Touhou 12.8 The Great Fairy Wars English Patch

[Maav]

I've had a total of 2 hours of sleep in the past two days, so I apologize.

Haha, I see.

[S. Nazerine]

Maybe I've been out of the loop here, but, where's drywall been?

I haven't seen him since the DS patch came out--I assume he's busy with other stuff.

[Dizzy H. "Muffin" Muffin]

They also put "Who do you think I am, anyway?" instead of "Who the hell do you think I am!?" (danbooru warning)

[StrikerX22]

I'm pretty annoyed with the people telling Prime to chill. I think the posts in question were passionate yes, but tasteful and logical. I agree with his points. But I also think that it's important that you try to get a working relationship with the other team so that you can actually release an update and not an alternative. This is important to the community if you truly wish to expand it, not only in making it not confusing for players and also being high quality so that they're pleased with it (a reason to take out "Faily," out of professionalism over [sic]ing as if it were a sacred but likely inaccurate text), but furthermore to increase the awareness of fellow potential team members for the future. Above all, civility is the only way to do that and to get certain things done your way (if better) if you try to cooperate. That's when simple passion can create problems, but not here.

I do believe you should attempt to finish your patch, if not just to say "look, we actually finished it." Putting accomplishments under your belt is always important and this one is close to being complete, even if it can still be improved here and there. Perfection is a goal now, I'd say, over getting it out quickly, so yeah be careful.

Is there a list of the Japanese and your translations side by side anywhere like the wiki? I'd like to be able to compare translations some time if so. Otherwise it'll be troublesome.

[Tengukami]

The issue was that he was strawmanning, i.e. yelling at people for 'giving up' when no one actually had.

[drywall]

Maybe I've been out of the loop here, but, where's drywall been?

Been feelin' kinda chubby tired so I didn't step up to the plate this time. Sorta glad I didn't since I would of been royally pissed if I hadn't finished before yesterday, nobody likes having their thunder stolen. It's weird cause those guys used to be pretty active in this forum and I thought they would say something, but I guess gensokyo.org does its own thing now. Anyway, I think the best compromise would be for everyone who's unsatisfied with the patch to bug gensokyo.org to release the source code and scripts. Then anyone could edit the script as they like and create their own personalized patch. However, if that doesn't pan out I could look into making the other patch if there's still demand down the road.

[Tengukami]

Seems there's demand alright, as everything's done and we just need someone to pack it up.

[trancehime]

Anyway, I think the best compromise would be for everyone who's unsatisfied with the patch to bug gensokyo.org to release the source code and scripts. Then anyone could edit the script as they like and create their own personalized patch. However, if that doesn't pan out I could look into making the other patch if there's still demand down the road.

I really don't see this happening.

At all. Y'all can try but it isn't going to get you anywhere. Given your classy show of making it seem like some of you were complaining and then suddenly asking for tools certainly won't help your case.

[Ravenxeo]

I really don't see this happening.

At all. Y'all can try but it isn't going to get you anywhere. Given your classy show of making it seem like some of you were complaining and then suddenly asking for tools certainly won't help your case.

Its hardly as if people went storming the gate and screaming at them for shoddy workmanship.
there was some light nitpicking at best.
Hardly enough to have them fold their arms and huff.
and if it IS enough for that...then i dont think we would want their help anyway.

Besides which all this stuff is done right?
why bother asking for their stuff if all you'd do it delete it all and replace it with what you did.

[trancehime]

Its hardly as if people went storming the gate and screaming at them for shoddy workmanship.
there was some light nitpicking at best.
Hardly enough to have them fold their arms and huff.
and if it IS enough for that...then i dont think we would want their help anyway.

Besides which all this stuff is done right?
why bother asking for their stuff if all you'd do it delete it all and replace it with what you did.

It's less the actual nitpicking than how they went about doing it. And actually it DID seem like a certain someone was being extremely passive-aggressive about it, even if they weren't really angry per se...

