Dwarf Fortress Mafia: Game Over - Town Win

[LHCling]

Warning - while you were typing 13 new replies have been posted. You may wish to review your post.

Yeah, what. Shows you how slow I'm going. To sum up this post, I didn't find anything to add after analyzing up to 140 (FAVs, see below for redirect), though there's a lot that I can say that I agree with. As a note, I did not bother putting it in because other people have already mentioned the points, and that would make this post much, much longer than it already is.

Up to 140, the Kefit case does indeed look solid. Pesco case I'm not too sure; there's a lot of instances where I just blanked out for a moment but people are in agreement there. I will, however, make a comment that I'm seeing a lot of meta-talk and I don't like that too much because it leads to bias and potentially, disasters when making judgments. Also, condensing format a bit more; call out if it becomes a pain to read. There might be parts that I might have glanced over but the thought of going back through it again is really daunting.
140. >Baity, why was that bit you quoted deserving of an FOS? What did you find scummy about it?
Let's jump back to it for a bit as reference (this just links back to 93). The reason why I found it (mildly mind you) suspicious is because Rou kept asking whether or not we were still in RVS or not. It gave off the impression that Rou was well, stalling / holding back a bit. And to answer a question that probably would be asked in the not-to-distant future, at this point I find Rou alright considering the content produced, sans the WW-voting that various people have mentioned. WW-voting can be a scumtell but I'm not exactly sure on how much of a tell it is. I do believe that it balances out at this point, so unFoS wait, 139. Ok, honestly I'm torn and I don't know whether or not this is deserving an unFoS, or retaining the FoS. In my opinion, I can agree with Rou's on that 1st half of that interpretation, but not the 2nd half as it seems to be pushing it a fair bit (as Kefit pointed out in defense in 145).

To add, I ended up missing out on the other weirdness because I'm a terrible player who can't find everything  :< didn't find anything as weird (Rou's) posts at the time.
155. First srs post yes, but all I wanted was analysis from people who haven't posted after RVS broke. The encouragement for others to vote... wasn't really intended but I was hoping that they were for the same reason. In other words, my vote was only intended as a pressure initially, a convenient cut gave me more reason to leave the vote on said person (HW) until said person put up their first srs post.

VOTE COUNT  -  You'll Get Them Twice Daily and Be Grateful Edition

yessir.

And caught up to my asdf post. The posts after it (save for my special cuts) I haven't read through yet so I'll have to go through those as well.

[Carthrat]

@Kilga: I vaugely remember that game? I have used AtE's at LYLO because seriously anything goes then if it's even remotely convincing, town or scum, heaven or hell etc. There are no rules then! Also I can't even remember who was who in Meme Mafia. Also please don't bring up that game, it is highly embarrassing to recall. <_<

Meta is generally bad as people can shake up their meta, it is extremely difficult to have a sensible argument over what constitutes the meta of a particular player, and it can allow people to get away with clearly scummy acts because they happen to have done them as town in the past.

Sometimes people play exactly the same way every single game and lynching them for it is folly however, e.g. alice, pesco, etc, and whilst I loathe meta instinctually if someone really is known for doing that shit all the time it is unlikely to be something I will lynch them for alone, unless it is taken to ludicrous proportions. However I see zero reason to try and introduce more of it into the game, particularly on players you do not know on the word of other players whom you cannot trust (and cannot be easily contradicted, either.) How can I say this... it's bad for town in general since it lowers the overall level of discourse and allows for a lot of stupid scum tricks.

<->

The problem I have with Kefit's explanation is that I cannot for the life of me see how he thought Benny's words didn't match his actions, but I cannot deny that this being his actual opinion should actually have been clear from reading his first post. I'm inclined to cut him a bit of slack now because whilst his opinion might have been flawed it's not really beneficial to anyone to make an obvious error like that, especially early game where anything goes and you don't really need to create convoluted explanations anyway. Basically it looks like a genuine mistake to me now. I'd pretty much read his later post without properly noting that had been part of his case the whole time. His defense has been about as solid as it gets so I'm gonna let him go today. It is indeed not a scumtell or anything to change your vote if you think it's bad, although it has been rightly pointed out that it doesn't obviate the actual issue.

However I think I'm wrong there. So.

##Unvote

I cannot say I'm comfortable at all with how Excal has played; intel-gathering fakevote on Benny is discomforting enough but I really don't like the way he tagged onto the Kefit train without really offering anything, or at least rephrasing it in his own words. It feels slightly off for him to criticize the stance taken by too-many people here on Pesco and then do functionally the same thing (no explanation for vote, amirite?) At the very least restating things shows you're thinking about it seriously, which I am just not getting from Excal this game.

