Dwarf Fortress Mafia: Game Over - Town Win

[Kilgamayan]

holy toledo why are we already throwing around walls and game summaries on Page 4 please do not do this I want to reflexvote huh what on principle

Also kinda want to reflex vote everyone that said "I want to see Kilga post" or some variation thereof it has been EIGHT WHOLE HOURS since was last active it's not like I've gone away for half the day or anything and requesting my presences comes off as more useless helpful-townie-on-the-surface filler than anything else.

Just got home from THE OL' BALL GAME so I will need a few moments to catch up and see what has unfolded in my absence. Many of those moments may or may not be spend with my brand new Touhou plushiez so bear with me for a while

Pesco: I know who your cat is, please don't patronize me by chalking it up to flavor, that makes me sad

[GMOFucker: Makin' GMOs To Fuck 'Em]

Most of the comments would have been individual posts in response to the posts they were referring to if I was actually there at the time, but yeah I was kinda not there at the time and didn't realize how wally it was until I was about to post it.

[LHCling]

Feeling a bit better (soup does wonders against things like this~), so... starting from 101:

104. Voting to lynch somebody because of what happened in RVS is pretty... bad in my opinion.
>unless Huh what and Roukan were scumpartners or something like that
:scumpairconjecture: before flips.
Now, I believe that there were also other reasons in other posts by other people, but I won't bother linking back to them to keep this post as succinct as possible.
Addendum (from cut): An OMGUS can be a scumtell. Normally (well, in my experience) this would come after a flip. Well, now that the vote has changed (or should have changed; forgetting to unvote before you recast your vote, people?) the OMGUS point doesn't really hold water anymore.

In other words, Zak's case against HW is terrible because it's mainly ifs.
##Unvote
##Vote: Zakeri

Baity #93: text

First off, my 103 says that I made a mistake in the form of a timezone miscalculation. There's also a (unintentional most likely due to some obscure wording on my part) misrep I'm thinking stemming from my post with what I think appears to be coming from this line:
>"Any of these two would be fine in my opinion"
I wasn't referring to a lynch. I was merely referring to a pressure vote to get an analysis out of you (Or NS). I believe the term is a "prodvote".

There's a fair bit off with a number of Benny's post (as mentioned previously by various individuals who cut me before my first non-RVS post). Nothing particularly scummy though.

The term AbsoluteDefense^TM (ORIGINAL TERM DO N(ry )refers to trying to constantly defending yourself (against the points raised) as opposed to hm, ScumHunting? I thought it would've been slightly obvious from the name but oh well. And if you're going to ask, I'm not AbsDef going underway at this point, which is a good thing (because it means that he's ScumHunting).

Also, most of your post... didn't bring anything new to the table. The only really important part to me is the analysis that came after the responses to the individual posts. If you left it as is, I would've called you out on it for regurgitating oh so many points. Letting it slide because of the very last paragraph. Though, the Zak analysis you put there is almost exactly what I had in mind.
>Don't really like Baity deciding to just vote lurkers, but whatever.
Speaking of, why did you not call out other people for this? Or was it because of my lack of an "alternative" vote, seeing I only had an FoS prepared?
Hooray my vote moves oh so many times. I think this might be the last change unless I find something else after my reread tonight (which will be in quite a few hours).

Reviewing more later (Roukan will be of a higher priority seeing as I shouldn't leave that FoS alone or as a one-time). Catching up on work while I browse the forums; and no I can't study while analyzing posts. I tried before and the results weren't pretty for either "side".

...2 hours? Seriously? Damn man. Oh and Kilga needs to-*bang*

[GMOFucker: Makin' GMOs To Fuck 'Em]

Well, now that the vote has changed (or should have changed; forgetting to unvote before you recast your vote, people?)

:3c

##Unvote
##Vote DUMB WORDFILTER FELINE JERKFACE

[LHCling]

EBWOP:
>the OMGUS point doesn't really hold water anymore.

:|

[Kilgamayan]

Case on Benny is uninteresting, his actions are silly at worst, I do not see scummy intent behind them. (Also I kind of wish people would not use "retard" in this context, there's no need for that.) I would have expected ScumBenny to react to me with "not sure what Kilga's up to, but will watch him closely" or something equally non-committal which is very much not what he did. Go look back at Zengar's approach to Seniwac in Communication Breakdance and compare it to Benny's approach to me. Also kiiiiinda not liking Roukan for getting all uppity about the L-5 vs. L-4 thing, see Meme Mafia Day 1 for why this is not a scumtell.

Case on Pesco is slightly interesting I guess, most of his earlier actions are things I would chalk up to Pesco Being Pesco but I can't deny that they're also maneuvers that get commonly lumped in with scum (voting for no reason, bandwagon hopping, etc.). Certainly more interesting than the Benny case. However ED1 etc. not too keen on dropping a vote here when I think there are better targets.

