Author Topic: The Possible Truth of Alice Margatroid? A crazy theory.  (Read 28486 times)

Gpop

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The Possible Truth of Alice Margatroid? A crazy theory.
« on: August 24, 2010, 03:24:45 AM »
Quoting from a fellow friend of mine.

Quote from:  Zhenlien
We all know her, and most of us love her. infact. But now that time has passed, and many people are thinking more of our new magician Byakuren, and our new Crow Tengu Hatate.

Does this mean Miss Margatroid has been forgotten?

No, but let's take a look back on her Lore, and by the time most people read and comment or discuss this topic.

But moving on, Alice Margatroid made her first appearance as, Alice, in Mystic Square, being the second boss to appear in the main story as a boss, and then appear as the Extra Boss. (The first being Rika)

Where Mima called her small fry, and being a mere third stage boss, Alice took the "Grimoire of Alice" and used it in the extra boss fight. Only to be defeated shortly after.
Now, what happened to her book after that? By the common knowledge rule of Touhou, I'm not allowed to spoil that, for it was told in the ending. But when we see Alice again, approximately a year after the last events of the PC-98 era, we see her all grown up, with the book, and out for revenge.

Then in Imperishable Night, she is shown with a love-hate relationship with Marisa, and from there on out, Alice has appeared in all three fighters, and as Marisa's support in TH11.

One concern some fans might notice: "How did she grow up so quickly?" "Is the book she using the same?" "What happened to everyone in the PC-98 Era, and why only Alice (And Yuka) made it into the windows series?"

Well, the answers are clear, simple, and probably implied. Alice is still out for vengeance. Out to fight Marisa and Reimu, to get back at them for her defeat in TH5.

Another person who did a WMG on Alice, claims that Shinki warped Alice into another dimension to get her away from danger. Taking her away from the harsh world of the PC-98 era, to the safe lands of the Windows Series, where the spellcard rule is in use. This way, Alice can live a more simple life, without worrying about death... as much. The guess also says that Alice was sent incredibly far back in time, to make up for the fact that she's all grown up, in what seems like one year.

As claimed in PMiSS, Youkais all age slower. This includes Magicians. Patchouli is about 100 years old, Byakuren around 1000, and Alice is unknown. Why is that? We saw her in PC-98, her age should be known. They didn't even give her the "About X years old" business they usually do for many other characters, like Cirno. (But then again, many other characters suffer from unknown ages)

Now how did Alice Margatroid age so quickly? Is the WMG explained above true? or is there another possibility.

This my Wild Guess.

Alice Margatroid is a Doll.

"Wait wut?" You might be thinking. Don't worry, I have many evidence to support my claim.

Like explained above, PC-98 and windows are about 1 (one) year away from each other. What happened, is that this doll, called Alice Margatroid, is a reflection of what Alice could have been if she grew up, but since she opened the Grimoire, that won't happen.
And Shinki's power is unknown, so the whole "Warping Alice to another Dimension" is possible, however unlikly, since her power has something to do with Sara, Luize, Yuki, Mai and Yumeko, since it was established, that everyone (And retconned out, excluding Alice) was created by Shinki. So unless she has an incredibly vague power like Yukari's Manipulation of Boundaries, it's safe to assume that Shinki's power is to give life.
That said, it would be unlikely that Shinki can warp Alice. The only way that this Larger, grown up Alice is possible, is that it's actually just a doll.

And as said in Alice's physical description in PMiSS


Looking like a doll would be very difficult to do without make up. And since this is Gensokyo, I would assume the only person who would have access to make up would be Marisa and her Mushrooms, or Yukari.

But what also breaks one of my arguments is Akyu's claim


Does this mean I'm wrong? Not at the slightest.

Since Akyu didn't necessarily specify which Alice she was talking about. Of course, I'm talking about, PC-98 Alice.