And if everything is done, why would you need to ask for all their tools anyway? What exactly are you going to do with it? Don't you just need to pack up shit?

[Azure Lazuline]

why bother asking for their stuff if all you'd do it delete it all and replace it with what you did.

I specifically said that we would be combining the best of both, not overwriting all of theirs. We'd be helping both communities AND get a better patch.

And if everything is done, why would you need to ask for all their tools anyway? What exactly are you going to do with it? Don't you just need to pack up shit?

We don't have a way to pack it. That's what we were asking about.

Please stop arguing, everyone. If you're not going to help, go somewhere else. This is the topic about getting the patch done, not the topic about arguing whether or not we should do it.

[trancehime]

We don't have a way to pack it. That's what we were asking about.

Oh, well that would make too much sense. D:

It didn't seem clear to me since it seemed like everything was lacking so D:

[Tengukami]

Oh, well that would make too much sense. D:

It didn't seem clear to me since it seemed like everything was lacking so D:

That's why I'm glad drywall showed up. And if he has the time and the inclination to take what you guys have done, and pack it all up, all the better.

[drywall]

Let me just stress that creating another patch to "pack" everything up is not a trivial task, and would probably take me several weeks to hammer out the finer details (figuring out the msg/ecl file formats, getting all the text to fit on the screen, loading fonts, etc...). This in light of the fact that the gensokyo patch already does all this perfectly well is why I think getting the source released is the best option for addressing the translation concerns. Just wanted to put that out there.

[Tengukami]

Alright. It's an option that hadn't occurred to me, seems reasonable enough.

[S. Nazerine]

Yeah, making a new one entirely from scratch seems??silly.

Anyway, for my part, my work here is done and I don't have a strong feeling either way, so if people want to get the source from gensokyo.org and build it, sounds good to me, but otherwise we'll just have one patch and that'll be all.

[Kiefmaster99]

Spell cards: Extra stage

SC-like -> SC Style (MS Style; BS Style)

Meteor "Super Perseid" -> Shooting Star (literal)

Now, they stuck with Light Attack for 光撃. I used Light Blast since that was taken from the IN ThWiki entry. I will leave the choice up to you to pick one one you'll adopt. If you choose Light Attack, then that means the IN entry is gonna be changed.

[sadpanda]

I registered here just to say that it doesn't matter if you guys weren't the first ones to patch. I have been following your translation efforts ever since the game came out, and you guys are so dedicated to your work and the effort you put out for something you don't even get paid for is astonishing.
Your level of work quality is also phenomenal. Your DS patch was just fantastic.
Please don't let the fact that gensokyo.org got theirs out first discourage you from putting out a perfectly good translation that you have put weeks of effort into. It would truly be a waste. Many good people like me are counting on you for the quality translation release we have come to know you for.
So turn that frown upsidown, and why not finish what you are so close to completing? There's nothing wrong with multiple versions of a translation, and you guys are a very high profile site, so it can only benefit you!
In the words of Zun...
YOU ARE SUPER PLAYER!

[Azure Lazuline]

I went over to gensokyo.org to ask them to combine our patches, and the general consensus seems to be "no," although there is no official word yet. I'm mostly waiting for the coder, to see if the patching program/method will be open-source, though I'm not too optimistic. If they say no, then we're pretty much sunk, since the only person who would have the ability to make a similar program (drywall) probably wouldn't be too interested in spending weeks coding something that already exists (the problem that Prime 2.0 mentioned: Once a patch already exists, the possibility of an alternate patch that would have existed otherwise might not happen anymore).

Here's the discussion so far, starting about 2/3 down the page with my post, then continuing to a forum topic that is linked near the end. Please, if you're going to contribute to this effort, then be nice about it. We already made a bad enough impression from them reading this thread, and we don't need it worse. If you're not absolutely sure that they won't misinterpret your comment or otherwise get angered by it, don't post.

