of it in her extra stage dialogues here and there).  Presumably it manifests in how she just tends to get carried away sometimes (like when she tries to eat a human, as mentioned in PMiSS.  That's the only example of  emotional instability I've ever seen regarding Flandre, really, but it is admittingly enough to show why Remilia would want to keep Flandre locked up)


2.  Flandre might have never left the basement in hundreds of years, but she's still exposed to "outer stimuli" because she has some amount of Omniscience (the ability to know everything).  We don't know the exact range and extent of this Omniscience, but she can clearly SEE beyond the basement.  She saw the entire events of EoSD from the moment the heroines entered the mansion (possibly sooner) despite being in the basement the whole time (her dialogues in EoSD).  It's possible her ability to view things extends into outerspace and beyond, since she was able to see the eye of the meteor.  In fact, the way her power works is that she can see the eye of anything as if it were in the palm of her hand.  This is probably where her omniscience comes from, although again, we don't know the full range of it.  This is lampshaded by PMiSS, where Akyu specificaly states that the range of her power is unknown.  It's possible that Flandre can see almost EVERYTHING in order to be able to see the eye of everything.  At the very least, we know that her ability to see the eye of things extends into orbit, and thus likely her omniscience has this amount of range as well.

...at any rate, she is clearly able to see outside stimuli.  For whatever reason, she chooses to not go out and interact with it most of the time (however, it is likely she's tried to go out before, considering that Patchouli already knows what to do whenever Flandre wants to go out.  See point 4.


3.  Combining the two above points, Flandre must be pretty naive.  She has lots of omniscience and saw what was going on in the Scarlet Devil Mansion, yet says she never saw humans before.  She doesn't even know she's eating humans according to her official profile.  Does she even know that Sakuya is human?  Well, it's possible that her omniscience works in such a way that it's hard for her to identify such details, especially if it primarily works mostly just by her seeing the eye of things, in which case, the version of EoSD's events that she saw must have seemed like some strange acid trip.  ....actually,  if the entire world and everything else by her gets viewed in some strange psychedelic "eye of things" way, this might explain her unstable personality and insanity.


4.  Flandre is "locked up" in the basement, but can easily get out whenever she wants to.  This is shown in the storyline of the Extra stage, where she easily just comes on out because she wants to go to the Hakurei Shrine too.  This is likely something that doesn't happen very often.  It's probably a decent enough assumption that this exception occurred because Reimu is special (storyline-wise, Reimu has this sort of effect on people.  Check out Koichi's official prologue for example)

It's not particularly disastrous whenever this happens.  At least, Remilia doesn't appear to be very worried in the Extra stage's backstory.  Poor Patchouli is a bit freaked out, though, but that's probably because she's the one tasked to keeping Flandre inside while Remilia and Sakuya are away.

Patchouli contains Flandre by making it rain, by the way.  For all of Flandre's power, she still has the typical vampire weaknesses and thus can't leave the mansion as long as Patchouli is making it rain.  It does not appear that Flandre is aware that Patchouli is the one doing this (in her Extra stage dialogue, Flandre is dissappointed that it's raining so she can't go out after all but doesn't mention Patchouli, so she's probably unaware that Patchouli is the one causing the rain)



5.  For what it's worth, in IN, Remilia is considering getting Flandre a tutor.  Course, maybe she's just joking since at 495 years, it's a bit late for THAT.

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Re: Serious Theories
« Reply #45 on: August 25, 2010, 02:23:43 PM »
This thread should be renamed to "Why is Flandre in the basement" or something like that.

k

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Re: Why is Flandre in the basement?
« Reply #46 on: August 25, 2010, 03:21:17 PM »
Well, Flandre and Remilia are kids.

Firstly: Kids are stubborn and conservative. I like thinking Remilia's in her early teens, so she has a little more maturity than Flandre, but not much. Also, have you seen the tantrums some kids throw? Especially if they are spoiled.. Flandre throwing a tantrum could spell doom for whoever is nearby.

Secondly: According to BunBunmaru, Flandre has apparently stayed willingly in the basement. She probably wants to go out, and is able to escape, yet we also know that she respects her older sister very much.

Thirdly: Kids have an ability to forget sadness quickly and wake up every day with the notion: "Hey, it's a new day, and I can start all over! Today will be great!", no matter how terrible yesterday was. Also, some kids have streaks of perfectly healthy sociopathy that dissapears with time.

