Dwarf Fortress Mafia: Game Over - Town Win

[Pesco]

Obvdderptown enough that you would never lynch him?

[Sodium]

Unless he stopped being obvderptown, or there is some really outlandish scenario, yeah.

[FinnKaenbyou]

Pesco, another point - this new case on Kefit came after several people had called out to Kilga to start posting genuine content. Was he in any position to do anything other than start an original case, given that hopping onto a bandwagon was likely to bring around even more scrutiny?

[Serela]

EBWOP: For what reason would you prefer me to NOT VIG Benny?

Zak jumps on Benny, Rou jumps on Benny, Zak supports Rou jumping on Benny and the Benny case in general.

I feel more like Zak was trying to lynch Benny then distance himself from a scumbuddy. As for Benny's own behavior, MSB pretty much covered that.

[Pesco]

For Benny to answer when he gets back. What do you make of Sodium's adamant clear of you?

Cut: Did he start a well argued case or a bad one at the time? Keep in mind the information present during that context. I believe he's capable enough of taking any action, starting and driving a town wagon is not worth the risk when derpMotKTown can do it for scum.

[FinnKaenbyou]

derpMotKTown is also likely to vote Kilga on the basis of 'he's not leading Town like he usually is!', so the sword swings both ways.

Either way, this discussion is trailing on. Let's let Kilga himself come to his defense.

[LHCling]

Good lord so many pages. I do hope for my sake that it's full of EBWOPs / one-liners or I'm going to be reading for many, many hours.

Laundry takes priority over this game, so I'll commence reading when the new hour starts.

[Kilgamayan]

My ears are burnin'. You talkin' about me?

---

A couple of Roukan's points on me look like non-points; more semantics arguing than anything else. (A long as I'm thinking about it, huh what's defenses have also smacked of being semantics arguments, especially that whole list thing.) I don't even get what I'm being attacked with the differentiation on how to address ninja posts in 301, for example.

Why did I extend Zakeri more leeway than Kefit? Couple of reasons. First I've already mentioned; I was slightly less willing to consider Zakeri's scum due to the silly nature of the cases that had been brought toward him prior regarding needing Kefit to remind him to vote. Second is that I felt Kefit's case was worse and it came at a later time in the day (i.e. Kefit had more info to work with than Zakeri when forming a case). Zakeri's case wasn't great, sure, but it came sufficiently early in the day that I was willing to cut it a little slack.

Cowering away from making an opinion because it could slow down his reread is not Townie, and it's definitely not Town!Kilga.

I find it very interesting that you'd make this distinction given you later admonished Pesco for meta. (There's one of those tricky distinction wurgles again; "This sounds like a meta clear, and one I don't agree with." Sounds an awful lot like you're forwning on meta in general in addition to outright disagreeing with this particular instance of it.)

I was not saying that your staying on Zak was a point against you, I was just struggling to understand why Kilga said that you were good for it and then said me jumping late when the case had basically stopped being talked about makes me look worse. I'm holding to this - no-one had declared intent to switch to Zakeri, no-one had seemed more interested in voting Zakeri than who they were already following, Zak wasn't adding anything new to use as a case against him, and so moving to the Neo lynch instead makes perfect sense to me.

It's entirely possible you're town and made a mistake, but the fact remains that you moved off of a flipped scum that had a decent-size wagon onto someone that has not flipped. I think any townie is well within their rights to find this suspicious, and I don't know why you're bristling at it so much (especially since it very much comes off as an OMGUS). Flips are the most solid pieces of evidence we have to work with, after all.

Pesco, another point - this new case on Kefit came after several people had called out to Kilga to start posting genuine content. Was he in any position to do anything other than start an original case, given that hopping onto a bandwagon was likely to bring around even more scrutiny?

WIFOM argument. "Kilga avoided doing this scummy action, therefore he is probably scum." Don't try to tell me voting for someone that has existing votes isn't a scummy action; your hypothetical suggests it is, given you claim people would have jumped on me for it.

