Author Topic: Non-keyboard users, your layouts?  (Read 3507 times)

Non-keyboard users, your layouts?
« on: May 14, 2010, 12:15:06 AM »
I normally use a stick when playing, my preferred layout is, using the top row: Shot, Bomb, Focus.

But lately one of the buttons has been randomly going out, so I've been using a PS2 pad and it's not as bad as I thought. I'm currently using X as shot, square as bomb and R1 as shot.

So what layouts do you all prefer?

Barrakketh

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Re: Non-keyboard users, your layouts?
« Reply #1 on: May 14, 2010, 12:44:09 AM »
FYI, the buttons should be easy to replace.  Almost all retail sticks use snap-in buttons with quick-disconnects on them, so removing them is just a matter of pulling them off, squeezing the pieces of plastic on both sides that hold it in place and push it out of the panel.  If you bought an entry-level stick they almost always use knock-off parts based on the Sanwa OBSF-30, though if it's a smaller button like those usually used for start/select that would be the OBSF-24.  If you'd rather replace it with a button that screws on (has a nut on the bottom side) you want the OBSN model.  If you like resting your fingers on the buttons and find them too sensitive, consider Seimitsu's buttons.  They offer more resistance (but a bit less travel) and have a concave plunger.  You're looking at < $3/button.

As for me, when I'm sitting in my chair and playing with the stick in my lap () I use the bottom-left button and two top-left buttons buttons with my fingers lightly resting on them.  My fingers aren't as spread apart that way on a Viewlix button layout. Bottom-left button is shot, top-left is focus, the remaining button is bomb. When I'm playing other games I use a different hand position.
Cheating? I cannot even wrap my head around the point of it. Wouldn't you know you had cheated? How on Earth could you maintain crisp certainty of your superiority to all others? And if you're unable to do that, what's the point of anything?

Re: Non-keyboard users, your layouts?
« Reply #2 on: May 14, 2010, 02:35:04 AM »
I sometimes play with an xbox 360 controller

focus-left trigger

shoot-A

bomb-B

it's worked fine and often i notice myself doing better with a controller rather than a keyboard

Re: Non-keyboard users, your layouts?
« Reply #3 on: May 14, 2010, 05:32:28 AM »
FYI, the buttons should be easy to replace.  Almost all retail sticks use snap-in buttons with quick-disconnects on them, so removing them is just a matter of pulling them off, squeezing the pieces of plastic on both sides that hold it in place and push it out of the panel.  If you bought an entry-level stick they almost always use knock-off parts based on the Sanwa OBSF-30, though if it's a smaller button like those usually used for start/select that would be the OBSF-24.  If you'd rather replace it with a button that screws on (has a nut on the bottom side) you want the OBSN model.  If you like resting your fingers on the buttons and find them too sensitive, consider Seimitsu's buttons.  They offer more resistance (but a bit less travel) and have a concave plunger.  You're looking at < $3/button.

Just FYI, I already know this stuff, I've been a fighting game player for about 7 years now. I appreciate the effort though and it's pretty cool to see that there are people on here that know this stuff.

At the moment I just don't have the money, gonna build a completely new one anyways. Probably with an LS-32 and PS-14-G buttons.

AM

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Re: Non-keyboard users, your layouts?
« Reply #4 on: May 14, 2010, 06:18:31 AM »
When I played with PS style pad I used the following setup:
D-pad - movement (of course)
Square - fire
L2 - Focus
R2 - Bomb

Conveniently all movement controls are on the left side and fire controls on the right side. You might wan't to use X for fire and R1/L1 instead of R2/L2 if you have small hands.

Jaimers

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Re: Non-keyboard users, your layouts?
« Reply #5 on: May 14, 2010, 10:27:44 AM »
I use a gamepad similar to a playstation controller so I'm using that as a reference here:
D-pad for movement (what else? ???)
X for shoot.
Square for focus
Circle for bomb

So pretty much the same layout as a keyboard.
I've been toying with the idea of putting bomb on R1 or R2 because it's a more direct reachable point, but that is really hard to relearn at this point. (reflexes always go for circle)

Re: Non-keyboard users, your layouts?
« Reply #6 on: May 14, 2010, 10:47:57 AM »
Logitech PS-styled controller.


Square - Shoot
X - Focus
Circle - Bomb


This layout is pretty much branded into my head by now.  Relearning is going to be really tough.

Krimmydoodle

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Re: Non-keyboard users, your layouts?
« Reply #7 on: May 14, 2010, 11:04:04 AM »
I use a gamepad similar to a playstation controller so I'm using that as a reference here:
D-pad for movement (what else? ???)
X for shoot.
Square for focus
Circle for bomb

So pretty much the same layout as a keyboard.
I've been toying with the idea of
putting bomb on R1 or R2 because it's a more direct reachable point, but that is really hard to relearn at this point. (reflexes always go for circle)

We think alike.  I use the non-strikethrough part of your setup, except with the corresponding buttons on a 360 controller, and its analog stick because its d-pad is a piece of shit.  I did use something with a usable d-pad at first, but it was a cheap controller and its d-pad snapped off early on in my Touhou career.  I ended up buying a wired 360 controller since it would for both PC and console, and while the analog stick was a bit odd to get the feel of at first, three weeks off school and playing Touhou nonstop quickly fixed that.