If Remilia has a good relationship with her little sister(500 years is a lot of time, you guys), she should logically be able to keep her entertained, make her feel loved, and keep her position as the beloved older sister.

Furthermore, I like thinking that Flandre is an intelligent girl. So she won't escape with her powers, because she wants to show Remilia what a good girl she can be, alternatively she might be punished for using them. And she wants to be as much of a normal kid as is possible, too. So she stays in her role a a cute little sister, even if it imprisons her.

Why is she in the basement? Didn't you have the feeling when you were a child, "If I ignore it, I don't have to think about it and it will go away"?
« Last Edit: August 25, 2010, 03:23:56 PM by Sailor Wriggle »
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Re: Why is Flandre in the basement?
« Reply #47 on: August 25, 2010, 04:16:06 PM »
Tiamat's #4 remark hits nails on the head for speculation.

Well, Flandre and Remilia are kids.
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Re: Why is Flandre in the basement?
« Reply #48 on: August 25, 2010, 04:44:00 PM »
Tbh, the Flan thing in the basement is pretty much explained in her biography that both ZUN and Akyu has given her. So as to WHY she's in the basement should known already if you do a bit of research.

Re: Why is Flandre in the basement?
« Reply #49 on: August 25, 2010, 05:00:19 PM »
Negative.

If you're going by age, then they're far from kids. Going by their mental states, however, they pretty much are.
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Re: Why is Flandre in the basement?
« Reply #50 on: August 25, 2010, 05:25:15 PM »
Quote
Why is Flandre in the basement?

There was no room in the kitchen

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Re: Why is Flandre in the basement?
« Reply #51 on: August 25, 2010, 06:46:19 PM »
If you're going by age, then they're far from kids. Going by their mental states, however, they pretty much are.
However, 500 years of being a kid mentally isn't the same as normally growing up as a kid. I would assume that neither of them are purely cranky crybabies. Both have shown to be far more mature than their respective body ages, and that goes for pretty much every youkai out there. Just because they stopped aging physically doesn't mean they've stopped mentally.

If you're talking solely about Remi and Flan acting like children, please elaborate.

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Re: Why is Flandre in the basement?
« Reply #52 on: August 25, 2010, 06:48:49 PM »
However, 500 years of being a kid mentally isn't the same as normally growing up as a kid. I would assume that neither of them are purely cranky crybabies. Both have shown to be far more mature than their respective body ages, and that goes for pretty much every youkai out there. Just because they stopped aging physically doesn't mean they've stopped mentally.

If you're talking solely about Remi and Flan acting like children, please elaborate.

I do agree with this, however, we can not assume that vampire's do not learn or grow up mentally as quickly as humans.

Remember, ZUN says that youkai (youkai being anything non-human really) think a lot differently than humans. So that can obviously play a role on their mental state.

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Re: Serious Theories
« Reply #53 on: August 25, 2010, 06:56:19 PM »
2.  Flandre might have never left the basement in hundreds of years, but she's still exposed to "outer stimuli" because she has some amount of Omniscience (the ability to know everything).  We don't know the exact range and extent of this Omniscience, but she can clearly SEE beyond the basement.  She saw the entire events of EoSD from the moment the heroines entered the mansion (possibly sooner) despite being in the basement the whole time (her dialogues in EoSD).  It's possible her ability to view things extends into outerspace and beyond, since she was able to see the eye of the meteor.  In fact, the way her power works is that she can see the eye of anything as if it were in the palm of her hand.  This is probably where her omniscience comes from, although again, we don't know the full range of it.  This is lampshaded by PMiSS, where Akyu specificaly states that the range of her power is unknown.  It's possible that Flandre can see almost EVERYTHING in order to be able to see the eye of everything.  At the very least, we know that her ability to see the eye of things extends into orbit, and thus likely her omniscience has this amount of range as well.

...at any rate, she is clearly able to see outside stimuli.  For whatever reason, she chooses to not go out and interact with it most of the time (however, it is likely she's tried to go out before, considering that Patchouli already knows what to do whenever Flandre wants to go out.  See point 4.


