Danmaku Plothole?

[Kyaksa]

We all know that danmaku was made by Reimu... but the thing I don't understand is...

How did Byakuren even know of it, if she was trapped in Makai for like... forever?

Is it possible that danmaku was made before Reimu stated it? Maybe it already existed then disappeared and then Reimu reborn danmaku again. You know since almost everybody is under the Hakurei's thumb...

Also... this is just my thoery but It's a rule not to kill any of the Hakurei family line, yet... where the hell is Reimu's family? And also... I think Mima was the only person to go angainst this rule and tried (and failed seeing how she's a ghost/soul) to kill the Hakurei family (of course... Touhou 1-5 is either semi-canon or not canon at all... but we have Yuka and Alice that hint otherwise).

^^; It just seems odd that's all... also... Touhou 2-5 is danmaku no matter how you look at it... so it's still brings to question how does EVERYBODY know of danmaku? DX It doesn't make sense... I mean why would the lesser demons care for danmaku?? It's like some people who don't care about politics and etc etc...

PS: Idk... I though we could talk about it... but of course there's already a topic about how "spells" are realistically....

[nintendonut888]

Reimu made spell cards, not danmaku.

[Kyaksa]

Aren't they pratically the same thing?

[nintendonut888]

That's like saying bullets are the same as guns.

As for your question, that's a plot hole that's bugged me for a long time, and is one of many reasons I disregard the whole story behind spell cards, seeing them as nothing more than special attacks. It's the same story for the Eientei folk, who isolated themselves for over a thousand years yet used spell cards.

[Pesco]

Rabbits come and go. They hear about these spellcard things and Eientei gets told.

[ArteShy]

The attacks of Byakuren may just be danmaku without using spellcards. In fighting games they are shooting danmaku too without using spellcards. So spellcards must be some type of danmaku that are sealed into the card and are too difficult to do with hands.

[MTSranger]

Byakuren uses magic, so wouldn't stuff like spells make sense for her?
Besides, things like spellcards weren't exactly unknown.

Also, the game itself could be a giant abstraction anyways
I mean, Reimu and Marisa should be complex barrages like they do in IN stage 4,
but since 2 sets of danmaku is too confusing for the player, the game abstracts it to shooting straight fast bullets
In the same way, since the game adopts spellcards, might as well have Byakuren use them for consistency.

[CK Crash]

My theory: Danmaku was the traditional form of dueling in Gensokyo among youkai magicians and other high level youkai, but the weaker ones were more prone to using their full power recklessly to hunt down humans. Reimu created the spell card rules to facilitate a return to danmaku battles so that humans had a chance to defend themselves, but danmaku battles had already existed before this. This doesn't necessarily explain all of the PC-98 bosses, but it's possible that Yumemi, Yuka and Shinki didn't come from places where danmaku battles were prominent, or that they were genuinely trying to kill the player (as opposed to just defeating her).

[Dizzy H. "Muffin" Muffin]

As I've said in at least three other threads, my theory is that Spell Cards have always been "a particularly cool kind of danmaku-pattern," i.e. as far back as Byakuren's times, and Reimu just created the Rules. And things would have presumably gone really badly if the player had lost against Byakuren and she wasn't a Friend To All Living Things (the Bad Ends

Spoiler:

merely have them getting stuck in Makai.

)

[Nobu]

If I try to confine it to logic, I think of it as the spellcard system is so weaved into the fabric of Gensokyo that it comes naturally to anyone within, sorta of like instinct. And the spellcards that emerge embody the combatant's character, essentially fragments of their soul. Though spellcards can be created deliberately as well.

If i'm not trying to confine it to logic, then the spellcard system just is. Under the Gensokyoan logic of 'You don't need explanations of why things are the way they are as long as you don't think too hard about it.' Basically like the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle, except applied to Gensokyo. :toot:

[Lord Phantasm Satori]

spellcards were invented so tragic deaths by danmaku could be avoided, such as Sariel and Konngara, and their minions. Mima was strong enough to survive though... Idk, I'm just tossing in another random excuse to explain why they were never seen again.

but I don't think it was ever stated that reimu came up with the rules. all it said was "shrine maiden", right?

[nintendonut888]

spellcards were invented so tragic deaths by danmaku could be avoided, such as Sariel and Konngara, and their minions. Mima was strong enough to survive though... Idk, I'm just tossing in another random excuse to explain why they were never seen again.

Or...Reimu simply never traveled to hell or that part of Makai again? >.>

[Drake]

Insert heroine here tells Byakuren how danmaku duels work. Understood, she whips up spellcards, i.e. thought up some patterns and explained them. Made cards depicting patterns. Duel begins.

?

[Ayuka]

This came up in the misc questions thread once and one of the theories was that if the spellcard rules were written on a Devil's Contract, then everyone in Gensokyo has to follow them, maybe even to the point of finding themselves using spellcards even when they don't really know what they are.

I haven't read much on it myself so I can't really comment, but I figured I'd go ahead and post what I have read.