Oddly enough, while I have bomb set on R, I might actually be better off switching it with circle/B/whatever you want to call that button depending on what controller you use.  That first pad with the broken d-pad didn't have a good "start" button, so I initially mapped pause to that button instead, and it's become my learned reflex for pausing.  As a result of trying to do silly perfect runs, where there's no bombing and a ridiculous amount of restarts, I've developed a highly-trained deathpausing reflex to restart my failed runs as quickly as possible.  Maybe I'd actually be able to 1cc UFO with Marisa B if I swapped those buttons around so I'd have a better deathbombing reflex than deathpausing reflex.
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Sapz

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Re: Non-keyboard users, your layouts?
« Reply #8 on: May 14, 2010, 02:30:03 PM »
Well, I currently use a keyboard, but there are shmups I play on the 360 with the gamepad and I imagine the layout I use for that would work well enough for Touhou.

D-pad for movement (Krim I cannot understand how you would find the analog stick better @_@)
Right trigger for autofire/unfocused fire
X for hold fire/focus
A for bomb.

This works pretty well since I can for the most part just hold down the right trigger the whole time and just press X whenever I need to move slowly/lock on/do whatever. Usually these situations are where I'm likely to bomb since I'd be slowing down for the denser patterns, and it's pretty easy to hit the A button since part of my thumb is already over that from holding down X, so it's just a matter of sliding the thumb back a bit.
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Sana

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Re: Non-keyboard users, your layouts?
« Reply #9 on: May 14, 2010, 02:40:06 PM »
When I use a PS2 pad, I use:
Left stick for move
X for shoot/focus
Square for bomb
R1 for manual focus
Deathbombs are easy when your thumb covers the shot and the bomb buttons at once! :V

When I use stick it's three top row buttons for shot, bomb and focus.

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Re: Non-keyboard users, your layouts?
« Reply #10 on: May 14, 2010, 06:39:22 PM »
I use a Super Nintendo controller, since I'm different. It actually works really well, and I love its D-Pad. B is shot, Y is bomb, and R is focus. I still do better with a keyboard, but the controller is really fun.

Re: Non-keyboard users, your layouts?
« Reply #11 on: May 17, 2010, 11:31:49 PM »
This is actually the trickiest part for me to determine. I've conjured over the idea of shoulder buttons "to stride" with my controllers for points where I absolutely cannot make a mistake as to left or right but I don't find the d-pad particularly lacking so it's unnecessary.

For controllers my current theory is that you want the base joint of your thumb handling constant actions  and the top of your thumb handling less frequent reactionary movements. This is in mostly because the top portion of your thumb is a further out extremity and has a wider range of motion but also because I think curling is more natural starting from base to extremity.

The D-pad is always movement. That's what it's for.

With a diamond layout using south to fire, west to shoot and north to bomb seems to work nicely. This is because you're always firing with the base of your thumb, a slight tip of the thumb focuses. Bombing seems kinda hard to pull off  because it requires a slight movement but having it in north position is better than south because when you hold out your palm, it's more natural for the thumb to move closer to the fingers than away from them. This means an upwards motion on the controller should be a little easier because it goes more towards my other fingers with a traditional grip.

If I'm using shoulder buttons L will usually be my bomb so each hand only has two responsibilities at any given time. Left hand bombs and moves, right hand focuses and shoots. Less often I'll set focus to R.

With a genesis six button layout I'm guessing perhaps you could position the hand at an other angle so your thumb lays across three buttons flat and use C to fire, B to focus and A to bomb. I haven't done this myself but it matches up with the extremity curl theory quite interestingly, although with my Nubytech controller the grip is rather noticeably tightened, so I'm not sure about the long term sustainability. I'll have to try it sometime.

With the joystick deciding is a bit simpler. Again it's obvious what you want to move with so you just have to decide upon the buttons. From left to right, focus, fire and bomb is the order they appear on the default layout on the keyboard, although I like to mirror it for use with my opposite hand. Which three buttons I use is a bit trickier to decide. I'm preferring the top row for whatever bizarre reason but the T.E. stick still gives you four buttons to choose from. The three on the left make use of the offset button while the three on the right are perfectly aligned. I'm using the right ones more often but the left isn't without appeal either. Either way the button hand eventually starts to hurt, same as with the keyboard and I'm not sure why this happens.