3.  Combining the two above points, Flandre must be pretty naive.  She has lots of omniscience and saw what was going on in the Scarlet Devil Mansion, yet says she never saw humans before.  She doesn't even know she's eating humans according to her official profile.  Does she even know that Sakuya is human?  Well, it's possible that her omniscience works in such a way that it's hard for her to identify such details, especially if it primarily works mostly just by her seeing the eye of things, in which case, the version of EoSD's events that she saw must have seemed like some strange acid trip.  ....actually,  if the entire world and everything else by her gets viewed in some strange psychedelic "eye of things" way, this might explain her unstable personality and insanity.



Well, I think that her omnisense is just her power to see the eyes of the things, and maybe she recognized humans' eyes (This theory is only possible if human's eyes were different, but let's think that they are)
She doesn't know that she eats humans because Sakuya and co. (fairy maids) make the dishes look like normal food.
Her unstable personality might be because she is too over powered (?)

But, I don't know everything of what I said for sure, I was trying to help a little bit 'round here...

At least almost all of us agree that she respects her sister too much to try to escape...

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Re: Why is Flandre in the basement?
« Reply #54 on: August 25, 2010, 07:11:19 PM »
A bit off topic, but all this talk about the two (or, well, at least Flan?) eating humans is bugging me... are they already-dead (natural causes, youkai mauling, accidental deaths, etc.) humans or "special" (criminals and whatnot) living ones that are killed specifically for food?

Or is it just the blood?

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Re: Why is Flandre in the basement?
« Reply #55 on: August 25, 2010, 07:13:26 PM »
A bit off topic, but all this talk about the two (or, well, at least Flan?) eating humans is bugging me... are they already-dead (natural causes, youkai mauling, accidental deaths, etc.) humans or "special" (criminals and whatnot) living ones that are killed specifically for food?

Or is it just the blood?

Remilia never kills them. Flandre, on the other side, never actually attacks them. The humans are left alive. Or so I've read...

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Re: Why is Flandre in the basement?
« Reply #56 on: August 25, 2010, 07:43:33 PM »
I'm not sure if it's specifically stated on whether the humans they use are alive or dead. However, given the atmosphere of Touhou, I would assume they're fresh corpses rather than live humans. I'm guessing, the fairies and Sakuya would have to go about dismembering the corpse, once they haul it in, and then drain it of it's blood for later use of the mistress and her sister. Although my grimdark side wants to believe that if a live human does happen to present him/herself to the Scarlet Sisters then there's going to be a problem for him/her when lunchtime rolls around. I don't really like to blow out speculation, but this is all I know.

Need to brush up more on my canon, it seems...
« Last Edit: August 25, 2010, 07:46:16 PM by Tapeworm Erebus »
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Re: Why is Flandre in the basement?
« Reply #57 on: August 25, 2010, 07:55:00 PM »
touhou wiki:
She is a light eater. In other words, she can drink only a little blood at a time and must leave the rest behind, so the humans off of whom she feeds become a bit anemic, but usually stay alive

They are alive.

Re: Why is Flandre in the basement?
« Reply #58 on: August 25, 2010, 08:02:22 PM »
touhou wiki:
She is a light eater. In other words, she can drink only a little blood at a time and must leave the rest behind, so the humans off of whom she feeds become a bit anemic, but usually stay alive

They are alive.
Usually.

I'm not sure if it's specifically stated on whether the humans they use are alive or dead. However, given the atmosphere of Touhou, I would assume they're fresh corpses rather than live humans. I'm guessing, the fairies and Sakuya would have to go about dismembering the corpse, once they haul it in, and then drain it of it's blood for later use of the mistress and her sister. Although my grimdark side wants to believe that if a live human does happen to present him/herself to the Scarlet Sisters then there's going to be a problem for him/her when lunchtime rolls around. I don't really like to blow out speculation, but this is all I know.

Need to brush up more on my canon, it seems...
Going off of IN's extra stage dialogue, she only drinks the blood of those who fear her, so her victims are definitely alive.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2010, 08:06:48 PM by Esoterica »

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Re: Why is Flandre in the basement?
« Reply #59 on: August 25, 2010, 08:06:46 PM »
And the ones she feeds on become aenemic. Like Patchoulli.

"Human history and growth are both linked closely to strife. Without conflict, humanity would have no impetus for growth. When humans are satisfied with their present condition, they may as well give up on life."