Outside of all of that, if I felt one of the people with an existing wagon was the scummiest, I would have voted for them. For all that this means right now.

---

Serela, please stop doing your level best to make me want to ignore the tentative town assessment I gave you at the beginning of the day. You've posted a deluge of words, now vote for someone. I wish Excal would drop a vote as well, but I think the tentative clear I give to him is stronger than the one I give to Serela (see below for more details), and at least he appears to have had less time to devote to the game.

Pesco, what is up with your Excal views? What changed about him after you pointed out that Zakeri was sitting on him at the end of the day* that made you decide he was a worthy vig candidate? You claim him to be likely town and then claim you "forgot he existed" 40 minutes later? What. And then you came to the same conclusion you came to before about him. Uh. I wouldn't be putting as much emphasis on this if you hadn't claimed dayvig, but you have, and I expect townies with killing powers to be far more attentive to the game so they don't hurt town by making uninformed decisions.

*Zakeri being on Excal is actually a very good reason to think Excal town, given Excal ended the day at 3 votes and sudden death was between two people that had 4, one of which has flipped town. Rat, Sodium, since both of you are currently voting Excal (Rat's vote isn't on the chart but it's totally there in his first post of Day 2), are you prepared to claim Zakeri was bussing him, and, if so, why?

No new posts from huh what and Benny make it hard for me to pursue those cases. Tears. ;_;

[Serela]

Serela, please stop doing your level best to make me want to ignore the tentative town assessment I gave you at the beginning of the day. You've posted a deluge of words, now vote for someone.

I think I've reached a good conclusion after Pesco FAKE VIG KILLING MINDHAX-shocked me and I actually started making sense. At this point, after my ISOs on several people, I believe either HW or MSB is scum. I'm not sure which one, wouldn't be terribly surprised if it's both.

...I don't know which to vote. It looks like Pesco might end up vig'ing one though, so that'll help solve that problem if he does. But until Pesco decides, I believe I'll go for ##Vote:huh what.

[Benny1]

Pesco: I have no idea how to respond to that statement.  This I think is probably the best way I can think of, and perhaps what you're looking for: No, MSB and I are not scumbuddies.  What are you trying to do?  Why are you trying to get me to defend myself when there are bigger targets right out in the open?  Are you trying to create an extreme situation where MSB might be suspicious of me?

huh what: In response to , my suspicion just came from the fact that your vote on Pesco seems quite similar to mine, if not identical.  However, I've not investigated more so I am not holding this against you yet, I haven't had time to do so.

I am still not feeling MSB, and I'm not feeling Excal, but I haven't done a reread, and I still don't like Pesco, and I'm going to be investigating huh what.  If my headache goes away I will reread tonight, if not, tomorrow's the day.

Cut by Kilga: Sorry D:  In general I don't really know how to defend it any further, since you seem to just disagree with the way I felt with Zakeri, and if you didn't notice from the post you're attacking me about, I actually WAS placing names on the table that I wasn't overly suspicious of, but I was trying to address all of the names that had been bandwagoned and such that day.  I did continue to scumhunt and mentioned that I feel Pesco is scummy and Kefit is acting bizzare, perhaps scummy, perhaps not.

[Benny1]

EBWOP: Well, it sucks that we can't edit posts, sorry about that.

The link was supposed to be #281

[FinnKaenbyou]

(Command Mission spoilers)

Spoiler:

I thought Spider/Redips was the Big Bad...

Responding in order to Kilga.