Thus making a Place where there are Two Alices. One, is the PC-98 Era Alice, the younger version, and the Alice Margatroid of the Window Series.
After Alice got the Grimoire of Alice, it can be assumed, that as soon as she used it, Alice became a Magician Youkai.

From here on out, the Windows Alice, will be referred to as "Margatroid" and PC-98 Alice, as her original name.

With this, when Margatroid encounters Reimu, with aggression, it can just be Alice, using the doll to threaten Reimu. It was established in Imperishable Night's Prologue and Strange and Bright Nature Deity #5, Margatroid's dolls can talk.


Which means, that Alice is also capable of doing this.

In PMiSS, it's also claimed that Margatroid has the ability to make dolls control other dolls. If Margatroid can do this, then Alice can as well. Where the Margatroid dolled is controlled to Alice's will, she can make it do as she pleases.

Now why doesn't Margatroid ever use her Grimoire of Alice? This is because it's not the real Grimoire. It's a flase replica to make Margatroid look like Alice. Where Alice has the real Grimoire, using it to control Margatroid.

With this, we answer the question about Miss Margatroid

Quick Aging [She didn't age, she is a constructed Doll]
How she knows Reimu but she doesn't know her [Reimu wouldn't know someone who is all grown up. I'm sure it's hard to recognize them. However, since Margatroid isn't exactly Alice, of course someone would be strange that someone you never met came up to you and wanted you dead.]
How Margatroid can move around if she is a doll [Thanks to many claims in PMiSS]
Why Margatroid never uses her book after PC-98 [She can't, because it isn't real. Alice has the real one.]


Miss Margatroid is just a doll being control by the great puppetmaster, Alice. Sitting back safly in Makai as she controls Margatroid out in the real world. Though it's claimed that Alice doesn't allow her own dolls to create dolls, one can assume that maybe she isn't in Makai, but maybe the basement or bedroom of her house in the forest of magic... or something.

That's my guess on Alice's life.

http://i39.tinypic.com/b3ln5e.jpg

Thank you for reading my explanation on this attractive doll.

Anyways, what are your thoughts on all this? My friend thought quite a bit on this, but I've never thought of Windows Alice as a doll herself, so it did get me quite interested.

Re: The Possible Truth of Alice Margatroid? A crazy theory.
« Reply #1 on: August 24, 2010, 03:33:36 AM »
I feel like I've read this before.

I don't personally believe it, but he presents a good argument.

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Re: The Possible Truth of Alice Margatroid? A crazy theory.
« Reply #2 on: August 24, 2010, 03:39:19 AM »
Um... I've seen Alice's dolls making "moans" but the whole thing about if they can talk is unkown. Talking implies having a mind or will, things that the dolls doesn't have. I think that Alice becoming a youkai made her grow up all of sudden, like, having a more youkai-like portrait? Anyway, she has a sealed grimoire, that's why she doesn't use it. Besides, if a FREAKING BOOK made me turn into a youkai without me knowing, I would hate it.
Alice didn't have dolls in the PC-98 version. Or so I think. The things that floated around her were other things, weren't they? Because, at first, she was just representing in some sort of way "alice in wonderland". Now, if we could only know WHY did ZUN picked Alice in Wonderland, maybe this whole thing would be different...
...your theory is possible, but we could make lots of theories and never reach to the truth *sigh*...
When I think about Alice in wonderland and the whole thing, the only thing that comes up in my mind is that Alice was first a human who was taken to Makai and returned to Gensokyo or something like that.
 

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Re: The Possible Truth of Alice Margatroid? A crazy theory.
« Reply #3 on: August 24, 2010, 03:48:33 AM »
A doll could talk if their master made them--i.e. moving their mouths and speaking for them.
She did have some little fairy things floating around her in her stage 3 battle. I always thought of them as dolls myself.

We don't know what kind of spells the grimoire holds. More than likely, it has the spells needed to become a magician, as well as to alter her appearance. So she didn't REALLY age--she just made it look like she did.
A reason she doesn't use the grimoire anymore is because she figures that even when she used it before, she lost, so there's really no point in bringing it out again.