##Vote: Excal so let us return to this. Pesco's latest post did not appear to contain anything horrifying even if I disagree now that Kefit should be lynched (the vote did indeed look somewhat omgusy), Zak however I am struggling to understand and would probably pick out of the other trains for a lynch at the moment.

[WHMZakeri]

Five ISOs at once. Hooray.

Kefit:

If you were concerned about Kilga "only" having three votes, then why didn't you place a fourth vote on Rat or Zak instead?

Here, it seems like Kefit is trying to prey on Benny. Kefit implies that Benny's intention is to get a quicklynch, regardless of who it happens to be on. This is where I was confused when I said Benny was obviously just quicklynching. Then he keeps his vote on Benny by saying that his reason for it was due to his intention being a quicklynch, but not voting with that intention in mind. Compared to everyone else who just voted him for having the intention to quicklynch alone. That reasoning doesn't work either though, since it still presupposes that Benny's intention was to quicklynch in the first place. Kefit's been spending a majority of his recent posts defending himself.

Excal: Almost every post he's made so far is just jumping on bandwagons. He starts the wagon on Benny, then later switches off onto me saying that the point of his vote on Benny was to be bad. This would be forgivable, and actually pretty awesome if he hadn't dropped his vote on me for jumping onto the Kefitwagon in post 134. My favorite part is when he says he's relieved to learn from Pesco that you don't need to put any reasons down for your vote, then proceeds to do so stating "Kilga and Carth already did, lol."

FAV: Aside from the off comments on Kilgamayan and Benny being town in post 140, most of her posts have been directly at attacking me or anyone who's defended me. I'm tempted to call her out on Tunneling. I would be very happy to see what she digs up in her promised reread in post 159.

Rou: Still see him as paranoid town. The only thing I see from him that's from ill intent is his 73, where he adds his own personal "Benny is quicklynching" claim in the form of putting words into benny's mouth. This happen right after Excal's post, so I'm giving Rou the benefit of a doubt here.

Pesco: Pesco is Pesco. I now miss all of the Pesco's Cat references. For how Pesco plays, relating how his cat feels might as well be what's actually happening.
In all srsbns though, I don't really get all of the Pesco hate as of late. I see a lot of complaints about how he doesn't provide reasoning for his actions, but they are there if you look at the natural flow of his voting. Maybe it's just something only I pick up on though due to bromanship, though.

In short, my three toppers on this list are FAV, Excal and Kefit. Kefit and Excel are in a league of their own though. I would rather vote Excal though, since Kefit is leading, has already had his hand forced by Kilga and Rat, and Excel needs to be prodded for an explanation now.

##Unvote: huh what
##Vote: Excal

Cut by more walls of text, including Carthrat's vote switch.
Geeze, Is there really enough information in this game to warrant this much babbling? Why did I have to do a huge PBP Analysis this early in the game? I mean, we're not even getting hairtetteringly close to day one deadline for crying out loud! I'm getting really pissed off at all of this. I woke up at 2:00 p.m. today, had to read through pages four and five just to respond, read page 5 again to respond with my defense, and then read this entire thread three times over AGAIN just to make this post. It is 1:30 a.m. now, and I've official wasted this entire day doing nothing but reading this topic over again. I'm starting to think this game isn't even worth it anymore and just let my lynch go through, and when you're making a townie want to give up on scumhunting, that is Anti-town, and that is what everyone is doing right now!

Seriously, everyone, comb over your posts, and if it isn't a valid and new opinion on who's scum or not, just leave it out of your post. Please.

[GMOFucker: Makin' GMOs To Fuck 'Em]

Almost every post he's made so far is just jumping on bandwagons. He starts the wagon on Benny

Uh, starting a wagon isn't really a wagon jump.

[?lice Bl?ckb?rn]

Okay, bit busy atm, but I will say this much so far: the Excal wagon is dumb, the reasons for it are dumb, and I will vote against it. Zakeri, voting for a competing wagon simply because one is "leading" is an awful reason to vote someone. I think that Excal's start and then awkward jump on+off of the Benny wagon is...well, if Benny is Scum it could be a tell, but if he's Town then it's certainly not even close to a Scumtell, and if anything, is the reverse. Him not rephrasing the Kefit case in his own words...I'm not sure how much I should hold that against him...that's something extremely easy to do for anyone of either alignment and isn't really all that useful for ascertaining your alignment anyway unless you do a colossally bad job at fucking it up.

