My crazy theory.

[Wylfred]

    Have you ever wondered how Remilia's power over fate worked? Well I've been pondering this subject for a long time and let me share with you my conclusion. As you may have already known the term manipulation of fate is very vague. So I thought to myself, what is fate? At first I came up with fate being the events that occur in your life and although that may be right. It still doesn't explain how you can manipulate it. Does Remilia just see the future and alter it? I don't think that is plausible. So in my quest to find the answer I came up with this conclusion. Remilia is able to manipulate the principles of cause and effect i.e a spear was thrown and pierces the heart. Now reverse that and what do you get? The heart was pierced because a spear was thrown. It does alter the future in a sense. Lets try another example like; Flandre sat in a chair and Remilia told her to. Now lets reverse this. Remilia told her to and Flandre sat in a chair. It would explain why Flandre is so obedient towards her sister. Anyways I think I proved my point. I am interested in hearing your thoughts.

[shadowbringer]

the only example of her using her ability that I can remember, is when she has foreseen (according to BAiJR's article on Flandre, iirc) that a meteor/meteorite would fall at the SDM. Flandre destroys it from within the SDM, but doesn't believe that Remilia has foreseen it.

[Firestorm29]

Wait, I thought Remi was supposed to change fate to cause the meteor to try and impact the SDM?

[orinrin]

I think the manipulation of fate is something so incredibly subtle, that it cannot be noticed.

I believe fate is predetermined, and that Remilia has the ability to change a few small details, but ultimately cannot do something as drastic as having someone commit suicide.

Think of fate as a bullet being shot.  Her ability can be described as altering the trajectory of said bullet.  She cannot make the bullet travel in the reverse direction, but she can control (to a degree) where it will inevitably end up.

[Wylfred]

the only example of her using her ability that I can remember, is when she has foreseen (according to BAiJR's article on Flandre, iirc) that a meteor/meteorite would fall at the SDM. Flandre destroys it from within the SDM, but doesn't believe that Remilia has foreseen it.

Flandre will destroy it because the meteor will fall on sdm. The meteor was going to fall on sdm and Flandre will destroy it.

[Wylfred]

I think the manipulation of fate is something so incredibly subtle, that it cannot be noticed.

I believe fate is predetermined, and that Remilia has the ability to change a few small details, but ultimately cannot do something as drastic as having someone commit suicide.

Think of fate as a bullet being shot.  Her ability can be described as altering the trajectory of said bullet.  She cannot make the bullet travel in the reverse direction, but she can control (to a degree) where it will inevitably end up.

Really? thats interesting. but can't everyone else do that already?

[orinrin]

Let's says that a boulder was hurled towards the Hakurei Shrine.  Reimu foresaw this attack for some untold reason and deflects the boulder with a barrier.

We can interpret this action in a two ways.
1.  Reimu deflected the boulder as in accordance to fate.
2.  Reimu changed the original fate of having the shrine being demolished by the boulder.

Which one is correct? 
What if Reimu's 'fate' was changing her fate?
Can it really be considered changing fate at that point?

I prefer to think of the first example as being true.  My idea is that fate cannot be changed through a course of direct actions.  Remilia's manipulation of fate is indirect and subtle.

---------

My current (and crappy) theory:

There are an infinite amount of universes in existence.  An infinite number of Gensokyos you might say.  Each of these worlds will have at least one difference, no matter how minor.  Let's say the current Gensokyo that our Remilia exists in right now is having a festival.  Patchouli has become sick and is unable to attend this festival.  Remilia, being the kind and charismatic soul she is, decides to change fate to allow Pachu to attend the festival.  The current Gensokyo is replaced by a parallel one, one where Pachu recovers early from her sickness and is able to attend the festival.  The old Gensokyo still exists and will keep continuing to exist, only that our viewpoint has shifted to this other Gensokyo.  The only difference separating these Gensokyos, is the fact that Pachu recovers one day earlier than she would have in the original one.  Think of this ability as merely 'shifting' the camera.  What has been already recorded in the camera cannot be undone, it will only change the possibilities of future recordings.