That's just my view  :derp:

Marin The Magus

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Re: The Possible Truth of Alice Margatroid? A crazy theory.
« Reply #4 on: August 24, 2010, 03:51:39 AM »
A doll could talk if their master made them--i.e. moving their mouths and speaking for them.
She did have some little fairy things floating around her in her stage 3 battle. I always thought of them as dolls myself.

We don't know what kind of spells the grimoire holds. More than likely, it has the spells needed to become a magician, as well as to alter her appearance. So she didn't REALLY age--she just made it look like she did.
A reason she doesn't use the grimoire anymore is because she figures that even when she used it before, she lost, so there's really no point in bringing it out again.

That's just my view  :derp:


I've got a better argument (THIS IS CANON): She doesn't use it because if she used all her power, it would be the end for her, because (since here, it is what I think)  she is soooo afraid of knowing  if she is stronger or not that she just preffers not to know.

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Re: The Possible Truth of Alice Margatroid? A crazy theory.
« Reply #5 on: August 24, 2010, 04:13:16 AM »
I've got a better argument (THIS IS CANON): She doesn't use it because if she used all her power, it would be the end for her, because (since here, it is what I think)  she is soooo afraid of knowing  if she is stronger or not that she just preffers not to know.

The thing is, if we're thinking of PC-98Alice and Alice Margatroid as the same person, then she already HAS used her full power. And she lost anyways.

To some of Gensokyo's finest, sure, but...still.

Additionally it could be because she doesn't know how to pack her grimoire spells into spell cards :V

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Re: The Possible Truth of Alice Margatroid? A crazy theory.
« Reply #6 on: August 24, 2010, 04:18:52 AM »
It's quite well thought out, but in the end it's all speculation since there's no hard evidence either way.

Quote
Now, what happened to her book after that? By the common knowledge rule of Touhou, I'm not allowed to spoil that, for it was told in the ending.

This irks me greatly, as I've beaten MS Extra, but not being fluent in Japanese, I still have no idea what's going on there. In the absence of information in this regard, I prefer to believe that Alice's body was unable to handle the large quantities of magic from the grimoire, and her brain was fried; therefore, she no longer remembers the Shinki or PC98 days (at least not clearly), but is still technically the same person.

Given ZUN's general attitude towards canon, I'll probably continue believing this even if I'm flat out proven wrong.

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Re: The Possible Truth of Alice Margatroid? A crazy theory.
« Reply #7 on: August 24, 2010, 04:19:51 AM »
Well, that's a nice theory.
Did we have any idea how the appearance of Reimu and Marisa changed significantly from TH5 to TH6 yet?

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Re: The Possible Truth of Alice Margatroid? A crazy theory.
« Reply #8 on: August 24, 2010, 04:25:21 AM »
The thing is, if we're thinking of PC-98Alice and Alice Margatroid as the same person, then she already HAS used her full power. And she lost anyways.

To some of Gensokyo's finest, sure, but...still.


Y'know, that could be why she doesn't go all out anymore (assuming Alice and loli!Alice are the same person); Basil's fried brain/amnesia theory would also make sense. She doesn't go all out because, subconsciously, she knows that she's lost before and doesn't want to realize that she has a 'limit' to how strong she is.

Or something.

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Re: The Possible Truth of Alice Margatroid? A crazy theory.
« Reply #9 on: August 24, 2010, 04:26:15 AM »
So Alice is Sabrina from Pokemon?

Anyway, it's an interesting theory. I'd read a doujinshi on it.

Re: The Possible Truth of Alice Margatroid? A crazy theory.
« Reply #10 on: August 24, 2010, 04:58:50 AM »
Y'know, that could be why she doesn't go all out anymore (assuming Alice and loli!Alice are the same person); Basil's fried brain/amnesia theory would also make sense. She doesn't go all out because, subconsciously, she knows that she's lost before and doesn't want to realize that she has a 'limit' to how strong she is.