Case on Zakeri is uninteresting, so he forgot to change his vote or something, who cares, scum and town alike could have a brain fart like that. If people are seriously positing that Zakeri was trying to cheerlead a Benny wagon while holding onto a joke vote then rofl.

FAV needs to let ED1 stuff go like srs.

---

So what case do I find interesting?

##Unvote: Carthrat
##Vote: Kefit

His entire Benny case is him trying to paint Benny in the worst possible light to the point of blatant misrep. The semi-loaded question regarding about choosing me over Rat or Zakeri in particular is setting off alarms. Why should Benny have cared to vote for Rat or Zakeri when he hadn't seen anything yet from them that he had deemed worth more than a passing mention? It was pretty obvious Benny was voting for scumminess first and wagon size second (if one thinks he was voting for wagon size at all) simply because he put his reasons for thinking me suspicious before his vote and only threw in the L-# count after the fact. Kefit also cites Benny's voting reasons as being founded in RVS as if that's a bad thing - at that point in the game, of course Benny was going to use RVS event reasons to vote for me, because RVS was all that had happened. Now, after Benny has properly explained everything, Kefit's vote has semi-morphed into being for pressure reasons. Stating that one's vote is for pressure immediately nulls all the pressure that could possibly come from it, because there's nothing to defend against (as there is no attack in the first place).

In addition to all this, look at the rest of Kefit's content. He pressed Zakeri regarding not following up with a vote, which anyone can do (and in fact I would expect to see from scum slightly more simply because of how easy and seemingly-pro-town it is), and after that, he makes a call for people in general to be more civil, a couple of calls to me and huh what to post more, and a call to Rat to explain Excal's playstyle. None of these are any more than filler; they are all incredibly obvious statements that anyone could make regardless of alignment and none of them are actually going to change anything meaningful. The only direction I can see the question for Rat going is using player meta on Excal, which no one should be doing, and it should be inherently obvious why the rest of what I've pointed out is unhelpful filler.

At this point, I believe Benny has explained his actions adequately, and the fact that Kefit seems to have ignored Benny's explanations despite the fact that they counter his case (which was a terrible case to begin with but that's not what I'm going for right now, the first major paragraph was spent discussing that) does not sit well with me in the slightest. I feel he is using the aforementioned pointless "pressure" reasoning to hide behind the fact that he does not actually have a legitimate reason to vote for Benny, and, in conjunction with all the other useless stuff he is done, it seems pretty obvious to me that he is active lurking, trying to coast his way through Day 1 via spouting hackneyed Mafia rhetoric and hanging onto a toothless vote for an easy target.

[Kilgamayan]

Also everyone that hasn't posted in the last hour needs to post more.

SEE HOW YOU LIKE IT ;_;

[GMOFucker: Makin' GMOs To Fuck 'Em]

Kilga really needs to make a serious post sometime soon, otherwise I'm voting him.

[Kilgamayan]

104. Voting to lynch somebody because of what happened in RVS is pretty... bad in my opinion.
>unless Huh what and Roukan were scumpartners or something like that
:scumpairconjecture: before flips.

Points off of you for this, this is also pretty blatant misrep of what Zakeri was saying and is a cherrypicked statement to boot.

[LHCling]

I was thinking about it for a moment (read: a whole 23 minutes) to figure out what you were trying to point at being a misrep. I think I know what now. It's those two statements put together which makes things sound a bit err... "off" (for lack of a better word; I'm drawing blanks at the moment), right? If this isn't what you're pointing at, mind showing me because I can't see it?

Also, what do you mean by
>and is a cherrypicked statement to boot ?
I don't hear the expression a lot (if ever), so... I'd like clarification of this as well if you wouldn't mind (as in, what do you mean by this?).

[Kilgamayan]

Cherrypicking a statement is when you remove it from its context and then respond to it as if it was its own independent thing. Usually, the response one provides does not hold when the cherrypicked statement is placed back into its original context. In this case, in the original context, it is fairly obvious that Zakeri was not trying to push or even seriously suggest Roukan and huh what are scumbuddies.

[Pesco]

My cat says you're still a nice guy. She doesn't really think you're creepy. Stop worrying about it, Kilga.

Screw y'all's WoTs. I'll respond when I'm at a PC and have consulted with my cat.

[Carthrat]

@Rou: Well. I think it is pointless to press lurkers on day 1 because they have yet to have enough rope to hang themselves with there. By 'press' I really mean doing what I did in the last game and going YOU HAVE BEEN LURKING TOO MUCH this game, VOTE, CONTRIBUTE OR DIE and then gleefully watching them fail, which tends to work better later rather than sooner. Hopefully in the future I will not mislynch the only lurker to respond properly, but it's a technique that needs some work, clearly.

I will acknowledge that Zak has no better reason for voting Benny than Excal did (and that it is arguably worse since he was late to that party), but don't find the lateness of his vote weird and DO find Excal's turnaround to hit Zak to warrant votage.