- Your definition of 'cut it a little slack' is worth noting. Giving it a passing mention is what I would call cutting it a little slack, not disregarding it entirely and spending all your time on Kefit instead.
- Pesco's meta clear came based on no real evidence, mainly because I've never seen you back off notably as scum because derpMotKTown would call you out on not being awesome. The intention was not to argue that you were scummy for pursuing your own case - the intention was to argue that Pesco's 'but he said something new so he probably isn't scummy' is a nulltell because I don't see it as something out-of-character for you whatever your affiliation.
- I'd have thought that scum wouldn't spend half a day bussing their teammate on Day 1 when there were other targets like Pesco and Kefit readily available, but I'm willing to concede that's probably WIFOM. I'll second the 'flips are the most solid piece of evidence' point, mainly because my case on you revolves around you ignoring a flipped scum entirely.
Here, also, we have a paradox - on one hand you hold me responsible for not being on a decent-sized wagon on a flipped scum, but at the same time the wagon was apparently not sizable enough to be worth a comment from you. You've had your cake, Kilga, now stop eating it.
- The point I was making here was, again, that you introducing the case on Kefit was a nulltell, not that it was scummy.

The bolded/italic point in particular caught my eye in this. Vote stays.

Amazingly, I'd have to agree with Neo in terms of Benny. I don't see Scum!Zak bussing his partner so hard D1, and really most of his screwups probably still fall in the range of derpTown.

[Benny1]

In fact, it just hit me, Pesco.

Why on God's green Earth are you considering day vigging me when the majority of the people in this game have placed me as obvderptown?

Anti-town much?  Seriously, what are you doing?

[Carthrat]

@Kilga: Given that Excal vanished for an age during d1 it would not surprise me in the least if a buddy was on his case, particularly if he was able to foreshadow his disappearance. Also note that Excal's early vote on Zak that day was quickly rescinded and would've been a bus itself if I'm correct. Zak also only voted him to 2 originally and may not have expected the case to take off like that. The other main trains are Kefit/Pesco and people did seem far more focused on them in general. My case on him is rather unexciting, but I remain steadfast as I feel he's kinda just slipping by (and mixing in his own little 'here I am, status report!' post amongst things like Serela's wall'o'nothing and the like is only making me edgier about him.)

[Sodium]

Roukanken:

Spoiler:

Yeah, Redips was the evil mastermind. Spider was still a pretty cool guy though. This has nothing to do with the game, so yeah, let's stop talking about this

(MMX:CM Double Spoilers)


Benny:  Doesn't work that way. Just because the majority of town thinks something doesn't mean everyone does, and difference in opinion is not really scummy.


See no Excal poast. Vote is staying. Zakeri voting him at the end of Day 1 is rather improbable, but it's possible, especially with daytalk. Even if they didn't have daytalk to plan it, Zak could've spontaneously just done it as a way to get pressure off himself. It's easier to bus your buddy than to vote an innocent townie.


No HW post either.


I find the Kilga case largely uninteresting. Partly because one of the main points against Kilga is similar to a point against me, and partly because the FAV fightan stuff is also something I disagree with.(sup RWoS Unesco).


Baity: Well, there were a series of 10ish posts maybe that were one/two liners.

[Kilgamayan]

Benny: Hmm. Pointing out your Kefit commentary does give me pause, I'll admit. I guess this knocks my suspicions of you down a peg or two.

Roukan: I guess I then have to ask when I've ever commented on everything that happens on Day 1. I can only really describe my approach to Zakeri as thus: I saw people making dumb arguments against him earlier so I brushed him aside as a potential candidate for my vote for the rest of the day barring him doing something blatantly scummy (because I think townies tend to get hit more with dumb arguments than scum). I tend to do this sort of thing on Day 1 because it's Day 1 and I have a hard time caring enough to look at absolutely everyone and try to make a town-or-scum call on them. Evidently I goofed in this case. Oh well, live and learn, there are other scum to hunt and now I have three flips and a bunch of trains with which to do it so I'm going to care more.

Rat: I'm not so sure a disappearing buddy is the best target for a D1 bus, but I guess that might just be a fundamental difference in our bussing philosophies. I personally would rather have a buddy around that's going to defend themselves if I'm going to bus them because the resulting slapfight is far more likely to reflect well on me than simply snagging a super-lurker, which takes almost no effort at all. The point of bussing is to gain town cred, not simply throw a teammate away.