@FallenV: yes, basically. Pesco's terrible irrespective of meta, Zakeri's terrible, but at least has meta that makes me less willing to vote him on Day One (note the specific clause there, this will certainly not carry over into D2, for instance!), and as for what Kefit did to become more terrible is that his case on Roukan seems to be rather awkward and forced - not only am I not seeing it, but there doesn't really seem to be much of a case there at all, and beyond that, he's posted surprisingly little in the thread since the infamous beginning-of-day Benny1 incident.

Pesco's still awful, though. Zakeri has somewhat improved with his latest post, though I hate his reasons for voting Excal over Kefit (or really, voting Excal at all - but I've already explained why I think that this wagon is complete bollocks). And to Baity/h_w/whoever suggested that there being 3 major D1 wagons means that Scum might try to quicklynch a Townie near the end of D1 - sure, let them. The major point of D1 is not so much the lynch - while we do still want to lynch Scum, for painfully obvious reasons, the most important bit of D1 is the wagons that we get on that day that we can later analyse. And Scum trying to frantically force through a Townie lynch near the end of D1 in a fairly awkward fashion is something that can be picked up fairly easy on the D2 wagonalysis. So yeah, I see no problem with the number of prominent D1 wagons, really.

[WHMZakeri]

Uh, starting a wagon isn't really a wagon jump.

Derp.
I was in the middle of editing that for conciseness and forgot to reword it properly.
He made the wagon start rolling by being the first to respond to Kefit. He didn't actually start by being the first to vote.

@Alice: The reason my vote landed on Excal instead of Kefit wasn't because Kefit's wagon was leading, but rather because Kefit's already said everything he could say about the case on him, while Excal hasn't said anything since post 134.

I'll admit that the awkward jump off of the Benny wagon is at the very least a null-tell as oppose to a scumtell, but the main thing I want clearified is why his reason for voting Kefit is literally just "What Kilgamayan and Carthrat said." Especially since he doesn't seem to mention a reason for why he stopped pursuing me. I'm left to presume he thought the case he had on me was bad, and just parked his vote in the nearest open parking space. I don't know what his meta is at all, but this reads to me like scum who drops cases because he knows the targets are town and doesn't want to argue them too hard.

[Carthrat]

@Alice: Benny's scum/town affiliation has nothing to do with Excal's vote actually, if he dives off it early instead of going for the fast d1 mislynch it is a pretty typical covering tactic, one easily instituted if he is feeling confident  and something he would have little reason not to be given the potential composition of most teams. I think it is not good either way, and the point is, that case was rather disingenuous, to say the least. To simply show up later and go "Yeah sure I agree with that there case" without reallllly adding anything after diving off? That's legit, now? Really? Where is the scumhunting?

I firmly believe everyone has their own interpretation of the game that differs from others, and to say otherwise and simply tag on is lazy at best, active lurking/scummy at worst, and this is nothing if not a game played by pessimists.

@Zak: If you think these are walls you've clearly forgotten the true horror of mafiya. Also see Alice on why your criteria for choosing between Excal/Kefit is not good. We do not vote for pointless reasons of pressure or 'fairness', but solely to lynch the most probable scum! Consider how many games where two people have looked bad but only one is scum? Where the townie there gets lynched, and the other case goes forgotten later? A reason such as the one you presented is the sort of thing that prods that unfortunate situation along.

Zakninja: repeat: is excal scummier than kefit y/n

[LHCling]

Some form of stupidly late EBWOP because I had lunch and was taking a small break and I only looked over it for FormatFail^TM:

139. Ok, honestly I'm torn and I don't know whether or not this is deserving an unFoS, or retaining the FoS. In my opinion, I can agree with Rou on the 1st half of Kefit's reply, but not the 2nd half as it seems to be pushing it a fair bit (as Kefit pointed out in defense in 145).

Relevant amendments in underline. So only the part with regard to KefKef. Hope that clarifies anything that I accidentally made really obscure.
Continuing my catchup.

[WHMZakeri]

If I make a decidedly single choice and am wrong, what changes between that and when I look into both cases and choose wrong anyway?

Well, Kefit's major crime is that he ended up misrepresenting Benny's intentions. He then continued to keep his vote on Benny while holding onto the misrep for as long as he could.

Excal's major crime however is being too lazy to scumhunt, and only just barely pretending he's still in the game. Jumping off the benny wagon may be a nulltell, it the way he tries to play it off as being too cool to let Benny's lynch slide doesn't help him. Claiming that actually increases ScumExcal's motivation for jumping off when he did. Plus, there's still the unexplained jump from the only bit of scumhunting he has claim to to just handing his vote over to the next forming bandwagon.

So yes, looking at the above paragraphs, I'd have to say I think Excal is scummier than Kefit right now, since Excal has more points against him.

[Pesco]

My cat mentioned that Neo is looking like Zengar in CB. ISO time.