Or something.

I thought that was already established as canon. Maybe I'm wrong.
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Re: The Possible Truth of Alice Margatroid? A crazy theory.
« Reply #11 on: August 24, 2010, 05:02:08 AM »
I thought that was already established as canon. Maybe I'm wrong.
It's established that she doesn't use her full strength because she prefers to use strategy as opposed to Marisa's LOLMASTERSPARKGOBOOM fighting style, but it doesn't say anything about her reason being that she's afraid of losing when going all-out (that I'm aware of).

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Re: The Possible Truth of Alice Margatroid? A crazy theory.
« Reply #12 on: August 24, 2010, 05:04:50 AM »
I don't get why people think there's a massive age difference. the only thing that seems different to me is the graphics. she only aged the same ammount as everyone else.

Re: The Possible Truth of Alice Margatroid? A crazy theory.
« Reply #13 on: August 24, 2010, 05:06:24 AM »
Found it. From her PCB profile:

"Dominating the enemy with overwhelming power is not fun at all for Alice, so she always sees her opponent's reaction and tries to fight with power that exceeds the opponent by a hair. Even if she loses, she doesn't show her full power.

That's because she thinks it would be the end of the rope for her if she lost with full power. "
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Re: The Possible Truth of Alice Margatroid? A crazy theory.
« Reply #14 on: August 24, 2010, 06:09:07 AM »
When I read that and thought about it for a moment where's she's at the end of her rope, I kinda interpreted differently than going instead insane. It'd be more like that hopeless feeling you get when that zergling carpet just punched into your main even though you threw siege tanks, hunter seeker missiles and anything else you could to keep em at bay. More like hating a no-win situation, except she can't hack the computers like Captain Kirk did and change the simulation.

Re: The Possible Truth of Alice Margatroid? A crazy theory.
« Reply #15 on: August 24, 2010, 06:28:30 AM »
:uninterestedreimu:

This "theory" is now copypasta. This is like the third time someone posted that here. :V

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Re: The Possible Truth of Alice Margatroid? A crazy theory.
« Reply #16 on: August 24, 2010, 07:46:01 AM »
Yeah, the moment I saw the thread title I thought, "Oh, is this the 'Alice is a doll' thing?", but I still think it's one of the neater fan theories out there. Creates a nice bit of speculation and discussion, much like the "Yukari is Maribel from the past" theory did.

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Re: The Possible Truth of Alice Margatroid? A crazy theory.
« Reply #17 on: August 24, 2010, 09:01:54 AM »
More or less what I've always thought. If I remember correctly there was a discussion a long while back and I provided some more food for thought, such as Alice attempting to create life through animate dolls, having her consciousness filter into the dolls instead of purely strings, why Reimu doesn't recognize her in PCB, etc.

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Re: The Possible Truth of Alice Margatroid? A crazy theory.
« Reply #18 on: August 24, 2010, 02:06:41 PM »
:uninterestedreimu:

This "theory" is now copypasta. This is like the third time someone posted that here. :V

Yeah well I asked in IRC and they didn't say anything/didn't know about this theory, which is why I posted it :P.

I guess it's still a nice refresher to talk about though.

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Re: The Possible Truth of Alice Margatroid? A crazy theory.
« Reply #19 on: August 24, 2010, 04:09:29 PM »
Maybe Alice was always a doll, created by Shinki, and when she was defeated, they had to remake her body?? Maybe that's why she doesn't use all of her powers, she would get destroyed again xD (jus' jokin', btw)

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Re: The Possible Truth of Alice Margatroid? A crazy theory.
« Reply #20 on: August 24, 2010, 04:26:04 PM »
I usually blame different designs.

It's a strange theory nonetheless..at least the one about Alice being a doll (though she's been described as looking like a doll, it doesn't mean she IS a doll). I won't exactly buy it but I'll swallow the concept of Shiki bringing her into "Windows Gensokyo " for her own well-being.