You are right about Excal voting Zakeri being a bus but that happened early enough in the day that I don't really care about it.

[Benny1]

Benny:  Doesn't work that way. Just because the majority of town thinks something doesn't mean everyone does, and difference in opinion is not really scummy.

Even if he's telling people to give reasons for him not to dayvig me?  Just curious, since that seems well, seriously more serious than just having a difference in opinion.  If it's not, I guess I'll let it rest, it seems Pesco's play style is always going to be anti-town, and I guess it's just easier for me to pick up anti-town since I'm new, and not scummy.

[Serp]

VOTE COUNT  -  Hey This Job is Pretty Easy Edition

Kilgamayan (2):  FAV, Roukanken
huh what (2):  Kilgamayan, NeoSerela
Excal (2):  MSB, Carthrat
MSB (1):  Roukanken, huh what

Not Voting (4):  Pesco, Baity, Excal, Benny

Six votes are required to hammer.  About 45.5 hours remain in the day.

[Kilgamayan]

Man, and here I was hoping Rat drew some form of voteless again

[Pesco]

Benny: The reason you deserve to be vigged is because you're more derp than obv, which is far more anti-town than I can be. You're being massively overdefensive and still have done no noticeable scumhunting.

The read on Excal has been back and forth since the beginning and looking at Zak's voting via Occam's I think it lends probability to Excal being town. If he's scum, catch him another day.

Now, if we can't get someone up for being shot within the next 24 hours, I'm letting the RNG decide. Fuck this ApatheticTown.

[Kilgamayan]

Put my vote in for shooting huh what since that's where my game vote currently sits and you've expressed interest in shooting him.

[GMOFucker: Makin' GMOs To Fuck 'Em]

:effort:
Whatever, this is better than nothing I guess.

Sodium:
I don't see how that's encouraging lurkervoting at all, but whatever. It seems more like Baity was prodding lurkers than asking for opinions. Also why did you cling on to his case for so long when he hadn't done much of note after you originally claimed to be suspicious of him?

I missed the part where you were waiting for Serela to post. My bad.

I have no idea what the hell you mean here. Why would scumMe want to distance away from a wagon that would flip scum?

Because then if you had made a stance about it there was a chance it could be used against you later if he died. You only actually said a sentence about it after it was beginning to lose steam and you never even elaborated on it.

I don't see how I copied Rou that much, and in the places I did I tried to add a bit more than he did in his post, but meh.


Serela, why are you voting me? You never actually said why you think I'm worse than Sodium even though he was your other choice. Elaborate. Also, regarding your iso on me:

Threatens to vote Kilga if he doesn't get serious. Attacks Excal and Sodium, and gets on the Kefit case; attacking Excal and voting Kefit are both actions that make me think "scum" right now. The attack on Sodium, I'm not sure what to do with that, though. HW pokes Alice.

This is mainly misreps. When did I say I was going to vote Kilga (aside from that one jokepost, which was, uh, a joke)? When did I attack Excal? Also don't recall poking Alice either.

Oh wait

Next, HW goes after pretty much everyone who's posted more then the first few jokevotes

ffs Serela. Just because I'm asking somebody a question about their post doesn't mean I'm actually attacking them for it.


I'm up for a Sodium vig. Currently reading Benny as town, don't want him vigged. Don't want myself vigged either of course.

[Kilgamayan]

Changed my mind. I've unapproved the entire conversation for the time being. Benny will still be able to see it, but there isn't a whole lot I can do about that.

Benny, Baity, anyone else that happened to see what just went by, please do your best to refrain from commenting. Serp, get in touch with either myself or Benny or maybe Edible (whoever happens to be around when you see this) so you can be filled in and decide what you want to do.

Everyone else, business as usual.

[?lice Bl?ckb?rn]

Changed my mind. I've unapproved the entire conversation for the time being. Benny will still be able to see it, but there isn't a whole lot I can do about that.