Alice pretty much answered this; unless scum can't daytalk, Pesco doing such a thing as scum mentoring would be pretty "what". Even after considering that it's Pesco we're talking about.

Alice, remember that chat we had in the last postagme? Conspiracy theories are scummy. Neo has been an even worse offender than I have for fluffiness. Add in the unvote in this post with no clear stances on people.

And on the fence about Kefit. I'll see where that goes as time rolls around.

Don't want to vote Zakeri at the moment. Not really thinking Excal is worth voting for at this point. Pesco... I've got no idea how I'm really supposed to react to. And then it feels like MSB hasn't posted in a long time, but that might just be the WoTs getting to me.

Post of great fences. Tell us why you feel the way you do about each of these people. My cat just about called you 100% definite scum
for this post.

Right now, it looks like the lynch will go to Zakeri, Kefit, or Pesco. There certainly still could be a turn around, but I can't predict the next 18~ hours before I'm probably back.

Zakeri isn't looking great, but... my gut feeling is not to vote on him. Kefit doesn't look terrible to me, although not great either, and I don't know where I stand on him. Pesco looks the worst of the three to me, although I'm not used to his playing style in the first place. Still, out of those three... ##Vote:Pesco

Cool story. So why is your wagon-swing vote justified? I was tied with Kefit at 4, your vote makes me 5 and a clear leader.


Sodium appears to be not reading. My cat doesn't think you're scummy for that, but I disagree.

[LHCling]

Falling asleep for unknown reasons. Had dinner in between as well. Well, I might end up waking up earlier so I guess that's a good thing. I guess (re)reading is boring after all. I also spend a bit too much time on analyzing I think  :<

Also picked up on some GrammarFail^TM in my 180, pay it no mind. It's just missing a few words that make the sentences flow better. It still should make some sense. Should  :ohdear:
*scrapped analysis which looked terrible; 3-4 hours wasted man*

I don't see anything noteworthy in the ISOs themselves (that is, ISO analysis itself). However, I do see some rather flaky reasoning when looking at the more recent posts alongside the reason for the voteswap. I'll show it by PBP:

• 185 has Zak putting Kefit and Excal up high on the ScumTier^TM
• Zak justifies the vote on Excal with 3 reasons; 'balancing' wagons (i.e. not pushing one further), Kefit!Content already analyzed by Kilga and Carthrat, and pressuring a (potential?) lurker. I believe the second reason is valid. The other two, not so much.
• 'Retracts' the first reason, maintains the third when 'asked' by Alice. I'm saying 'retracts' because he suggested it as one of the reasons for voting in 185, but denies it afterward.
• Gets prompted by Carthrat, Zak affirms his vote, along with the reason of having "more points against (Excal)". This screams to me semantics regarding "quantity vs. quality" and I don't like that at all. Choosing something just because it has more points isn't exactly good reasoning especially given that the various reasons as to why each was scummy have different 'values' (i.e. the quality of a given point).

I was going to say that I'm convinced, but it might be a bit too absolute at this point (there might be something that I'm misrepping [damn you Kilga for making me now paranoid of my own actions] or I might've overlooked something). Regardless, this is what I'm seeing at the moment.

Pesco's latest is... interesting. Dare I say it, it actually looks valid.
Excal should probably definitely post before D1 concludes as mentioned by Zakeri, though I'm sure anybody could've pointed this out. By this point, it's well and truly over 24 hours.

bofh: Uh, MSB suggested D1 wagon and related stuff.

ps I am now imagining "derp" as a cute sound or sentence suffix used by a moe anime character.

Derp-moe~ <3
...Dammit Kefit  :<

[LHCling]

EBWOP:
>'Retracts' the first reason, maintains the third when 'asked' by Alice. I'm saying 'retracts' because he used it as one of the reasons for voting in 185, but denies it afterward.
Terrible word choice on my part there.

I think I'm also forgetting something, combing from 160 onwards to find it.

[LHCling]

Found it:

@Baity and FAV: I know my case on huh what is bad, but all cases based on RVS are bad. I just wanted to open up some more cases by that point rather than just continuing to bandwagon jump.

I don't really know how to respond to this. I can't exactly hold it against you that you wanted to open more cases. Your case was my choice because I saw something in it first and I simply took the initiative. Basically, yes a whim. Read it, something caught my eye and I went away with it. Yeah, I'm bad at explaining this; I don't think I can put it any better than that.

Considering an ISO of NS because it appears that I overlooked NS a bit too many times. Probably not now because I'm starting to feel tired. But a definite later.