@Kefit: Excalmeta hahaha I can't even remember the last game I played with him. Also do not meta, see Kilga, etc.

I have reviewed Kilga's case on Kefit and have found it to my liking. The most telling point there is really the 'we should keep a pressure vote on Benny' thing, obviously if you are strongly considering backing off someone that means you should be looking elsewhere and not make fairly inane comments about so-called lurkers (who aren't) and queries relating to how flip someone is. Also request for ExcalMeta. There is also this-

What DOES bother me is that Benny pushed for quicklynch and then placed a vote that wouldn't accomplish this goal in the same post. His actions don't reflect his words.

I don't think this is actually what happened at all.

Kilga's bit of defense did seem a little bit big for day 1, well, lolvotes.  I figured he was just lollin' but man, changing your random votes so many times is pretty bizarre, I would think..

##Unvote
##Vote: Kilgamayan

I'm curious as to what will happen, since it's still day 1 and only 3 votes on Kilga now, need something to get something more serious going.

Also Pesco, yes, I'm not totally satisfied by your vote, though Zakeri's line was... odd, what are you trying to get out of Zakeri, anyways?

... Okay, who has been playing with the filters?

Benny's post in it's entirety. I am fairly certain it does not actually push for a quicklynch so much as 'a serious train', I do not see him espousing TURBOKILGADEATH in any real way. In fact he even outright said "I do not support the quicklynch" later, so why is this particular meme still being pushed?

I remain extremely wary of Excal for coming up with this idea in the first place but honestly it's like Kefit isn't reading the same post I am, and this is sufficient for a votechange now. ##Unvote, ##Vote: Kefit

[Excal]

Alright, got a basic read of what's gone down done.  So, some replies.

First reply is to this.

Admittedly, the reason on voting Zakeri isn't bad, but it's also exactly what Zak did last game, where he flipped Town. And according to Pesco, this seems to be average Zakeri play.

Serela, I'll lay this flat out.  This is, effectively, my first game here.  I did have that one game, but as a late game replacement which means I got almost nothing from it that stuck.  Especially since that was a lurkmoar and let Town hang themselves day.  So, outside of Kilga and Rat, I got no meta on you guys.  So if there's anything that all of you guys know, I won't.

Now, on to the more pressing concerns.  Rat, I'll be entirely honest.  My entire case on Benny was just trolling.  The RVS was going on longer than I liked, and I figured sticking a horrific case was a great way to help the game move past that so that I could get something worth going after.  I was pretty busy between that post and my post on Zakeri, and I made a very quick check in before leaving for the day.  But...  I was shocked to see five votes on Benny had already piled up, and I was gonna be gone for a good long time without the ability to watch things happen.  So, I snatched at the best case I could piece together in a few minutes (ie. from just those responces) in order to a) not be on such a godawful lynch if it did happen (doubtful, but...  not wanting to take chances), and b) hopefully move conversation both in more fruitful directions, but also towards folks more likely to be scum.

And now that I've said all that, I've got some folks to look at now that we've got a proper game going on.

(PS: Benny?  Newbie slack is essentially admitting that certain mistakes are more telling of bad/newbie play than they are of scum/town.  Lynching the people who make such mistakes may help them learn to play better, but it also tends to hurt town in the immeadiate game since if Town buys into that bit of bad logic, it's free days for Scum to survive)

Ninjas!  And edit to cover them.
dang, now I really need to double-check Kilga's case.  Sounds like good stuff.  Rat, hope what I've got to say helps ya find peace with me, though I won't shed any tears if it doesn't.  Also...  this Pesco's Cat stuff is really making me wonder why it is still getting time.  I'm almost tempted to start calling it active lurking because it's so much fluff that adds nothing and refuses to die.

[Excal]

Alright, reread done.

Pesco and Roukanken are really starting to bother me.  Rou for repeatedly saying the same thing over and over again forcefully, and generally not bringing much to the table.  But Pesco even more so because while it feels like Rou is at least looking for something, I can't help but shake the feeling that Pesco (and his hopefully not uncertain cat) still haven't left the joke phase.  I mean, hell, his best contribution so far is that he feels Zakeri is hunky dorey...  because.  Specifically, because of mindhax (I am assuming meta) and reasons he does not see fit to share with us.

Honestly, I'm pretty dang glad that you apparently don't have to give reasons about your opinions in this game, because that really makes thing easy.  I mean, why look stuff up when the only reason you need for why you know things is "I just do."

The only reason I'm not gonna jump right away is because it seems everyone else around here expects him to be this useless.  Who knows, maybe there's some point in it.  Besides, there's a better case right now.

##Unvote,  ##Vote: Kefit

I've honestly got nothing to add to this that Kilga and Rat haven't already said.  So, kudos to them for finding it, and I'll toss my lot in thataway.