One last question for thought:  Is it possible to control fate without the understanding of what fate is?

Edit:  Grammar and spelling mistakes galore.

[Wylfred]

Let's says that a boulder was hurled towards the Hakurei Shrine.  Reimu foresaw this attack for some untold reason and deflects the boulder with a barrier.

We can interpret this action in a two ways.
1.  Reimu deflected the boulder as in accordance to fate.
2.  Reimu changed the original fate of having the shrine being demolished by the boulder.

Which one is correct? 
What if Reimu's 'fate' was changing her fate?
Can it really be considered changing fate at that point?

I prefer to think of the first example as being true.  My idea is that fate cannot be changed through a course of direct actions.  Remilia's manipulation of fate is indirect and subtle.

---------

My current (and crappy) theory:

There are an infinite amount of universes in existence.  An infinite number of Gensokyos you might say.  Each of these worlds will have at least one difference, no matter how minor.  Let's say the current Gensokyo that our Remilia exists in right now is having a festival.  Patchouli has become sick and is unable to attend this festival.  Remilia, being the kind and charismatic soul she is, decides to change fate to allow Pachu to attend the festival.  The current Gensokyo is replaced by a parallel one, one where Pachu recovers early from her sickness and is able to attend the festival.  The old Gensokyo still exists and will keep continuing to exist, only that our viewpoint has shifted to this other Gensokyo.  The only difference separating these Gensokyos, is the fact that Pachu recovers one day earlier than she would have in the original one.  Think of this ability as merely 'shifting' the camera.  What has been already recorded in the camera cannot be undone, it will only change the possibilities of future recordings.

One last question for thought:  Is it possible to control fate without the understanding of what fate is?

Edit:  Grammar and spelling mistakes galore.

But which one is the "current" gensokyo if there is an infinite number of universes. If there is an infinite number of Remilia then it would be an endless shift due to that fact that there is no "current" gensokyo. I see your point but, it doesn't make sense to me.

[orinrin]

Camera is filming Gensokyo A and Remilia A.
Shit happens.
Camera is now filming Gensokyo B and Remilia B.

Remilia never shifted herself to the other Gensokyo.  We simply stopped viewing Gensokyo A and started looking at Gensokyo B.

And yes there will be endless shifting, because there are an infinite amount of Remilia's changing fate an infinite amount of times.


Edit:  Why am I defending a theory that I made up in five minutes.

[Wylfred]

Camera is filming Gensokyo A and Remilia A.
Shit happens.
Camera is now filming Gensokyo B and Remilia B.

Remilia never shifted herself to the other Gensokyo.  We simply stopped viewing Gensokyo A and started looking at Gensokyo B.

And yes there will be endless shifting, because there are an infinite amount of Remilia's changing fate an infinite amount of times.


Edit:  Why am I defending a theory that I made up in five minutes.

If camera A is filming gensokyo B and Remilia B then whose filming gensokyo A? Gensokyo C? then whats gensokyo B filming? I think what your trying to go for is that the infinite number of universe constantly shifts upon each other as a result of Remilia's power over fate. Things that shouldn't happen in gensokyo A is happening in gensokyo B and vice versa.

[Moerin]

Personally I think it's just a fancy term for manipulation of probability.  Mind you, this is mostly because I don't believe in the concept of fate (to be honest, I find the idea rather abhorent), so.

[orinrin]

My theory doesn't have a large enough budget to support multiple cameras, and besides...

There can only be one.

Personally I think it's just a fancy term for manipulation of probability.  Mind you, this is mostly because I don't believe in the concept of fate (to be honest, I find the idea rather abhorent), so.

My approach on fate:  Whatever happens, happens.  If the world ends, its fate.  If it doesn't, its also fate.

[KrackoCloud]

Fate is a pretty hard thing to grasp, discuss, and overall think about, isn't it?