[Serp]

VOTE COUNT  -  HARRY UP Edition

Pesco (4): MSB, Alice, Roukanken, huh what, Benny1, NeoSerela
Kefit (4): Roukanken, FAV, Kilgamayan, Carthrat, Excal, Pesco, huh what
Zakeri (3): FAV, NeoSerela, huh what, Pesco, Excal, Roukanken, Baity
Excal (2): Carthrat, NeoSerela, Zakeri
Roukanken (1):  MSB, Kefit
huh what (0): Baity, Benny1, Zakeri
Benny1 (0): Kefit, Excal, Zakeri, Roukanken, Pesco
Carthrat (0): Baity, Excal, Kilgamayan, Roukanken
Kilgamayan (0): Carthrat, FAV, Benny1
NeoSerela (0): Benny1
FAV (0): Kefit, Pesco, Kilgamayan
MSB (0): huh what

Eight votes are required to hammer.  Exactly eleven hours and zero minutes remain in the day.

[FinnKaenbyou]

Catchup Reread the Second:

Sodium's 'oh noez 3 lynch targets' is pointless speculation at the moment. In general he hasn't contributed much - a lot of his posting is just defense and he really doesn't bring much new to the discussion. A little late in the day to start a case against him, but I'm not very keen on him atm.

Baity seems to be chronically rushed in his rereads in that he never quite seems to keep up with discussion. By now he seems to have just about caught up, so he's not ringing any bells in particular with me.

Excal needs to post. Seriously, hanging back and doing nothing was not what I meant when I said acting 'stable' after your Bennytrolling.

Zak's ISOs add absolutely nothing new to discussion and throw in a gratuitous helping of AtE for good measure. In particular, your deep analysis of Pesco is 'Pesco is Pesco' is completely useless, and it's in a post where you yourself complain that people aren't offering new content.

Pesco 189 is just...argh. Firstly it's sort of late in the day to bring up another wagon, secondly you've done absolutely nothing to discuss the other big cases (i.e. Kefit, Zak, Excal), and thirdly I'm not seeing much reason to interpret these as scummy rather than just noobish. When he says 'you're scummiest', why is your instant reaction 'WHY DID YOU SWING VOTE ME'?

Zak > Pesco > Everyone Else for me atm.

[FallenAngelVI]

Alrighty, last major post. Pretty fed up of Day 1 at this point.

I'm disliking Kilga right now. His #142 case on me was comprised of misrep + accusing me of things that just plain aren?t scummy (see #159 for details; also his #168 admission). This is essentially the same thing that he accused Kefit of in #125 ("His entire Benny case is him trying to paint Benny in the worst possible light to the point of blatant misrep") and reminds me of my first game where he was scum. I'd have no qualms seeing him lynched today, but people think he's town for some reason. @ Pesco, Neo and anyone else who's voiced it that I may have missed; why is Kilga town?

Any further MS discussion should wait until postgame, but I'm talking about games with experienced players, not the inhabitants of the newbie forum. On Carth's AtE in WTC; it was #414 here. See also the first few lines of his #181 in this game.

@ Zak: The quoted stance in #162 only applies if I genuinely believe that you were looking for reactions. Being The Scummiest in my eyes as of #96 makes me disinclined to believe that was the purpose of your case; it feels like more of ad hoc excuse to absolve yourself from it. Your implicit tunnelling accusation in #182 is ??; see my recent posts (#140 and #159). Putting me as top 3 solely because I'm looking at you a lot doesn't make much sense either. You're one of my primary interests because... er, I find you scummy.

The problems with your recent vote-reasoning have been pointed out by Alice/Carth/Baity already. Nothing really NEW AND EXCITING in your recent posts. Plus points for sticking around, but I still want to lynch you.

The Kefit wagon is sending me in circles. On the one hand, I dislike his reaction to the early votes on him (specifically his unvote and reasoning in #135), I'm largely unimpressed by his Rou case and the fact that he singles Rou out for having his vote on an "easy target" while making no reference to my/Baity's votes, and his contribution levels seemed to have deteriorated as pressure's increased on him (#178 is basically fluff). On the other hand, it was started by Kilga. Hmm.

Looked over Rou. I'm not thrilled by his lurker vote in #100 and his explanation in #107, but he's kept solidly on Zak since #113 with points I agree with, particularly that penultimate paragraph in #139. Would not lynch him today.

Pesco is fairly bad in ISO. Attacking Zak for something non-scummy and then calling his actually scummy actions null makes me want to hax his mind. Periods of fluffiness and head-nodding along with Kilga's dodgy case on me in #146 without adding anything are bad. Not as flat-out awful as some people are saying, but I'd be fine with stringing him up if I couldn't get a Zak lynch.