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Re: The Possible Truth of Alice Margatroid? A crazy theory.
« Reply #21 on: August 24, 2010, 04:28:04 PM »
Maybe Alice was always a doll, created by Shinki, and when she was defeated, they had to remake her body?? Maybe that's why she doesn't use all of her powers, she would get destroyed again xD (jus' jokin', btw)

..Hey.

What if PC-98 Alice was a doll, and was turned into a human for the Windows series?
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Re: The Possible Truth of Alice Margatroid? A crazy theory.
« Reply #22 on: August 24, 2010, 04:53:22 PM »
My personal theory is that Alice was a child abandoned with a doll on the Nameless Hill long ago, and a sympathetic Shinki brought her into Makai and raised her as her own. The doll was left behind, where it would eventually become Medicine.

Re: The Possible Truth of Alice Margatroid? A crazy theory.
« Reply #23 on: August 24, 2010, 05:06:56 PM »
I never bought the "Alice is a doll" thing. Interesting theory though it may be, it just doesn't seem to make sense to me.

I figure that the change Alice experienced between the games had to do with the opening the Grimoire. I've noticed that many of the strongest characters are generally the most mature-looking, like Yukari, Ran, Eirin, Byakuren, Utsuho, Yuyuko, etc. So, if she gained more magical power from opening the Grimoire, then she might have matured physically and mentally. It probably was also the cause of her changing species from a human to a magician.
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Re: The Possible Truth of Alice Margatroid? A crazy theory.
« Reply #24 on: August 24, 2010, 05:09:45 PM »
While on the subject of random Alice theories, here's something to chew on:

http://touhou.wikia.com/wiki/Dolls_in_Pseudo_Paradise:_Story


Some Alice facts that are relevant to the above link: 

Alice is a human who became a youkai according to PMiSS.

Alice is a coward at heart (one could say that in a group of people, she would be the most cowardly one)

Alice is a blonde girl.

Alice is fond of a thief, even if she won't admit it (Marisa)

Alice's house is SPECIFICALLY described as a western style house in the forest in either PMiSS or the intro to IN (I forget which.  But I know it's in one of those.  Meanwhile, Marisa's is never described as such, although it does look like one in the fighting games)

Alice according to Grimoire of Marisa puts a surprising amount of thought into the outside world (her PCB spell cards are named after Outside world places like London, etc).  Possibly she originally came from the outside world.

Alice left Gensokyo at one point (she was in Makai in the PCB98 debut, which is generally not considered part of Gensokyo)

Alice is stated to look like a doll, her penultimate spell cards are Shanghai Doll and Hanged Hourai Doll.  Hourai means "Paradise".

The Hourai (Paradise) Doll hangs itself in Alice's lose portrait for PCB.  Also, the term "at the end of her rope" in Alice's profile originally comes from the idea that one commits suicide by hanging themselves.

Gensokyo is the Paradise.

Alice in Bohemian Archive is caught by Aya trying to do something quite nasty via naiing a person's effigy to a tree.  The way typical voodoo works is that doing this would have nailed the poor recipient to a tree, as well.  There is a brief hint here that deep down, Alice harbors a murderous side to her (when she threatens Aya and has a face so scary and full of malevolence that the tengu is intimidated into backing off.  Bear in mind that Tengu are supposed to be powerful and in terms of personality, Aya is usually fearless, so Alice was probably giving off one heck of a murderous scary vibe)

Alice is also revealed in Bohemian Archive to be buying medicine from Eirin to cure her bad dreams.  One could make the logical conclusion that she suffers from nightmares, if she needed this medicine in the first place.

Reimu has trouble remembering who Alice is (from PCB) despite seeing her before.