So with this whole idea that Remilia changes which of the many alternate Gensokyos are the main focus...
We can assume that this means each Gensokyo has its own predestined fate, considering how each one is at least slightly different.
Therefore, this would mean Remilia doesn't actually control fate. Rather, she simply chooses a pre-existing, alternative Gensokyo and thus a pre-existing, alternative timeline.

And you're saying Remilia wouldn't actually go anywhere? If say, she tried to prevent herself from dying somehow by changing fate, she would still die, right? We just wouldn't see it, but rather an alternate Gensokyo in which she lives.
If each Remilia in every Gensokyo controls fate, there would be at least a near-infinite number of times the "camera" changes, totally obliterating any sense of what's going on. One moment, we see Remilia. The next, we see a giant metropolis because way back when an alternate Remilia decided to do something that ultimately led up to a kappa takeover.
Unless there's also an unlimited amount of "cameras," each following its own timeline. For example, Remilia A changes fate. Camera A moves to Gensokyo B. Remilia B changes fate. Camera A moves to Gensokyo C. Camera B is elsewhere, doing its own thing. That would work too.

Anyway, I see it in a two ways.
First of all, Remilia cannot manipulate the laws of nature, so she can't "predestine" a falling vase to suddenly fly up into the ceiling. Makes sense, at least to me.
So this pretty much means:
- Remilia has the ability to control coincidences. To an extent.
- Or Remilia has the ability to manipulate the probability of something happening. To an extent.
Still, both are pretty similar.

I am quite sure I probably made no sense, and I am quite sure I'm really tired to boot.
Also, I am quite sure I'm not paying attention to the new replies that keep popping up, so some of my statements may be null or something.

[orinrin]

You think you're tired?

I've had zero sleep for a whole day.   :V

Remember that we can only view through one camera at a time, unless you happen to have lots and lots of eyes.  This pretty much invalidates all those other cameras.  Maybe a movie theater would be a better example.  You can't be in "LOST the Movie" and "Twilight" at the same time now, right?  Its like watching Twilight in one screening room and deciding to get up and go to another Twilight screening room with a few minor tweaks.

Oh f*ck, why did I use Twilight as an example.

[Seian Verian]

Personally, I like to think that Remi basically has manipulation of reality, making her insanely overpowered. I don't think that she's omnipotent though, it's more of that she can influence things to happen. She might be capable of total hax, but directly manipulating reality in ways that have incredibly small odds of happening (IE: Impossible) would be quite exhausting.

Instead, she prefers to affect things subtly so that they emerge in her favor, or even at a point she determines at a whim. It ends up with her being insanely powerful, one of the most powerful in Gensokyo, if not the most powerful, but still isn't outright omnipotent.

That's what I like to think anyway. I tend to imagine characters I like as being incredibly powerful to insane levels, but that when it comes down to it, there is no such thing as true omnipotence, even for them. No matter how close it may come...

[Wylfred]

Fate is a pretty hard thing to grasp, discuss, and overall think about, isn't it?

So with this whole idea that Remilia changes which of the many alternate Gensokyos are the main focus...
We can assume that this means each Gensokyo has its own predestined fate, considering how each one is at least slightly different.
Therefore, this would mean Remilia doesn't actually control fate. Rather, she simply chooses a pre-existing, alternative Gensokyo and thus a pre-existing, alternative timeline.

And you're saying Remilia wouldn't actually go anywhere? If say, she tried to prevent herself from dying somehow by changing fate, she would still die, right? We just wouldn't see it, but rather an alternate Gensokyo in which she lives.
If each Remilia in every Gensokyo controls fate, there would be at least a near-infinite number of times the "camera" changes, totally obliterating any sense of what's going on. One moment, we see Remilia. The next, we see a giant metropolis because way back when an alternate Remilia decided to do something that ultimately led up to a kappa takeover.
Unless there's also an unlimited amount of "cameras," each following its own timeline. For example, Remilia A changes fate. Camera A moves to Gensokyo B. Remilia B changes fate. Camera A moves to Gensokyo C. Camera B is elsewhere, doing its own thing. That would work too.