[Kefit]

Kilga: Truth be told, I'm trying to break out of my lurker shell and contribute during the early stages of the game. And what do I get for that? I get called a useless sack of meat whose efforts have been worse than worthless. I'm really trying here, and I'm actually quite upset to be slammed with such strong rhetoric for it. Hell, I was actually pretty damn angry for a while, but I managed to calm down before trying to make out a post here. I'm tempted to leave out these last few sentences entirely, but I really need some way to vindicate my feelings about this and the methods I would generally use aren't available due to the nature of this game >_>

ANYWAY

Can someone explain to me why I shouldn't at least consider meta in my thought processes? I've generally found it to be a useful tool in some form or another, although definitely not determinative. My call for more information on Excal's playstyle (which was directed at all who had played with him in the past, not just Rat) was in the hopes that I could get another tool to use in my analysis throughout this game. It's fine and dandy if this is a piece of information that some of you consider useless, but I don't agree on that at this time. Does it really hurt to have more rather than less information available?

About the Benny case: I think Rat hit the nail on the head. I'm seeing something in Benny's post that others do not. This happens with me from time to time in various contexts, be it literature, movies, whatever. Generally, after reflection I realize that I am seeing something that's not there. I think this is one of those times. I'm essentially doing stringent word choice analysis on a colloquial post in a game played on an internet forum, which really doesn't make much sense. And yes, the rest of the case against Benny is bad, but those were never my reasons for voting in the first place.

##Unvote: Benny

So where does that leave us? Well, the quickwagon on Benny annoys the hell out of me, so lemme glance on the players that joined that:

First we've got Excal's scheme. I don't consider this inherently scummy, as I remember townies doing stuff like this back in the days of yore. I was hoping to get more information on play style to help me out with my thoughts here, but that does not seem to be forthcoming. Pesco seems to just be being Pesco. Despite playing in several games with this guy I have no idea how he operates and I have no idea why he gets way with what he does. Thus his vote becomes a nulltell, at least to me. I agree with those who say that Zak is dumb town; nothing new there.

This leaves me with Rou. He placed a vote on Benny for reasons that seem unclear. Was it because Benny fumbled over his words? I can't really tell. He hops off the wagon soon after it starts to derail (thanks to Excal's unvote), throws out some chaff about wanting to see more posts from some people (if it's chaff from me then it's chaff from him!) and then places a nonsensical vote on Rat. And his vote now stands on Zakeri - an "easy target," if I may borrow words from Kilga.

##Vote: Rou

I've also got major concerns about MSB's lack of contribution. He's only made a couple of short posts, both of which are almost entirely cheerleading. However, I dislike Rou's voting pattern a lot more than I dislike MSB's Pesco vote.

Cut: Oh dear, I must say that having Kilga, Rat, and Excal wagoning against me makes me just a little bit tense.

[?lice Bl?ckb?rn]

@Kefit: Meta is bad because, on its own, it's inherently unreliable, principally because one can change one's meta. Thus a player could play to his Town-meta when he is Scum and then laugh his ass off as any player who principally used meta is calling him a Townie instead of actually attempting to correctly figure out his alignment.

That being said, I'm not sure what my opinion on Kefit is. I actually agree with Kilga and Rat on the issue, and I find Kefit getting angry over what is somewhat a non-issue somewhat perplexing, and I find it weird that he considers Rou but not Pеsco in his post at all, but overall I have to say that his transgressions are still far, FAR less than Pеsco's.

Speaking of which, Pеsco, recall back in GWU when umu accused you of being a FluffyPillowFactoryPoaster? Those exact same accusations stand against you here right now. Post some actual content or at least shut up, you've posted more in the thread than most, while simultaneously saying less than most.

Agreed with Rat that LAL at this point in time is completely bafflingly dumb - it's barely 24 hours into Day freaking One. Zakeri voting h_w for "active lurking" after h_w giving that excuse is baffling, but sufficiently dumb and just "what" and not actually all that useful for lynching purposes makes me think that it's more just a derptastic(TM) mistake rather than a Scummy one. I still don't think he's as Townie as a lot of people think he is - his earlier mixup with the vote on Benny1 doesn't endear Zakeri to me in the slightest, and since then he's hardly gotten better, but considering he's done the exact same thing as Town in several other games on this site, I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt. For now. Provided that he improves, and fast.

[Serp]

VOTE COUNT  -  It's Getting Hot in Here Edition

Pesco (4): MSB, Alice, Roukanken, huh what, Benny1, huh what
Zakeri (3): FAV, NeoSerela, huh what, Pesco, Excal, Roukanken, Baity
Kefit (3): Roukanken, FAV, Kilgamayan, Carthrat, Excal
Benny1 (1): Kefit, Excal, Zakeri, Roukanken, Pesco
Roukanken (1):  MSB, Kefit
huh what (1): Baity, Benny1, Zakeri
Excal (1): Carthrat, NeoSerela
Carthrat (0): Baity, Excal, Kilgamayan, Roukanken
Kilgamayan (0): Carthrat, FAV, Benny1
NeoSerela (0): Benny1
FAV (0): Kefit, Pesco, Kilgamayan
MSB (0): huh what

Eight votes are required to lynch.  About 37.5 hours remain in the day.