And to any gensokyo.org people that read this: We are not doing this just because we want our work in your patch. We simply want a higher-quality translation, and the best way to do that is a joint effort. ZUN puts a lot of effort into the little details, so we should too.

[S. Nazerine]

Ironically, the people who have been being disrespectful towards the gensokyo.org team all had nothing to do with the MotK patch effort, and only showed up after GS.org released.

I have quite a lot to say about people who treat a translation effort--any translation effort--like that (badmouthing it because it made some small mistakes/didn't translate something open to interpretation the way they had interpreted it/isn't the group they like), but I decided I'd keep my mouth shut on that topic at the start of this discussion here, so I'll continue to do so. Just, you know?chill, folks. Why would you go and hate on a very well-organized piece of rather difficult work just because someone else was trying to do the same thing? At best, you make yourself look like a jerk, and at worst, you kill whatever chance there was that a joint effort could be made (though that's pretty slim from the start--I mean, if I completed a patch or script and someone else came along and said "heeeey could you use my translations?" I do not see myself reacting particularly kindly).

[Docteur Hartmann]

Reading the topic, I have the feeling that the main trouble is an horrible misunderstanding.
I don't really get why you want to update the patch (names trouble, etc...), but I have the feeling that something is going wrong. I don't know if it's how you're asking, or if it's how they're understanding it, and I don't want to make any statement.
Besides, since I don't really know the different english-speaking communities, I can't really help, but I wish you good luck.

In fact: here is what I think. Nazerine is right, and even if you are right, I don't think that any of you will change his attitude. And I add that you should concert together BEFORE developping any patch.
Because:
1) Trying to make your own patch, when GS.org is know to make them isn't really sharp.
2) Waiting the release and saying 'there are errors here and here', doesn't matter how you say it, it sounds arrogant.
So I think it's screwed. Even with the best intentions, you won't get anywhere.

(I didn't read the whole topic, I'm just giving you my feelings).

[Kiefmaster99]

Perhaps I should more clearly state my stance.

My main goal is to ensure accurate spell card translations for the wiki. I am neutral with regards to whose patch effort I am helping and I am willing to help either one if I find mistakes in either. (The post on the gensokyo.org patch page regarding the typo and TL issue was me by the way; that kind of post is no different from me correcting the MotK graphics package). I commend both efforts for trying to make a patch with the highest quality possible, and must respect whatever decisions either efforts make (gs.org provides a fair rationale to correct the faily typo for instance).

That being said though, I didn't find gensokyo.org's patch effort and found MotK's. This is why I consulted you for SC translations. I more or less contributed to your patch effort, since at that time I thought you were the only guys working on one. Also, working with either patch effort would reduce the amount of TLs on the wiki that would run contrary to a patch.

SC Edit: After some consultation on Touhou Wiki, I am sticking with MS-like and BS-like.

[Prime 2.0]

My initial post was made simply for the purpose of galvanizing the patching team, since every single post prior to mine after news of the gs.org patch broke, including ones belonging to actual team members, expressed the sentiment that the shrinemaiden.org patch was dead. So I made a laundry list of what could be improved, and all posts thereafter were in response to being bashed for it, with my focus being clearly on the lack of documentation, and that putting out one patch makes it infinitely harder to make a second one, which would be problematic if support for the gs.org patch mirrored that of their Hisotensoku patch("We'll fix the bug if we have another release" "nobody cares about the credits and we haven't altered them before" "There are no plans to release the tools used"). Though it has since been stated that they do plan to update the patch, I was not aware this at the time... or perhaps they simply hadn't announced that yet.

I'll say it again: the point was never to badmouth the gs.org patch, it was to make it clear that this patch was worth continuing, in the face of the then-current sentiment of "we give up".

[Tengukami]

Galvanizing, eh? That's a pretty self-important way of describing it. Looked more like you came barging in and started yelling at people for giving up, when no one had. And it didn't help.

I'm sure this gang will pull it off eventually. And I'll use their patch when they do.

[Prime 2.0]

Galvanizing, eh? That's a pretty self-important way of describing it. Looked more like you came barging in and started yelling at people for giving up, when no one had. And it didn't help.

I'm sorry, are you trying to be antagonistic here? I want to put this absurd discussion to rest already. I didn't use the word "Galvanize" to be self important, I used it to describe a course of action that was intended to generate action and moral, as was my intention at the time, and as per the definition of the word.

And for that matter, I can't see the future, nor can I see what you or anyone else is thinking other than what they tell me: and what I saw was

Okay, so since the other translation patch is out, that means that all my image editing work was wasted? I'm still happy the patch is out, it just kind of sucks for me... I'm not too sad, just a bit frustrated, I guess.

It happens, Azure--I can't tell you how many times I've been asked to translate some manga so someone can do a scanlation release and then had the requester back out on their end of the deal and/or had another group release first.

Which is why I don't translate manga anymore.

Anyway, good work to everybody who worked on that version, and very nice timing indeed!

Well it's sad that it's for naught now. If it were manga, I'd still think it's worth it to have another release for preference, making a name for yourselves, competing in accuracy over speed etc.; but since it's a game that has to be patched and such, it does make it more complicated when different patches are introduced. You can always look over their work and make suggestions for a future update with the insights you've gained if you like, though.

I suppose with game patches, it's all the more important to look into who might already be involved before investing a lot.

As I said early on, this is a stupid flamewar over semantics that I'd rather not have any part in. As far as I can see, everyone has made their points along with multiple attempts at clarification, and all that is going on now is that everyone on either side is vying for the last word as though this were something you could "win", and even this post falls under that. If you really, really want it that bad you can have it, because I'm jumping ship from this discussion. There simply isn't any point in participating anymore, there is nothing to gain in it besides a few new enemies, and that's not what I want.

[Tengukami]

I'm sorry, are you trying to be antagonistic here? I want to put this absurd discussion to rest already. ... words ... As I said early on, this is a stupid flamewar over semantics that I'd rather not have any part in.

Wow. Project much? Dude, people got discouraged that someone else released a patch. Which I think is pretty natural, but the sun hadn't officially set on the project, either. If you wanted to "galvanize" people, maybe you should've taken a different vocabulary and tone, because - as numerous responses to you attest - you don't come across so much as someone trying to rally the troops as someone who just came barging in to scold people.

You can accept that or dismiss it, I don't give a toss. But I think it's pretty rich to come back now claiming you were just trying to motivate some people, and it's us who are engaging in flaming.

[Ravenxeo]

Lets all shut up and decide if we are gonna continue this or not.
I personally dont WANT to use their patch cause i have always gotten mine from here and i like the work you do.
I would very much like to see this finished..
There are more people on the internet who know how to construct a patch so if Dry cant then we could look for someone else to slam it all together into something usable..

[Tengukami]

Anything I could have contributed - proofreading - I already did. But as I said, I like the passion in this group, and believe they'll put together a great patch, which I look forward to using.

[Azure Lazuline]

Everyone just needs to shut up about this. Yes, that includes you. Don't try to make the last comment because you think you're exempt from this. I know I don't have any power here, and I apologize if this counts as "backseat moderating" or whatever, but I'm sick of both this thread and the one over at gensokyo.org. I seem to be one of the only people who actually tried to get something done instead of pointless bickering over semantics that nobody cares about.

I don't care about this anymore. I made my contribution and I did all that I could, so I'm out of here. If the code is released, go ahead and make the patch. If the code's not released, decide if it's worth it to make our own and act accordingly. If you're just going to complain about other people's opinions, then just shut up. It's not helping, and you're being no better than the people you think are wrong.

Yes, I realize that I'm being a hypocrite. I just don't care right now.

Thank you, and good night.

[Tengukami]

Alright. Sorry for sticking up for the team here. Trust me - that will never happen again.