Anyway, I see it in a two ways.
First of all, Remilia cannot manipulate the laws of nature, so she can't "predestine" a falling vase to suddenly fly up into the ceiling. Makes sense, at least to me.
So this pretty much means:
- Remilia has the ability to control coincidences. To an extent.
- Or Remilia has the ability to manipulate the probability of something happening. To an extent.
Still, both are pretty similar.

I am quite sure I probably made no sense, and I am quite sure I'm really tired to boot.
Also, I am quite sure I'm not paying attention to the new replies that keep popping up, so some of my statements may be null or something.

Personally, I like to think that Remi basically has manipulation of reality, making her insanely overpowered. I don't think that she's omnipotent though, it's more of that she can influence things to happen. She might be capable of total hax, but directly manipulating reality in ways that have incredibly small odds of happening (IE: Impossible) would be quite exhausting.

Instead, she prefers to affect things subtly so that they emerge in her favor, or even at a point she determines at a whim. It ends up with her being insanely powerful, one of the most powerful in Gensokyo, if not the most powerful, but still isn't outright omnipotent.

That's what I like to think anyway. I tend to imagine characters I like as being incredibly powerful to insane levels, but that when it comes down to it, there is no such thing as true omnipotence, even for them. No matter how close it may come...

You think you're tired?

I've had zero sleep for a whole day.   :V

Remember that we can only view through one camera at a time, unless you happen to have lots and lots of eyes.  This pretty much invalidates all those other cameras.  Maybe a movie theater would be a better example.  You can't be in "LOST the Movie" and "Twilight" at the same time now, right?  Its like watching Twilight in one screening room and deciding to get up and go to another Twilight screening room with a few minor tweaks.

Oh f*ck, why did I use Twilight as an example.

With infinite amounts of gensokyos and infinite amounts of coincidences and the like. I believe that Remilia is changing people's perception passively instead of the whole shifting universe theory.

[Thaws]

Remember that we can only view through one camera at a time, unless you happen to have lots and lots of eyes.  This pretty much invalidates all those other cameras.  Maybe a movie theater would be a better example.  You can't be in "LOST the Movie" and "Twilight" at the same time now, right?  Its like watching Twilight in one screening room and deciding to get up and go to another Twilight screening room with a few minor tweaks.

I'm wondering why are you thinking this in the perspective of cameras, who is looking at the screen, us? In that sense, only us, the people somehow seeing Gensokyo through a computer screen in a game, can see the effects of the manipulation of fate?
Then, what happens in Remilia's perspective?

If we're following the parallel universe theory, here's what I believe: Everytime one Remilia changes her fate, her conscious moves to another world, but what happens to the one in the original world? (Because others in that Gensokyo stay there, and those in the new parallel world were "always there".)
Maybe one of the million Remilias out there wanted to be in that world and occupied that "body", but the flaw in this logic is that why would any Remilia want to suffer a fate that one of herselves didn't want to?
Then perhaps a new conscious is created? However, that new conscious will not want to suffer that fate either, and will most definitely change fate again, an infinite loop is created.

This is why I don't really believe in Parallel universes, they don't make sense to me. >_<

[IcedFairy]

Here's my insane theory.

Remilia sees the future, perfectly.  She can then see what would happen if she acted in a particular way.  If she sees a person dying on the side of the road she knows what would happen to him if she saved him, killed him, or just walked on by.  So in a sense she can alter the future (Fate) at whim, by picking the best future availible to her.

In that case the limitations would be, she can't mess with things that have no connection with her (because she doesn't think to look at them) and she can't alter things that are beyond her power.

I imagine she's also bad at micromanaging things that have a lot of variable's, like danmaku battles.

[Pesco]

Let me try draw a real life example here.

Fortune tellers are people that supposedly tell you your fate. Generally people will hear it and attune themselves into accomplishing it. In essence, they have manipulated your fate from whatever you were going to do if you hadn't heard their foretelling.

Whether the fortune teller is legit or bogus, their trade relies on charisma. I think you guys see where I'm going with this.