[LHCling]

Votecounts seem to be quite sparse this game. And aww, wordfilter removed  :<
Moving on...

Clarification and explanation.

Ah, thanks for that; (hopefully!) I can see what you're referring to now. So in this case, the misrep in this case would be me taking a 'non-serious' statement as a 'completely serious' statement? Eww. Retracting that reasoning from my current case. Well, I don't think there's anything else left to add to the case at this point, at least from what I'm seeing at the moment.

The re-read I promised tonight ('now') will come tomorrow (12-16 hours from 'now') unfortunately, as I just had a bit too much work that was unexpectedly incoming (I hate you weekly assessments, seriously go die in a fire Biochem; you're the worst subject ever); I should be perfectly fine after though. Well, an essay for genetics is due within a week but I can handle that if I spread it out a bit unlike my other fiasco.

[FinnKaenbyou]

OK. Now is the time to NOT send out a lazy quickresponse. Now is the time to READ.

Firstly. Yes, I was probably overdoing it with the LAL, and I apologise. After Mafioso Mafia, the subject leaves me a little high-strung.

Kilga: Truth be told, I'm trying to break out of my lurker shell and contribute during the early stages of the game. And what do I get for that? I get called a useless sack of meat whose efforts have been worse than worthless. I'm really trying here, and I'm actually quite upset to be slammed with such strong rhetoric for it.

This is...pretty blatant AtE. And pressure-voting/calling for activity is hardly the best way to contribute.

For the record, my vote on Benny was for the 'L-5 is okay, L-4 is baaaad' point. Inconsistent reasons for holding the vote seemed like a good reason to follow up on, but from a newcomer that ifiness is admittedly more understandable.

About the Benny case: I think Rat hit the nail on the head. I'm seeing something in Benny's post that others do not.

I...I can't come up with an intelligent response to this. This is as bad as Pesco's FPMH nonsense and 'Zak isn't scummy for the reasons you guys are giving BUT HE'S OBVSCUM BASED ON THIS ONE PIECE OF FLUFF'. It's clearing yourself on the point of 'I'm somehow more attentive than the rest of you in a form that I can't even put usefully into words'.

On that note, what has Pesco produced beyond 'Zak and Benny are putting out fluff so they're obvscum'? I'm going to be watching this response of his intently, mainly because it'll likely be the first sizable thing he produces.

Excal basically turning around and saying 'Yes the Benny case was terrible BUT IT WAS FOR THE SAKE OF INFORMATION' doesn't really make sense. The only problem is that thinking it over, I can't exactly see the scum benefits of starting a bad lynch, then saying it's bad as you unvote. It did lead into his followup vote for Zakeri, so I'm just about willing to accept it as reeeeeeally twisted logic assuming he stays stable later on.

But on that note, a re-read has brought up an interesting little tidbit.

(principally for his useage of the word "only" there - seems to suggest a quicklynch mentality as Kefit suggested)

Besides the fact that Alice is agreeing with the whole quicklynch mentality point, he's attributed it to Kefit rather than Excal. Not enough to vote him over at the moment, but I think it's worth keeping in mind.

It annoys me how half the reason people are backing off from Zakeri is 'he makes this sort of stupid mistake as Town'. Yes, bad players can be Town, but they can be scum as well, and his literally quoting Excal's reasoning word for word feels too mindless to be bad Town play. There isn't even an effort to rephrase it, he just parrots the case completely. Town!Zak should at least be thinking about what he's saying. Vote stays for now, though the Kefit case is definitely on the verge of winning me over.

Also yaaaaay no wordfilter \o/

[FallenAngelVI]

Still happy with my Zak vote. His 'case' against huh what in #104 is based ?mostly? upon joke votes and an RVS OMGUS which is just plain terrible and makes me think he's [looking for a safe place to park his vote/pushing a case he can't genuinely believe in]. #110 and #116 are made of useless and active lurking. Willing to cut him some slack for the stress comments (oh how I can relate), but he?s still the most deserving of my vote.

Kilga, you?ve posted a case! Despite my initial wariness of you I don?t actually hate it, but really I find Kefit?s #135 more telling that anything you?ve said. The getting upset thing is a null tell (reading a ton of MS games during my absence has taught me that AtE isn?t scummy), but dropping his Benny vote for the cough ?reasoning? cough he gave feels like an appeasing response to his wagon and the charge that he?s just "hanging onto a toothless vote". I still find Zak scummier mind. 

And ED1 can be useful! The first 2 pages of WTC had scum-Rou backtracking on his RVS stance following scum-Kiro?s vote on him, followed by scum-Affinity diving onto the Rou wagon! It helped me make my endgame decision!