Excal slapping down a 'me too' vote on the Kefit wagon and then disappearing isn't great. Still unconcerned by his Benny wagon stuff. Low on the preference list of viable-looking lynches today.

Conclusions from all of that: Zak > Kilga but unlikely to happen > Pesco > Kefit.

I have no inclination to comment on anyone else right now. Also not moving my vote, but I?ll be 'around' until about the last hour before deadline to switch if necessary.

[Kilgamayan]

So do you actually have anything to say about the Kefit case other than pointing out the obvious (who it was started by)? This is twice now you've failed to mention anything at all about the case other than yes, I produced it, and I didn't really need to know who produced it since, well, I produced it. What is good about it? What is bad about it? Tell us these things. If you are confused about the case, tell me what you are confused about so I can explain it further. If you disagree with the case, tell me what you disagree with so I can tell you why I think the way I do. If you agree with the case, tell me why so I can ask you why you choose Zakeri over Kefit.

[Benny1]

Unfortunately, I will probably not be around for the majority of the day, maybe I'll show up about an hour before the end of the day.

I am leaving my vote on Pesco for now.  His last post is... maybe content, but... even then, something feels off.  Something about the way in from that post, NS is definitely 100% scum..  Especially since his 100% scum call is for somebody being on the fence for reasons that yes, should have probably been justified, but have also been justified like 20x over.  It's to the point where everybody is being accused of just copying others because everybody has said so much for day 1.  Time will tell on this case, I guess, but I feel it is the greatest case to pursue today.

Honestly, that Pesco post just seems like a giant OMGUS.

[Kilgamayan]

Actually, I'm going to follow up on that post because I think I can see where this is going, and I want to cut it off at the pass (because Kefit might also be thinking along the same lines due to his legal background) to make sure we play the game properly.

In the courtroom, a witness' credibility is indeed important to determine the validity of their testimony. Someone who can answer all questions honestly, who appears to have no ulterior motives, and who generally is a good person is far more likely to have people listen to their account of what happened at a crime scene than a shifty individual that has a readily obvious ulterior motive for casting someone in a good or bad light. The credibility of a witness is important because they have ready access to memories of the crime scene, while the rest of the court does not. This is where Mafia differs; unlike in real life, where prosecution, defense and jury all only factor in after everything has happened, in Mafia everyone is watching the same crime scene as it unfolds. Suddenly, it matters far less whether you're listening to accusations from squeaky-clean townies or shifty-looking question marks, because you can just go back and check what they're referring to yourself! Everything I discussed regarding Kefit, for example, is all readily available for viewing by anyone that goes back to earlier in the topic and reads his posts themselves. Whether or not you agree with my interpretation of events is another matter entirely; what's important here is that you have ready access to everything I refer to, and you should be using it to judge the validity of my case, not your own personal opinion of me.

[Pesco]

My cat is wondering why nobody else sees the godawful replica of scum's play from the last game in Neo today.

You want to say I've brought nothing? The 5 posts before this one have brought nothing new with their IIoA-activelurk.

I'm okay with calling Kilga town because he hasn't done anything scummy. No flips, what water do you expect wrung from stones?

##Unvote
##Vote Neo

He's obvscum if you people would actually even look at his posts.

[Kilgamayan]

I will be honest and say I completely forgot Serela was even playing the game. Went back to look at his recent posts after your post just now, and I have to say that I agree. There's basically no meaningful content since his Excal vote several pages ago (and even the reasons for that were a bit dodgy, though that's more Excal's argument to make) and pretty much no actual justification for his vote, nor justification for why he picks Pesco over either of the other two options when he seems equally suspicious-but-indecisive on all of them.

I would be willing to vote Serela today, and I must ask everyone on the Pesco wagon why they would vote Pesco over Serela at this juncture given Serela is doing everything Pesco has been accused of except worse while Pesco has been actually contributing recently (example). Alice in particular I want to answer to this, given his earlier questioning toward my stance on Kefit over Pesco.

[Pesco]

My cat is so clever, it can even write


Greetings, I am Kith Eloltatek!  Y'know, that one cat that Pesco keeps talking about.  I've been sort of following the game, but you guys don't seem to understand kitten, so I have to have my slave Pesco translate for me.  Don't expect me to do this too often.  I have more important kitten things to deal with, such as sleeping, sitting in the sun and figuring how to kill that laser pointer light once and for all.

I also want to say that a lot of the words that Pesco claims are mine are not.  I was displeased about him using me to say stuff, so I turned his bed into my personal litterbox for the time being.  He seems to have stopped doing that since then.