And here's how they all tie to that link:

The most cowardly of the 8 honest men (a group of people originally from the Outside that fell into Paradise, IE, Gensokyo) is a blonde girl who murdered her other cohorts because she missed the days when they were thieves, one of which she killed via nailing to a tree (despite how that cohort was INDOORS, so she must have used some sort of magic or voodoo trick to accomplish it) and another during a Shanghai style party, and the rest while they were staying in a Western Style House in the Forest, but for whatever reason (perhaps she couldn't mentally cope with it) thought the whole thing felt like a dream (or rather, a horrible nightmare, which would presumably haunt her from there on so she'd probably need medicine for it) and finally hanged herself in this paradise known as Gensokyo (IE, the hanged hourai doll, aka the doll in pseudo paradise, represents herself), and reincarnated as something no longer human (...twice?).  On her way to the exit of Gensokyo (towards where?  Who knows.  Perhaps... Makai?), she was spotted by the Shrine Maiden (stated by ZUN to be "most likely Reimu"), who feels that she probably saw this girl before but can't remember.

She also apparently looked older before she reincarnated ("Reincarnation" is the title of the song where that comment is made), after which she looked young enough to be her own daughter.  No idea how relevant that is to anything (since it's kinda working BACKWARDS from how she looked younger in the PC98 games and looks older today)




...oh, and apparently Mokou was involved, though darned if I know how that works (it's in Mokou's spell card descriptions by ZUN in Imperishable Night.  For more reference, Alice herself actually knows a lot about the Hourai elixir in the Mokou dialogue of that game, and neither she nor Mokou give any proof that that's the first time they've seen each other).  She's probably the being that several of the 8 honest men mistook for a shrine maiden near the start, before either she killed them or other youkai killed them while they were chasing after her.  The rest of them were killed by the most cowardly of the 8 honest men, though.


Oh, and the girl on the cover of the CD (the blonde one) looks like an older Alice, too (or at least looks like an older blonde girl who wears clothes similar to what Alice wears).  ...course, she also looks like Yukari but that's more likely just a coincidence.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2010, 05:28:24 PM by Tiamat »

Re: The Possible Truth of Alice Margatroid? A crazy theory.
« Reply #25 on: August 24, 2010, 05:16:20 PM »
And I just remembered that Alice's stage theme is called "The Doll Maker of Bucuresti". Bucuresti is the Romanian name for the city of Bucharest, the capital of Romania. That would mean that either Alice is Romanian or she was, at one point, a person of note in Bucharest.

...of course, there's always the possibility that PC-98 Alice and Alice Margatroid are, in fact, not the same person.
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Re: The Possible Truth of Alice Margatroid? A crazy theory.
« Reply #26 on: August 24, 2010, 05:37:30 PM »
I'm pretty sure ZUN's confirmed that they're the same person. He's said he reintroduced Alice in PCB so that she could team up with Marisa in IN.

Re: The Possible Truth of Alice Margatroid? A crazy theory.
« Reply #27 on: August 24, 2010, 07:10:31 PM »
And I just remembered that Alice's stage theme is called "The Doll Maker of Bucuresti". Bucuresti is the Romanian name for the city of Bucharest, the capital of Romania. That would mean that either Alice is Romanian or she was, at one point, a person of note in Bucharest.


This image makes a lot more sense to me now.

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Re: The Possible Truth of Alice Margatroid? A crazy theory.
« Reply #28 on: August 24, 2010, 07:12:23 PM »
Image

This image makes a lot more sense to me now.


Yes. Suddenly, it makes sense.
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Re: The Possible Truth of Alice Margatroid? A crazy theory.
« Reply #29 on: August 24, 2010, 07:59:20 PM »
...If Margatroid was a doll, Alice would be a doll too (cause they are the same)...
BUt, mostly, I think that she was from the human world and went to Gensokyo ("wonderland") And she didn't have memory of anything and so Shinki took her to Makai. No, no, wait...she was spirited away...and the ones who are spirited away never come back...It's just....DAMMIT YUKARI!!