Re Benny: Agreed with everyone who says he?s just being a munchkin. Stupid vs scummy mistakes etc which has already been said by everyone else and their cats. Excal?s backtrack on Benny is also fine. The new enlightened me believes that voting/starting wagons on Day 1 for reactions isn?t scummy in the slightest, and in fact it?s something I now heartily endorse myself.

Vi #57: Why should more people be voting him? Because he was being defensive? <_<

Yes! Partially. Overreacting to votes against you is scummy from my POV and Kilga?s #48 after 2 ED1 votes was definitely worth pursuing further. Also, see bandwagoning comments above.

Ehh what else? Baity finally shows up in #93 and then FOS?s Rou for being weird while ignoring other weirdness. Baity, why was that bit you quoted deserving of an FOS? What did you find scummy about it?

Alice is just being his usual town/scum Alice self, disappearing until stuff happens and then making good comments on it and oh hey wait.

Meta is bad because, on its own, it's inherently unreliable, principally because one can change one's meta. Thus a player could play to his Town-meta when he is Scum and then laugh his ass off as any player who principally used meta is calling him a Townie instead of actually attempting to correctly figure out his alignment.

I still don't think he's as Townie as a lot of people think he is - his earlier mixup with the vote on Benny1 doesn't endear Zakeri to me in the slightest, and since then he's hardly gotten better, but considering he's done the exact same thing as Town in several other games on this site, I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt. For now. Provided that he improves, and fast.

Meta is bad because it?s unreliable and scum can easily play to their town meta, but you?re willing to give Zak the benefit of the doubt because his actions are in keeping with his town meta of being a derpsicle? Explain please.

I have more stuff to say but this post is already too big and I need to work tonight.

[Benny1]

I'm sick, and it feels like I'm thinking through a cloud, so it seems this is the best I can come up with:

I am having trouble getting reads on this game entirely, but here are my opinions on the five cases that seem present to me right now.

Rou: Rou seems to be all wishy-washy and I have no idea if this is what to expect from him.  From talking on IRC, this seems to me to be about how he would play Mafia, but I lack the meta to go any further.  I will keep my eye on him, though, because with this wishy-washy it might be easy to hide some contradictions here or there, and we need to look for those.

Excal: I'm not entirely sure about the whole "poor point to start the bandwagon, I know, but I just wanted info from it," but backing off as soon as we got lot of biters does seem consistent with that statement.  I wouldn't peg you as scummy right now.  You did give us a lot of information to scumhunt with, which could be a mistake, of course, and though I'm not overly happy that it came from a quickwagon which you have admitted had poor reasons to start, I'll have to see more as the game pans out before I can peg you as scummy.

Zakeri: I don't know what to think.  Plenty of active lurking posts here and there, and I'm still not overly satisfied about the vote switch, but I have nothing more than just suspicion.  I'm still suspicious, but I think that's something to pursue on a different day, when we have more material.  However, it seems that other people disagree with this and are pursuing you more aggressively, so I think I'll have to watch how that turns out as well, because though I'm not voting for you, by no means am I not suspicious.

Those three are less significant in my eyes, except for maybe Zakeri.

Pesco: I do hope to see some non-fluff posts from you soon.  It seems a few others do as well.  I'm leaving my vote on you, until you show that you have the capability of logical thought, not mindhax.  From #112 I'm not exactly happy to know that this sort of fluff trash is to be expected from you, because it really does quite a good job seeming anti-town.  Nice to know we have a player whose basic playstyle seems to be anti-town, because you certainly aren't playing pro-town right now and you need to start, now, if you want to get votes off of you.

Kefit: The only thing that confuses me a little is how aggressively you tore apart my words while you still knew I was new to mafia (we had discussed this before the game started).  This actually makes me just a little suspicious of you (trying to pick off an easy player) but I'm not completely convinced.  Kilga and Rat have good points, and I'm not entirely sure you've defended yourself from them, and rather just tried to move to a different target to take attention off of you, but perhaps you were just angry.  I can't peg anything but I think the case is still a serious case.


...

Jesus FAV, how do you do this wall thing?  This isn't even a wall at all and it's took so much effort to write up anyways.

[Kilgamayan]

Kefit: Yukkuri shiteitte ne it up if necessary, this is merely a game, business is business, none of it is personal (and I've been trying to choose language I felt could not be taken as personal affronts), we'll all be able to sit down and drink our tea afterward regardless of win or loss. I will say, however, that, given our postgame discussion from last game, you hardly have a leg to stand on in regards to complaining about the presentation style of my case. >_> (This was not meant to be some sort of ironic punishment! I actually did want to take your words to heart, and you just happened to be the first person I felt sufficiently scummy to argue against that way.)