I've come here to talk about Neo. Regarding newbies in general.  I realize that they generally won't play well.  That's to be expected.  I don't mind if newbies waffle, follow more experienced players, go "wah, I'm so confused ;____;" and various things like that.  That is, assuming they seem to really believe in what they're saying.  My newbie scum tell is more or less cognitive dissonance.

Okay, so regarding Neo.  I will have a BSOD moment if he flips town, seriously.  What first made me raise my eyebrow is that I forgot that he was playing.  The second was when I went over his posts and it reminded me of my Kitten4u's play from last game.  It's not exact, but it's close enough to make my kitten senses tingle.  Then I noticed stuff.  His Excal case wasn't particularly strong and it was somewhat parroty imo, but that doesn't bother me so much.  He's a newbie, he gets slack.  What bugged me was this:

My vote on Excal wasn't for him not scumhunting, but more of that he was placing votes on people using crappy-looking cases (Like Scum doing fake scumhunting, badly), one even consisting mostly of  "What Kefit said". Excal's posts from after I went to bed, though, have satisfied me... for now, at least. ##Unvote. Still gonna keep an eye on him.

Don't want to vote Zakeri at the moment. Not really thinking Excal is worth voting for at this point. Pesco... I've got no idea how I'm really supposed to react to. And then it feels like MSB hasn't posted in a long time, but that might just be the WoTs getting to me.

God dammit, I really don't like throwing a vote on someone I'm not feeling to be pretty scummy, purely for the sake of using my vote. So I'm going to keep thinking about this, and pay close attention to posts in the next 4 hours; since FINALLY, I've got a good bit of the day to be playing Mafia.

Zakeri isn't looking great, but... my gut feeling is not to vote on him.

Does this really sound like someone that's suspicious of those people?  Compare the last sentence of the second quote with Communication Breakdance Zengar.

---

And a few other things.

The initial raeson for voting for Zak was for fearmongering.  Not strong, but it was okay for a just coming out of RVS case.  There was no real reason to push it because it was a silly, weak ED1 case that should be abandoned for better cases once they come up.  MSB, why is it scummy that Pesco abandoned such a case?

Firstly it's sort of late in the day to bring up another wagon,

This is a silly accusation.  Ignoring that you did this as town yourself last game, time left in the day has nothing to do with someone's scumminess.  There was also enough time left in the day for a wagon shift if people thought the case was good.  If worst came to worst we/he could always revote Kefit (which Pesco has commented on before actually!  Even though we disagree here, Pesco still finds Kefit the scummiest out of the three) if it didn't look like a Neo wagon was going to happen.

[Serp]

Since I've been asked for the time of the deadline with respect to GMT, I'll just post it here.  Should be 11:45 pm GMT, which is four hours and forty-five minutes from this post.

Official vote count is as follows:

Pesco (4): MSB, Alice, Roukanken, huh what, Benny1, NeoSerela
Kefit (3): Roukanken, FAV, Kilgamayan, Carthrat, Excal, Pesco, huh what
Zakeri (3): FAV, NeoSerela, huh what, Pesco, Excal, Roukanken, Baity
Excal (2): Carthrat, NeoSerela, Zakeri
Roukanken (1):  MSB, Kefit
NeoSerela (1): Benny1, Pesco
huh what (0): Baity, Benny1, Zakeri
Benny1 (0): Kefit, Excal, Zakeri, Roukanken, Pesco
Carthrat (0): Baity, Excal, Kilgamayan, Roukanken
Kilgamayan (0): Carthrat, FAV, Benny1
FAV (0): Kefit, Pesco, Kilgamayan
MSB (0): huh what

[FinnKaenbyou]

While the legality of a Pesco/K4U hydra is questionable, the case is what we need to focus on.

Put simply, I don't like lynching newbies Day 1. I have memories of players as far back as Thomas in PoFV Mafia, who everyone agreed was obvscum but went on to flip Town. The forums where I learned the game were about as low-tier as Mafia games got, where 'Town' was more or less a synonym with 'brain-dead', and where the only people who ever produced cases that made sense were scum.

So...fine. I'll take off the rose tinted glasses and stop giving Neo the benefit of the doubt. Let's read over his posts a little more carefully.

First serious post. Declares Zak to be maybe Town but maybe scum, shifts onto Excal, agrees blindly with Pesco's meta read on Zak rather than doing it himself. Fluffy, weak, and a good bit of his case was stolen from Carth anyway.

Here Neo continues to offer no opinion whatsoever in terms of Zakeri, spends half his post defending the vote he then goes on to remove and do nothing with and once again offers nothing new.

Next, the self-proclaimed HOW DO I LYNCHED SCUM. Neo produces a list of suspicions/clears that he admits aren't based on reasoning, which brings around the question why is he posting it other than to look like he's contributing? Better still, the three players he declares suspicious (Pesco, Zak and Excal) he then declares to each not be worth voting. What the hell?