[Myschi]

Insert heroine here tells Byakuren how danmaku duels work. Understood, she whips up spellcards, i.e. thought up some patterns and explained them. Made cards depicting patterns. Duel begins.

?

Makes sense, but... I don't know, I haven't personally been to that stage or seen the dialogue, but doesn't rational talking-stuff-over-and-explaining-things get thrown out the window in Incident Mode(tm)?

[Lord Phantasm Satori]

all you have to do is name already existing patterns. like shinki's pattern wasn't a spell card, Byakuren borrowed it, and gave it a name. simple.

[Drake]

Makes sense, but... I don't know, I haven't personally been to that stage or seen the dialogue, but doesn't rational talking-stuff-over-and-explaining-things get thrown out the window in Incident Mode(tm)?

Incidents are just series of duels that lead to a clincher. If everyone has to declare their spells before the duel, then you could reasonably say that if someone didn't know of the rules they would be informed. Besides, such incidents aren't typically urgent enough that the heroine would ditch the rules in order to solve it; that's the entire reason they made the spellcard duels in the first place.

[Myschi]

Incidents are just series of duels that lead to a clincher. If everyone has to declare their spells before the duel, then you could reasonably say that if someone didn't know of the rules they would be informed. Besides, such incidents aren't typically urgent enough that the heroine would ditch the rules in order to solve it; that's the entire reason they made the spellcard duels in the first place.

Now that I give it some thought, that does make sense. The Devil's Contract theory's another good one (or perhaps it's just gameplay/story segregation).

[Lord Phantasm Satori]

Its an attempt to make the spellcard system an actual cannonical part of gensyoko instead of just a gameplay system.

[Recon 5]

The plot has to have holes, otherwise Reimu, Marisa, Sakuya etc. would be permanently dead from not being able to graze through it.

[Doll.S CUBE]

I reckon the spell card system is just a set of rules put onto an already existing form of fighting, like tournaments and competitions.

[Hello Purvis]

I still like to think Byakuren came up with spellcards independently, as it is right up her alley and she didn't have anything else to do there.

Alternately: Shinki told her. Because I could see Shinki popping into Hokkai every so often because she could.

[Unassuming Squid]

Incidents are just series of duels that lead to a clincher. If everyone has to declare their spells before the duel, then you could reasonably say that if someone didn't know of the rules they would be informed. Besides, such incidents aren't typically urgent enough that the heroine would ditch the rules in order to solve it; that's the entire reason they made the spellcard duels in the first place.

That makes sense, but the thought of Reimu/Marisa pausing to explain the rules of the duel to Byakuren right after the epic dialogue cracks me up somehow.

[Dizzy H. "Muffin" Muffin]

Now imagine them immediately resuming the "RAWR EPIC" attitudes after they're done explaining it.

[Esoterica]

I'd like to say "Since Byakuren can use Shinki's signature attack in spellcard form, she was probably introduced to them by Shinki between the happenings of MS and EoSD", but a timeline of any sort and that theory's dead in the water.  So yeah, unless her sealing didn't completely seal her off from the outside world somehow (Shinki being strong enough to communicate with her still, etc) I'm stumped.  I don't recall if there was a time gap between her being freed and the heroines finding her; would it be possible that Nue left them to be intentionally discovered?  I don't know, It's a plothole that's bugged me for awhile, too.

Now imagine them immediately resuming the "RAWR EPIC" attitudes after they're done explaining it.

I can't begin to tell you how hard I'm laughing.

[Drake]

I assumed that's how it went, yeah. However, just the same you have to wonder why AFTER ONE THOUSAND YEARS I'M FINALLY FREE, Byakuren becomes unsealed by Shou, kind of hovers on over to the heroine and OHH THE WORLD OF DHARMA IS FILLED WITH LIGHT. Totally believable reaction to being unsealed, yup.

[Nobu]

I assumed that's how it went, yeah. However, just the same you have to wonder why AFTER ONE THOUSAND YEARS I'M FINALLY FREE, Byakuren becomes unsealed by Shou, kind of hovers on over to the heroine and OHH THE WORLD OF DHARMA IS FILLED WITH LIGHT. Totally believable reaction to being unsealed, yup.

Yeah, the reaction should have probably went more like this.

[Montblanc]

I love you.

Also, Shinki x Byakuren is now canon. I'll bet Byakuren gave Shinki the idea for the Demon Tourism.

[Sejha]

If I remember right.
Spell cards first appeared in Touhou 4, then disappeared in touhou 5.
Before Makai was sealed.

If I'm wrong, PLEASE correct me, but I was sure that it was part of the plot.

Alternate answer:
Why, it's the same answer I always give in a situation like this.
Yukari did it.

[Ryuu]

If I remember right.
Spell cards first appeared in Touhou 4, then disappeared in touhou 5.
Before Makai was sealed.

If I'm wrong, PLEASE correct me, but I was sure that it was part of the plot.

iirc rumia is the first character to ever use the spellcard system so yeah.