Anyway. The Roukan case is decent, but I cannot change my vote, partly because changing one's vote (in this case, I mean Kefit's vote, not mine) does not mean previous transgressions simply vanish into the aether, and partly because I don't know how much stock I can put into "I guess I just saw something that wasn't there" when I felt Benny clearly and adequately explained himself in later posts and the vote still didn't move off of him. If nothing else, this post should have set minds that were worrying about Benny endorsing quicklynches at ease:

I did not put a vote on Zakeri or Pesco because I did not want to put them to L-4 because I feel that is too much like a quicklynch and I was simply not aware what i was doing appears to be me encouraging quicklyinching.

---

FAV: You'll have to pardon me for laughing at the idea of "well MS does things this way so it isn't a scumtell". Rather than get into the "merits" of MS play I'll just say that I have never seen AtE from someone I held in high regard when they were town.

Also please journalize less. There is some meaningful content in your post, yes, but there is also a noticeable amount of event regurgitation, which serves no purpose other than to pad out post length.

Actually I'm just now noticing that FAV mentions that ED1 can be useful by citing a previous instance where she used joke vote patterns against someone - and then blasts Zakeri for using joke vote patterns against someone. Well! Willing to vote FAV today if necessary to avoid a lynch I don't like (Benny if that train resurfaces, Zakeri, maybe Pesco but I'm still undecided there), suspicions are a combination of hypocrisy, cheerleading the Kefit wagon while clinging to a hypocritical vote, lame excuses for bad/scummy play (seriously, appeal to MS of all places?) and the journalistic touch. Still happy with my Kefit vote, though.

---

Rat: Your last game with Excal was Meme Mafia, it wasn't that long ago. >_> Admittedly most of the lategame stuff was Mage but Excal was still somewhat there.

Excal: UK is not Pesco's cat, if that is your concern.

[?lice Bl?ckb?rn]

Alice is just being his usual town/scum Alice self, disappearing until stuff happens and then making good comments on it and oh hey wait.Meta is bad because it’s unreliable and scum can easily play to their town meta, but you’re willing to give Zak the benefit of the doubt because his actions are in keeping with his town meta of being a derpsicle? Explain please.

His Town meta is enough to make me delay voting him in favour of Pesco, for now. Both are bad, Pesco is slightly worse at the moment in my eyes, I'd be perfectly fine with voting Zakeri if the Pesco lynch cannot happen, and if Pesco didn't exist at the moment in this game, I'd be voting Zakeri. Putting it simply, it is unreliable, it's just reliable enough to justify me delaying a lynch of him a day (barring him getting better) when faced with multiple people I find to be rather...bad...on today's given day phase.

[?lice Bl?ckb?rn]

Actually I'm just now noticing that FAV mentions that ED1 can be useful by citing a previous instance where she used joke vote patterns against someone - and then blasts Zakeri for using joke vote patterns against someone. Well! Willing to vote FAV today if necessary to avoid a lynch I don't like (Benny if that train resurfaces, Zakeri, maybe Pesco but I'm still undecided there), suspicions are a combination of hypocrisy, cheerleading the Kefit wagon while clinging to a hypocritical vote, lame excuses for bad/scummy play (seriously, appeal to MS of all places?) and the journalistic touch. Still happy with my Kefit vote, though.

The relevant votes in that game actually weren't in the jokevote phase, they were actually somewhat late into D1 and it was mostly an Unvote without a Revote slapped onto someone else. That being said, the hypocricy charge really does bother me somewhat. At the same time this post ALSO bothers me, principally because that post really isn't terribly padded out ("half IIoA" still means that your post is half information), and because Hayles in Cthulhu Mafia used the exact same accusation against Peyton Hadley D1 there, it was just as bad there as it is here, and he flipped Scum, while we're playing around with citing past cases as precedent for certain plays (I also think this, in general, is not a good thing, while not as unreliable as meta it could cause Town to fall into some traps). Also the fact that a good chunk of your case is at least somewhat dependent on Kefit being Scum - but you do keep your vote on him so that's a plus.

You've made your stance on the Zakeri wagon and I...disagree, but what's your stance on the Pesco wagon? I'm not seeing how you can justify not lynching him.

[Kefit]

Kilga: Your post is awesome from a persuasive standpoint. You took my words to heart after last game, and it shows. As for my response...well, let's discuss that after the game is over.

I...I can't come up with an intelligent response to this. This is as bad as Pesco's FPMH nonsense and 'Zak isn't scummy for the reasons you guys are giving BUT HE'S OBVSCUM BASED ON THIS ONE PIECE OF FLUFF'. It's clearing yourself on the point of 'I'm somehow more attentive than the rest of you in a form that I can't even put usefully into words'.

This is blatant cherry-picking that completely misrepresents my post. I spend the next several sentences explaining that I wasn't, in fact, being more attentive than everyone else. Instead, I was fooling myself over something dumb that my mind had irrationally latched on to. I then emphasize this point by taking my vote off of Benny! I can't see a reason for this misrepresentation beyond trying to make me look worse. It effectively strengthens the exploding case against me in the eyes of inattentive readers without actually making a meaningful contribution.

Speaking of which, I'm fairly bothered now by the way that Excal jumped on my wagon after saying nothing more than the case was good. His "Kudos to [Kilga and Rat] for finding [this case]" line seems to suggest that me being scum is a foregone conclusion, which does not sit well with me for a post made in the first half of day one. In fact, rereading Excal's posts his contributions seem minimal at best. Most of his words have been concerned with his Benny wagon starting scheme, either instigating it or justifying it after the fact. His only contribution not related to the Benny stuff is here, where he spends most of his time talking about how dumb Pesco is being. If I may again borrow Kilga's words, talking about Pesco's inanity is an "incredibly obvious [statement] that anyone could make regardless of alignment and [isn't] actually going to change anything meaningful."

I'm keeping my vote on Rou due to its fairly concrete voting pattern basis and his misrepresentation of me after I presented the case against him. However, I'm also going to be keeping a close eye on Excal now.

[Pesco]

My cat is not uncertain. How rude of you, Excal.

Cut by Pesco: god damn it, I'll never be able to claim saying anything other than "I agree with X" at this rate.

What do you mean?

Benny: I already explained in #97 in response to FAV what I found scummy with Zak. As for what I think of Rou, I already called him a derp in #74, which means I find him obvtown. Zak's #116 explains the derpRou tell.

At this stage it does not appear you are voting me with the intention of lynching. Anti-town is not scummy and I think you're realising it. #141 looks pretty weak to me. You admit that you're floundering for a reason to keep voting me and the way you talk about Excal and Kefit don't sit right with me. There's some fence-sit-but-leaning-town vibe I'm getting from your words on them. Explain further.

My cat asked me what makes you scum instead of just newbtown. Sorry if you don't like it but it's simply the reverse of why people are saying you ARE newbtown instead of scum. In other words, if I had a vig, I'd shoot you right now.

Sodium: #114 needs more explaining.

Neo: Would you say your vote on Excal is because he hasn't been scumhunting?

HW: Your beef with my initial case on Zak is just padding, I don't believe you can actually point out anything scummy with what it was at the time it was made. As I said, I had differing reasons and stated them. You guys don't like my currency s'all.

Pesco seems to just be being Pesco. Despite playing in several games with this guy

Hahahaha. This is a barefaced lie. And also absolutely irrelevant. The entire post is waffly to me. There's words without much impact and the case on Rou really is unimpressive. I'd ask this though, if Rou voted me instead of Zak, would it still be an 'easy wagon'? I do have the most votes atm after all.

You guys WoT too much already.

My cat thinks Kilga is looking all town. She found FAV's post a bit weird and Kilga managed to pin it. Not much more on them from her view and she also hates Day 1.

Kefit's latest post sounds pretty OMGUS to Excal. In lieu of what I said about Benny, I think one of Kefit or Excal is definitely scum at this juncture. Kefit's #135 looks amiss. I voted Benny too and given the amount of attention on me, there is no reason why he skipped my part. Even without the backing of Benny's wagon analysis (which also happens to be his approach while we don't have flips yet), I don't believe he had nothing to say on me at all.

##Unvote
##Vote Kefit

[FinnKaenbyou]

In terms of the misrep, the best explanation I can offer is that I didn't want to just parrot the case that Kilga/Rat had already made and was looking for something new to add to the discussion. I'll admit, after looking it over, my view of it was pretty off, but the alternative was getting accused of regurgitating the case that had already been produced so either way I can't win. It's why I didn't drop a vote on Benny until I had my own reason for voting, it's how I play, and apparently it isn't working out for me. :|

Pesco, where's that response you promised us a while back? Your lack of contribution is starting to really annoy me. (Ninja'd by said contribution, and I can't say I like his question to Neo - he's leading him on and almost answering the question for him. Scum mentoring?)

[Kefit]

Pesco: Now now, it's not good to accuse me of lying when it requires lying yourself. I played with you in Himelander and Haruhi. This would be our third game together. I don't understand your playing style, beyond that you seem to do random shit and get away with it, at least initially, because you are Pesco. Perhaps my sample size here is too small. Why don't you use this game to fix my thought processes on this matter? Anyway, you don't have the voting pattern I can pick apart, unlike Rou, which explains why I focused on him.

I'm not sure if Rou's vote resting on you rather than Zak would make a difference in my reasoning. I can say, however, that I do consider Zak an easier target than you. He may not have as many votes, but anyone can excuse a vote on him on the basis of his newbish play.

[?lice Bl?ckb?rn]

(Ninja'd by said contribution, and I can't say I like his question to Neo - he's leading him on and almost answering the question for him. Scum mentoring?)

Y'know, every time I hear this accusation, I always think that it's basically pathologically dumb because Scum could just--wait, Serp, are Scum allowed daytalk? It actually does not say in the rules. Or is this information that is not public, for once?

Upon further thought/contemplation I think that Kefit is worse than Zakeri. Not sure if he's still worse than Pesco, though. Hm. Hmm. Vote still stands, for now.