His last post declares Zak to not be worth voting because...no reason given, Kefit to not be worth voting because...no reason given, and Pesco to be the scummiest because...no reason given. Seriously, there's no effort to explain himself or give anything resembling good reasoning here.

Okay, you know what? Screw it. I should be around before the end of the day, so if this doesn't end up working out I'm going back to Zakeri (since he's the one in particular Neo seems to desperately be trying to avoid giving an opinion on). But for now I'm going to just go along with this because like I said earlier, being bad doesn't stop you from being scummy. Neo has gone to every effort possible to not give any opinion whatsoever.

##Unvote: Zakeri
##Vote: NeoSerela

As a final note: Kith, have you ever tried this?

[Serp]

While the legality of a Pesco/K4U hydra is questionable, the case is what we need to focus on.

To clarify, I was approached well before the game about letting Pesco and K4u hyrda, to which I agreed under the condition that only one be allowed to post.

[?lice Bl?ckb?rn]

Not exactly in a state to play mafia in right now due to various annoying IRL factors that will resolve by tomorrow morning, but I will try anyway.

Agreed that NeoSerela is horribad, for pretty much the same reasons as Pesco - there's a lot of garbage there, most notably...the absolutely baffling lack of voting multiple times for people he claims to be Scummy. That being said, this is downright bizarre...unless somehow ALL THREE of Excal, Kefit and Pesco are Scumbuddies with him, at least one of them is Town, and you'd think that Scum-Serela would be able to manage something as simple as even an awkward hop onto a Townie wagon. There's a lot of garbage there, but I'm not quite sure how much of it is "noob" and how much of it is "Scum". I'd be content with lynching him today but he's not my first priority right now.

Pesco! Has started contributing! Finally! And the contributions are somewhat decent at that - which makes me somewhat hesitant to lynch him right now. Especially considering that Kefit seems to have mysteriously vanished, which makes me like him even less right now.

@V: if the only reason you find the Kefit case to be bad is because Kilga started it, then, erm... well, the problem is that Kilga's alignment is still unknown as of now. And I actually believe him to be Town, principally because...I'm not seeing anything terribly Scummy from him. The exchange between him and you reads far more like mutual misunderstanding and playstyle differences than him trying to fling accusations at you blindly and get them to stick, and he's been remarkably impartial in general, as well as generally pointing out things that, for the most part, happen to be objectively bad in most people's posts. So other than Kilga, what reasons do you have to not vote Kefit? And if there are none, what makes him a lesser priority than Kilga/Pesco?

##Unvote
##Vote: Kefit

[Serp]

VOTE COUNT  -  End of the Beginning Edition

Kefit (4): Roukanken, FAV, Kilgamayan, Carthrat, Excal, Pesco, huh what, Alice
Pesco (3): MSB, Alice, Roukanken, huh what, Benny1, NeoSerela
Zakeri (2): FAV, NeoSerela, huh what, Pesco, Excal, Roukanken, Baity
Excal (2): Carthrat, NeoSerela, Zakeri
NeoSerela (2): Benny1, Pesco, Roukanken
Roukanken (1):  MSB, Kefit
huh what (0): Baity, Benny1, Zakeri
Benny1 (0): Kefit, Excal, Zakeri, Roukanken, Pesco
Carthrat (0): Baity, Excal, Kilgamayan, Roukanken
Kilgamayan (0): Carthrat, FAV, Benny1
FAV (0): Kefit, Pesco, Kilgamayan
MSB (0): huh what

Alright, I'm leaving for the lab now and I'll be back probably less than ten minutes before the deadline.  You have three hours and thirty-five minutes from this post left in the day.  After that time, any further vote changes will be invalid, unless there's a tie, in which case you'll be in sudden death, where the first vote change to put one or the other lead candidate ahead of the other will end the day.

[Sodium]

Yeah, back from school. currently reading new stuff. Will make a post.

[GMOFucker: Makin' GMOs To Fuck 'Em]

@ Alice: Uh, why are you voting Kefit? You never actually said why. Unless I'm blind.

Home from school, writing up a post. Consider this a challenge to see who can finish their back-from-school post first, Sodium

[Serela]

Make that three people back from school. And boy oh boy did I see this coming; I knew I'd be in deep water whether I used my vote or not. I didn't want to use it yet, partly because of absolutely nothing new to add on any of their cases w/o parroting, but A.Not voting=not good, and B.I might not have been back before deadline.

Now to defend myself, which I don't really think is possible to do very effectively. I bet MSB will be the first to post though, with that 10 minute headstart :derp: