Author Topic: Let's argue about why *thing* is/isn't bullshit (Touhou debate thread)  (Read 59736 times)

Rank is one of those ideas that sounds good but is pretty much always terrible.

Want to know a game with a good rank system? Deathsmiles. If you suck, you can pick level 1. If you're decent, level 2. If you're good level 3. For Black Label, level 999.


Here's one of many possible examples of why rank in Touhou is garbage. Mercury Poison. At max rank, this thing is easy. At low rank, it's a clusterfuck.


Oh, and Battle Garegga is stupid anyway. Suiciding should never have to be part of your survival strategy. How the hell does that make sense? Encouraging suiciding in any way in a game is just dumb.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2010, 07:06:22 PM by Enigma »

Oh, and Battle Garegga is stupid anyway. Suiciding should never have to be part of your survival strategy. How the hell does that make sense? Encouraging suiciding in any way in a game is just dumb.
WHAT ARE THEY TRYING TO TEACH TO OUR CHILDREN

Azure Lazuline

  • Looooove!!
  • PM me for free huggles and love!
    • Entanma Project - indie game development
No mention of Mokou's "flying cards of extremely fast death" nonspell? I know you can just bomb-spam it and that extra stage gives you too many resources so it's not a problem, but I've honestly never seen anyone capture it before. It always seemed out-of-place in that battle.

Also, rank system: I'm going to have to agree that it's a good idea with bad execution. Everything else I want to say has already been said, though. I dislike fast bullets in general (like BoWaP and such), but in most cases, I know that's a problem with me not being able to dodge rather than the actual attacks.

Sapz

  • There's no escape.
  • *
  • It's time to burn!
Well, Dodonpachi rank doesn't make all that difference, IIRC. Also I noticed that max rank EoSD on some things really likes to screw you over pretty bad. Not everything, but a few of Patchouli's cards, and I think one of China's. I also think Remilia to be hellish on max rank.

In short: I like that the game increases the challenge if I'm breezing through it, but I don't like things becoming nigh-impossible, that's adjusting too far.
DDP's rank is very subtle because it increases slowly over the course of the entire game. If you're not that great at DDP you probably won't notice it at all; however, if you no-death up to say, Stage 5 or 6 and then die, the difference is pretty noticable. Keeps things a challenge for the players trying to keep their max bomb multiplier all the way into the second loop (which is necessary for the really high scores). As for EoSD's rank, yeah, it's a pretty significant difference. Personally, I'd prefer it to be a little more subtle, but everything is still perfectly doable at high rank. Also, as far as I'm aware, not all of Remilia's spell cards are affected by rank - pretty sure her first two are and her final two (the ones significantly harder than the others) aren't. I don't think Vampire Illusion is affected but if it is it still ends up playing out around the same way regardless of what rank it's at, so. :V
It makes a huge difference if you're playing SanaeB or MarisA, which happen to be my 2 most played shot types. Each lost power is the game makes things way worse.
What's in your hand? Back at me. I have it! It's a death with that power loss you hate. Look again. The power loss is now completely insignificant!

In all seriousness, please, please give the shot analysis a look over before spouting this kind of stuff. For MarisaA, dying and hitting 3.00 power will bring you to just under 95% power, and dying again to bring you to 2.00 power will still leave you at about 90%. The power losses for SanaeB are even more insignificant; at focused range (where you'll be spending most of your boss fights), 3.00 power is a little over 95% of the damage of 4.00 power, while 2.00 is a little over 90%. The only times it'll make any kind of significant difference is if you're abusing the spread shot on the stages and completely neglecting your base shot where most of the damage actually comes from (which is pretty much doing it wrong) or if you're using the focused/unfocused shotgun on bosses, and if this happens the chances are you've bombed anyway and would destroy the boss' health bar regardless of how much damage your shot is doing since SanaeB's bomb is what it is. :V
Rank is one of those ideas that sounds good but is pretty much always terrible.