Also it's probably not something most consider but I prefer my pause button being on the top of the joystick as opposed to the back, since easier access means faster access which in turn means pausing is a less disruptive action. This'll usually make me use the button on the opposite polarity of my edge-most button. However on the PS3 edition of the stick, the home button works nicely for this purpose because it's out of the way and Windows doesn't know what to do with it. On the 360 edition the equivalent button has a reserved function as the identifier in Windows, which is rather actually a bit of a shame considering that this is the perfect spot for a miscellaneous action.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2010, 11:33:43 PM by Tonepoet »

Re: Non-keyboard users, your layouts?
« Reply #12 on: May 18, 2010, 12:37:05 AM »


On a pad, I used (with the 360 pad in mind (psx)) : shot on A (X) focus on X (square) and bomb on r1 or l1.

Related : I don't find the jlf that good for shmup (for fighting game tho it's pretty good), I'm at an inch to buy a ls-56 (seimitsu) just for that ... any thought ?

Re: Non-keyboard users, your layouts?
« Reply #13 on: May 18, 2010, 01:24:34 AM »
LS-56 is good, but the LS-32-01 is widely regarded at the best stick for shmups.

And despite Sanwa sticks being not so great for shmups, the buttons are godlike.

I had a stick with an LS-32 and Sanwa OBSF-30s and it was great, unfortunately that stick got lost during a move. :/

Barrakketh

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Re: Non-keyboard users, your layouts?
« Reply #14 on: May 18, 2010, 01:33:27 AM »
Related : I don't find the jlf that good for shmup (for fighting game tho it's pretty good), I'm at an inch to buy a ls-56 (seimitsu) just for that ... any thought ?
LS-56 has a shorter throw and engage than the LS-32, and also has an octogate available.  The pivot feels a bit "grindy" but that has no impact on anything, it just doesn't feel smooth for some reason.  It doesn't "pop up" if you hit it hard against the gate like the LS-32 will.  You'll need the MS mounting plate if you're putting it in a MadCatz fightstick, the stock VF plate won't work.

Another candidate when you're in a more experimental mood is the LS-40.  It's like a better made LS-32 but has the shortest throw and engage distances of any Seimitsu stick.
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Re: Non-keyboard users, your layouts?
« Reply #15 on: May 18, 2010, 01:33:58 AM »
Logitech PS-styled controller.


Square - Shoot
X - Focus
Circle - Bomb


This layout is pretty much branded into my head by now.  Relearning is going to be really tough.

That's what I started with, but 'Circle' was too far away for effective panicbombing. I moved bomb to 'X' and focus to R1 and I've used that ever since to good effect (cleared PCB Hard once, several Extras, most shot types on Normal).
There was something here once. Wonder what...

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Re: Non-keyboard users, your layouts?
« Reply #16 on: May 19, 2010, 02:43:23 AM »
I use a Super Nintendo controller, since I'm different. It actually works really well, and I love its D-Pad. B is shot, Y is bomb, and R is focus. I still do better with a keyboard, but the controller is really fun.

PS/2/3 controllers have similar button placements to a SNES controller, so it's not a big difference in that regard. That's all that's similar between the two, however.

I have a Logitech PS2 controller lookalike:

X (2): Shot
Square(1): Bomb
R1 (6): Focus
L1  (5): Skip
Start (10): Pause
D-Pad: Move

Pretty standard, for reasons given above: Thumb joint covers the constant action, thumb tip covers temporary actions, ect. D-Pads have more precision for 2D games than control sticks, so those are useless.
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Azure Lazuline

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Re: Non-keyboard users, your layouts?
« Reply #17 on: May 19, 2010, 03:46:15 AM »
PS/2/3 controllers have similar button placements to a SNES controller, so it's not a big difference in that regard. That's all that's similar between the two, however.
Yeah, but I personally hate the PS d-pad, since the hole in the middle and pointed edges tear up my thumb joint - it might just be a problem because of my small thumbs, though. I really like the feel of all the buttons and the layout is great, but I just dislike the d-pad. If I could somehow graft a Super Nintendo d-pad onto a PS2 controller, it would be the best thing ever, but I don't have the technical skill for something like that...

Barrakketh

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Re: Non-keyboard users, your layouts?
« Reply #18 on: May 19, 2010, 04:21:09 AM »
Yeah, but I personally hate the PS d-pad, since the hole in the middle and pointed edges tear up my thumb joint - it might just be a problem because of my small thumbs, though. I really like the feel of all the buttons and the layout is great, but I just dislike the d-pad. If I could somehow graft a Super Nintendo d-pad onto a PS2 controller, it would be the best thing ever, but I don't have the technical skill for something like that...
So you're looking for something more like this?



The button layout isn't the same, but the pad fits the bill.
Cheating? I cannot even wrap my head around the point of it. Wouldn't you know you had cheated? How on Earth could you maintain crisp certainty of your superiority to all others? And if you're unable to do that, what's the point of anything?