Benny, Baity, anyone else that happened to see what just went by, please do your best to refrain from commenting. Serp, get in touch with either myself or Benny or maybe Edible (whoever happens to be around when you see this) so you can be filled in and decide what you want to do.

Everyone else, business as usual.

I will be around for the entire day and can fill Serp in on the issue (I also have limited moderation capabilities for this board, thus letting me actually show Serp the relevant conversation).

Everyone else, in the infamous words of an infinite amount of slashdot trolls banging on an infinite amount of keyboards, "nothing to see here, please move along".

[Excal]

Holy cow!  I am actually caught up!

Of course, this is just the first reading, with other stuff to catch up on assuredly when all's said and done.  So, yeah.  I'll also give you all a heads up that I'm going to be out of the house most of Sunday, but will be here Monday in order to have a...  better opinion, if not a proper one.

Since some people seem to have had some issue with my lack of reasoning for my Kefit vote.  Here it is.  Rat/Kilga had already said anything I could think of to say.  I could have repeated them, or I could have said what I did.  I rather think of it as not wasting everyone's time to pad my post size than as lazy.

Anyways, some thoughts.

On the vast masses of folks, I don't have much more than vague impressions, at least not yet.  Pesco has the strongest one since I've been trying to get a bead on him, and am generally positive at the moment, even without the roleclaim stuff.  Though, the roleclaim itself leaves me unimpressed.

NeoSerenla, slightly better idea of why people are on you, but will be one of the first people I give a strong reread to.  Don't buy the softclaim though, since any Scum worth their salt would claim town if the Mod hadn't stepped in and killed them, and there was more than enough time to prevent that from being a reaction.

Rat and Roukanken look decent right now.  Probably the strongest of the people I have decent feels for at the moment. 

Kilga has something off about him.  Wish I could say what, but it's just a itch in the back of my head.  Will also get a strong reread when I have time.

FAV, most of her stuff is good, but I find that she's definately striking me the wrong way with her dialogue with Kilga.  Just the repeated harping on the "misrepresentation" which feels out of proportion to the crime.  One of the hallmark features of her middle of day 1 posts are her harping about this.  Main reason she's not at the top was sitting on Zak all day, even when he was almost in a position to shift into a primary lynch.

Hmm...  giving it some thought, I think I'm going to toss a tentative vote on Serela.  Not a strong read on 'em, but...  I think the going for a modkill candidate over personal survival (hell, also avoiding survival in sudden death (though, this could just be DL meta sneaking in here stating saving your skin in sudden death is pure null tell)) is good enough for a tiebreak here.

##Vote: NeoSerela

[LHCling]

Kilga, bofh, et al.: ...very well.

Yeah, um... I kinda destroyed my V1 post by accidentally clicking a link which led to a new page. Hitting 'Back' didn't return my text so  :<
I thought I had a backup saved to my Paste but I didn't; I had a bunch of moonrunes which read 'optical camouflage'. Going to try and keep this short, seeing as I'm essentially writing down what I had previously.

Being 'stopped' twice probably reduced the strength of this post as well, seeing as I lost motivation for writing this very post with those two instances combined. Hopefully, it flows.

First off, Rou's ISO and case on Kilga... seems biased.
I'm seeing plenty of :derp: coming from NS; which can swing all 3 directions (that's Town, Scum and SK for the people who are a bit slow-minded). However, why (plan to) do an ISO on Kilga? Why Carth? If I'm thinking right, you're picking people at... random. That's for ED1, where Random-chan frolics around in the sunflower field known as RVS. Self-Doubting your initial opinions (reads on other people) and opting for whatever somebody else says doesn't really help, as it adds to your image of indecisiveness (which has been raised... quite a number of times now I believe). Indecisiveness is a bad thing.

In the previous version of this post, I believe I also had some very specific points worth mentioning. However, I for the life of my cannot remember what they are, to the point of not being able to go back and even linking to them. That and Demotivation++ isn't really helping.

323. >I think either huhwhat or MSB are scum. I don't know which.
Hm. I don't like the word choice. You'll understand why after the question. NS, Answer for me: If either one of the two above mentioned flips scum, does this automatically clear the other person? y/n

Even though this was technically directed at Makai's Scamming Booth, this sticks out too much for me to even ignore.

It seems more like Baity was prodding lurkers than asking for opinions.

Yeah no. I'm not seeing how you're getting this. Behold! My 93 (again)! I assure you that it quite clearly says (well, in the midst of strikeouts and all but still):
>I would like their opinion
To answer, yes I was prodding lurkers. But why would I prod lurkers? For their opinions of course! Or are you one of the people who think that I would prod lurkers without making them voice their opinion? Isn't that a bit... counter-intuitive? Following the latter, it would be lurkers get prodded, they respond without voicing an opinion. Poking lurkers to make them do active lurking as opposed to 'passive' isn't exactly a great move, wouldn't you agree? So yeah, I'll state it again:
>why would [Baity] prod lurkers? For their opinions of course!

...the rest you're on your own, you Scamming Booth  :V

Hm. Based on the second-to-end-of-D1 votecount and since Kefit flipped town, I can make a very safe assumption that there is at least 1 Non-Townie on that "train". Alice flipped, so he's out of the question. I have a strong belief that Excal is Townie at this point, based on the way D1 played out (I believe various people have mentioned this before), though there's this strange feeling at the back of my neck as I type this. This leaves two people; Kilga and HW. Which one?

Well, I like the way things are unfolding against HW at the moment, so
##Vote: HW

This would've been NS, but VigDrama^TM.
Cut by Excal: ohai

Something disturbs me greatly about Pesco's ReactionFish^TM. Well, time will tell if Pesco holds true to his word and WillVig4Food^TM.

Double spacing is the new trend I see...


am i cool yet

[LHCling]

So much for trying to keep it short. Hm, oh well.

Also, 12 hours, FFFF-, etc.

[FinnKaenbyou]

Two things are putting me off my Kilga vote right now. One, he's answered pretty well to what I've asked him; I'm finding it more believable that Town!Kilga could miss the Zak case. Two, the ony other person pressing this case has taken a back-seat. FAV, speak up!

Zakeri voting him at the end of Day 1 is rather improbable, but it's possible, especially with daytalk. Even if they didn't have daytalk to plan it, Zak could've spontaneously just done it as a way to get pressure off himself. It's easier to bus your buddy than to vote an innocent townie.

I like how you yourself admit that the odds of it happening are slim, and then you try to argue it anyway. Town should be able to say 'yeah, it's unlikely, maybe I should look elsewhere unless I can find more evidence', but here you just say 'so what if it's unlikely? I wanna put my vote here!' This rings of scum laziness - 'I know my case is bad, but really Excal's as Townie as anyone I could vote for, so what's the point in voting someone else?'

##Unvote, Vote: MSB

[Pesco]

I'm sorry if I've looked at something I'm not supposed to see with the unapproved posts but I'm sure you can understand me putting my duties before the game.

HW is the current preferred target for being shot, is that correct?

Not much else to say since I'm very bothered by what the hell just happened.

[Sodium]

>Excal Case
>Finding Moar Evidence
>No posts for the longest while
oh u. Also, I still think that the there's still a reasonable chance that Zak could've been bussing.


Excal: Not exactly the question I asked, but that might've been me being a retard and wording it incorrectly the latest time I asked the question(post 325). Let's try that again. I want to know why you voted Kefit over Rou and Pesco.
Not really impressed with your post. You give some opinions, but they're mostly either positive feelings, or "Need a serious reread", which really doesn't say much. Who's scum, and why? 


HW: Why would it matter that I was still somewhat suspicious of Baity? Explain to me how that was scummy. 


Keeping vote on Excal, may move to HW, prefer HW vig.