Want to know a game with a good rank system? Deathsmiles. If you suck, you can pick level 1. If you're decent, level 2. If you're good level 3. For Black Label, level 999.
No, no, you're getting mixed up. That is something different; it's an option you pick at the beginning of each level, and it's called 'difficulty'.
Here's one of many possible examples of why rank in Touhou is garbage. Mercury Poison. At max rank, this thing is easy. At low rank, it's a clusterfuck.
Yeah, that's fair enough. ZUN didn't exactly get it perfect by any means. :V
Oh, and Battle Garegga is stupid anyway. Suiciding should never have to be part of your survival strategy. How the hell does that make sense? Encouraging suiciding in any way in a game is just dumb.
Pssh, Garegga is an excellent game. Its system is incredibly unconventional, but it works very well in the game's context and has a lot of depth to it - the entire game is built around the rank, and everything you may choose to do affects it in some form, including shooting, collecting items, destroying things, not dying, etc., so it's very cerebral and you have to plan your actions out well. It seems odd at first, but it's a very well designed game. Mind telling me why it doesn't work instead of just labelling it garbage without backing your point up? It's not Touhou, it isn't meant to be a survival game; it's a scoring game, and the survival is secondary to that since you get an extend for every million points you earn.
No mention of Mokou's "flying cards of extremely fast death" nonspell? I know you can just bomb-spam it and that extra stage gives you too many resources so it's not a problem, but I've honestly never seen anyone capture it before. It always seemed out-of-place in that battle.

Also, rank system: I'm going to have to agree that it's a good idea with bad execution. Everything else I want to say has already been said, though. I dislike fast bullets in general (like BoWaP and such), but in most cases, I know that's a problem with me not being able to dodge rather than the actual attacks.
I wouldn't call Mokou's rings of death attack unfair or bullshit by any means, it's perfectly doable given the requisite amount of skill; having said that, I agree that it's pretty stupidly placed in my opinion since it's far harder than pretty much anything else she'll throw at you. It seems more like a challenging Lunatic attack than something that belongs in Extra. :V
« Last Edit: May 20, 2010, 07:52:38 PM by Sapz »
Let's fight.

I wasn't saying it was a rank system.

I'm just saying that the selectable difficulty for each stage was a great thing. Not sure if there's a seperate rank system, but it's still a good thing.

It would definitely be interesting to be able to play a Touhou or other shmup like that. Okay, I want to do some good scoring or I'm good at this level on Lunatic, okay let's go down to Hard, okay this level is garbage on Hard, so Normal. Okay back to Lunatic or Hard. Of course, a Normal/Hard/Lunatic 1cc would need to pick the same difficulty or higher the whole way through.


And not everyone likes having to play for score, so those of us who don't would find Garegga's rank to be crap.

and the survival is secondary to that since you get an extend for every million points you earn.

 It seems more like a challenging Lunatic attack than something that belongs in Extra. :V

ZUN should implement that it feature in Touhou :V

And about Blue Rings of Death. I think they are more than a challenging lunatic attack. Its far harder than any attack in the entirity of Imperishable Night. I don't think anyone could capture that attack if it wasn't so short. (Well, someone could probably but that's beside the point.)

It might actually be one of the hardest attacks in the series.

RainfallYoshi

  • Yoshi of Skies & Rains
  • Who is it that calls for me?
I'm surprised there hasn't been a mention of PoFV in this topic yet. The whole "hidden timer where the CPU dodges everything" thing kinda calls for it.

Iryan

  • Ph?nglui mglw?nafh
  • Cat R?lyeh wgah?nagl fhtagn.
I'm surprised there hasn't been a mention of PoFV in this topic yet. The whole "hidden timer where the CPU dodges everything" thing kinda calls for it.
Wait what.
Old Danmakufu stuff can be found here!

"As the size of an explosion increases, the numbers of social situations it is incapable of solving approaches zero."

Bananamatic

somebody once said

"life is like battle garegga, if you kill man life becomes harder and the only way to make it easier is to kill yourself"

I'm surprised there hasn't been a mention of PoFV in this topic yet. The whole "hidden timer where the CPU dodges everything" thing kinda calls for it.

Probably because i don't play PoFV.

Ecthel

  • Jack of all trades, lazy at most.
we need more PCB.
Am I the only person who doesn't like PCB?... I guess I should probably start running  :derp:

Quote
And yes, I hate the UFO power system. ReimuA, ReimuB, MarisA, and SanaeA are completely useless for stages. ReimuB,MarisaB, SanaeA, and SanaeB are useless for killing bosses

Reimu B, Marisa A, and Sanae A useless for stages? Reimu and Sanae can trivialize some sections with their homing, and MarisA is excellent for UFO collection and some enemy patterns. For bosses, ReimuB can kill some hard cards more quickly due to homing (Most Valuable Vajra hurr ). Marisa B... Okay you got me there. Sanae A also has homing benefits to a lesser extent and Sanae B's bomb + shotgun can nullify almost every spell card in the game.

About Garegga: Garegga doesn't reward bad play; it has a different definition of good play.  Thing is, being a shmup means a very narrow set of constraints, of which Garegga violates a few. My main problem is dark bullets on dark backgrounds.  :/


Sapz

  • There's no escape.
  • *
  • It's time to burn!
About Garegga: Garegga doesn't reward bad play; it has a different definition of good play.  Thing is, being a shmup means a very narrow set of constraints, of which Garegga violates a few. My main problem is dark bullets on dark backgrounds.  :/
Give Garegga Type 2 a try; it's a revised edition with bright yellow bullets rather than dark bullets for the most part. However, it doesn't include the hidden characters, so you might want to keep with Type 1 if you prefer them over the regular ships.
Let's fight.

LHCling

  • Metang@
  • ( 。゚ 3っ   )っ
ReimuB, MarisA, and SanaeA . . . completely useless for stages
...


keep with Type 1 if you prefer them over the regular ships.
GAIN GAIN GAIN GAIN GAIN GAIN GAIN GAIN
[16:25] <Kuruminut> Shut up MS Word, "fangirlism" is totally a word
<>
[07:59] <Sapz> ベーティさんは馬鹿っぽいだろう、この「っぽい」好き者

But you can't have bombs for every spellcard in the game.

And without bombs, you're not shotgunning, which makes her damage pretty bad then.

And if using SanaeB's spread for stages is doing it wrong, how am I supposed to be doing it right? Actually, I don't ignore the frontal shot, but the spread is important for me too.

Homing doesn't seem anywhere near as effective though. It's crap for destroying UFO's and doesn't cover as much as spread does.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2010, 10:27:42 PM by Enigma »

Sapz

  • There's no escape.
  • *
  • It's time to burn!
But you can't have bombs for every spellcard in the game.
You'd be surprised how far they get you, actually. My UFO Lunatic 1cc involved one card capture in the entirety of the last three stages (Murasa's first), and some required a death and a bomb, or multiple bombs.
And without bombs, you're not shotgunning, which makes her damage pretty bad then.
It's not as powerful as a forward focus type for that kind of thing, but the damage is still very respectable and higher than some other types.
And if using SanaeB's spread for stages is doing it wrong, how am I supposed to be doing it right?
The spread is useful, but it's not your main source of damage by any means; it's nice for taking out the little popcorn enemies to your sides and the like, but for tougher enemies I find you're usually going to be relying on your main shot if you want to take them out fast enough.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2010, 11:01:07 PM by Sapz »
Let's fight.

Drake

  • *
Enigma, I think now is the time to bust out every replay that you think the game has screwed you over. Also, a UFO run of ReimuB, MarisA, and SanaeA. I would say SanaeB as well just for good measure.

A Colorful Calculating Creative and Cuddly Crafty Callipygous Clever Commander
- original art by Aiけん | ウサホリ -

Do you think I save replays of these?

LHCling

  • Metang@
  • ( 。゚ 3っ   )っ
Well, you need proof for these kinds of things, don't you? Replays are a great way of showing us this.
[16:25] <Kuruminut> Shut up MS Word, "fangirlism" is totally a word
<>
[07:59] <Sapz> ベーティさんは馬鹿っぽいだろう、この「っぽい」好き者

Sanae B cruises through stages with absolutely no opposition, thus every other shot type that actually has to dodge FUCKING SUCKS

we shuld make a shot type that has huge spread and 400 dps that homes in on all enemies and kills them b4 they shute bulelts, that wuld be awsum fun game and ttly balenced

I was having a hard time pinpointing why you just constantly spew out the worst possible trolling ever, Enigma, and I think I've finally found a reason.

You are fucking spoiled, Enigma.

Fucking.

Spoiled.

shute-an gaems r hard, welcome 2 them

Well, I do prefer SakuyaB in PCB, though I can also play ReimuB and MarisA somewhat okay, not enough to 1cc Lunatic though.

And I don't want shottypes that trivialize everything. I don't need Yuyuko's spread in IN, and Sakuya's spread doesn't help as much for me when I try Scarlet Team. I can play any shottype except MarisA in MoF. My SA Lunatic 1cc was with ReimuC, one of the worst shots in the game, which goes against your argument entirely.

nintendonut888

  • So those that live now, pledge on your fists and souls
  • Leave a sign of your life, no matter how small...
Reimu C? Worst shot type?

Haaaaaaah.
nintendonut888: Hey Baity. I beat the high score for Sanae B hard on the score.dat you sent me. X3
Baity: For a moment, I thought you broke 1.1billion. Upon looking at my score.dat, I can assume that you destroyed the score that is my failed (first!) 1cc attempt on my first day of playing. Congratulations.

[19:42] <Sapz> I think that's the only time I've ever seen a suicide bullet shoot its own suicide bullet

one of the worst, not THE WORST.

That goes to either MarisA due to the reverse focus that isn't good unlike IN's Netherworld Team and messed up power or MarisaC.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2010, 11:57:51 PM by Enigma »

Barrakketh

  • You're suddenly Director of Fixing That Shit!
  • Vice President of It's Your Problem Now.
Do you think I save replays of these?
If it happens as often as you make it sound like I imagine it wouldn't take but a couple of days to rack up quite a few replays.



About UFO's power chart...is there any good reason to use SanaeA?  With the exception of the times that you're not under a boss it looks like she does less damage than SanaeB at long range, doesn't have the shotgun option (plus froggy nuke for more opportunities to burn down a card), and doesn't rape stages like SanaeB.
Cheating? I cannot even wrap my head around the point of it. Wouldn't you know you had cheated? How on Earth could you maintain crisp certainty of your superiority to all others? And if you're unable to do that, what's the point of anything?

The Greatest Dog

  • Grazing at Mach 10
  • 90 Frames per Second GO!
About UFO's power chart...is there any good reason to use SanaeA?  With the exception of the times that you're not under a boss it looks like she does less damage than SanaeB at long range, doesn't have the shotgun option (plus froggy nuke for more opportunities to burn down a card), and doesn't rape stages like SanaeB.
Unless you're at a very specific angle, you're only going to get one frog on the boss which means that you're either getting 25~ dps or 0.
With SanaeA, you're guaranteed to get 54 DPS pretty much no matter where you are.
Homing shots are homing.

Ecthel

  • Jack of all trades, lazy at most.
Quote
WORDS WORDS WORDS RAWR

Seriously people, take it easy!
 :3

(I'm not sorry that I used that meme.)

THIS THREAD IS NOT ABOUT TAKING IT EASY

ONLY ANGER

on that note i totally think that because i suck at something, it is bullshit and unfair. discuss.

What annoys me is when people say things like Sinking Vortex (Murasa's second card) is bullshit. That's one of the fairest cards in the series :C

The Greatest Dog

  • Grazing at Mach 10
  • 90 Frames per Second GO!
What annoys me is when people say things like Sinking Vortex (Murasa's second card) is bullshit. That's one of the fairest cards in the series :C
I can capture it consistently. It's just that sometimes Murasa's movements make it about 1.5x as hard as it usually is, especially since the boss doesn't move toward your horizontal position anymore.
we shuld make a shot type that has huge spread and 400 dps that homes in on all enemies and kills them b4 they shute bulelts, that wuld be awsum fun game and ttly balenced
Marisa C in MoF is pretty much this. :D
« Last Edit: May 21, 2010, 02:20:30 AM by Fox Fanatic »

My SA Lunatic 1cc was with ReimuC, one of the worst shots in the game, which goes against your argument entirely.

Oh I missed this entirely. This actually proves how oblivious you are and actually supports my argument. The easiest shot type to 1cc SA with is Reimu C, by a hefty margin.
"hurr hurr but you said Reimu A was da best"

Formless God

Am I the only person who doesn't like PCB?...
Hello.

P.S. MoF!MarisaC and SA!Marisa make the games unwinnable. Probably the hitbox and the gimmicks.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2010, 05:06:51 AM by Formless God »