Remi is a charismatic vampire. She manipulates fate. :V

[CK Crash]

Every moment, you make a decision, even if it's something small like how deep your breath is. Remilia's power sets someone on the path with decisions closest to what she wants. However, she can only choose paths that would have a chance of occurring naturally, I.E. she can't make someone fated to spontaneously combust or something.

[Fightest]

Riffing off Pesco's interpretation - Remilia doesn't actually have the power to manipulate fate. She just claims everything that happened was her doing, and she's charismatic enough to pull it off without anyone calling her bluff.

[Dizzy H. "Muffin" Muffin]

I'm rather taken with the idea that it's a toned-down non-lethal version of the Death Note. As long as she knows your name and face, and it's not too improbable or out-of-character, and there's time for the necessary changes to happen ("In five seconds will now be struck by a meteor which has been travelling towards Earth for five weeks!" "... ... ...what?"), AND it doesn't cause anyone else to die except the one(s) specified, AND she ...

Riffing off Pesco's interpretation - Remilia doesn't actually have the power to manipulate fate. She just claims everything that happened was her doing, and she's charismatic enough to pull it off without anyone calling her bluff.

Yes, she's already known to be a liar.

[Helepolis]

Although she has been alive for 500 years, her personality is that of a selfish child. She is respected by most youkai, but her charisma doesn't stem from her personality; rather, it comes from the fear that they have for her kind.

A vampire  who resides in the Scarlet Devil Mansion. She can manipulate fate. She has apparently lived for over 500 years. Considering how long she has lived, she acts rather childishly.

Race: Vampire
Occupation: Mistress
Place of residence: Scarlet Devil Manor
Ability: The power to control fate
Personality: Haughty and terrible. Still, she's just a kid who hasn't grown up.

[Alice Fact]

I think the manipulation of fate is something so incredibly subtle, that it cannot be noticed.

I believe fate is predetermined, and that Remilia has the ability to change a few small details, but ultimately cannot do something as drastic as having someone commit suicide.

Think of fate as a bullet being shot.  Her ability can be described as altering the trajectory of said bullet.  She cannot make the bullet travel in the reverse direction, but she can control (to a degree) where it will inevitably end up.

I am a fan of this; the idea that no character is "broken", that their "abilities" are minor, and that their real power comes from physical strength

[KrackoCloud]

Remember that we can only view through one camera at a time, unless you happen to have lots and lots of eyes.  This pretty much invalidates all those other cameras.  Maybe a movie theater would be a better example.  You can't be in "LOST the Movie" and "Twilight" at the same time now, right?  Its like watching Twilight in one screening room and deciding to get up and go to another Twilight screening room with a few minor tweaks.

Well, instead of camera, maybe "timeline" might be a better term too?
Camera A starts with Remilia A in Gensokyo A. Remilia A changes fate. Camera A moves to Gensokyo B. The local Remilia B changes fate. Camera A moves to Gensokyo C. Remilia C dies.

Camera A writes this all down in Timeline A, noting every Remilia as the same one. Of course, consdering the course of events as written down, this timeline would either be attributed with a Gensokyo that has the same events, or become its own Gensokyo.

Would you consider this another example of this theory?
Still, I'm more like thinking about this out loud than arguing for or against this idea, or trying to change it for that matter.
This is confusing.

I think the manipulation of fate is something so incredibly subtle, that it cannot be noticed.

I believe fate is predetermined, and that Remilia has the ability to change a few small details, but ultimately cannot do something as drastic as having someone commit suicide.

I like this. It might also be that Remilia has the ability to change these small things many times, so as to create a drastic effect.
However, when it comes to, say, a battle with a protagonist, there are so few "little things" to manipulate that Remilia still has a good chance of losing.

[Halca]

For me, I like to simply think of it as she can decide how something will end that will end in the far future but nothing else.  Fate is also tied to people, so she can manipulate your fate to be friends with someone, but it might end up destroying Gensokyo or something because she can only effect the finished product for the chosen person.

But idk, I'm an idiot.

[♛ Apher-Forte]

I use Dr. Manhattan's viewpoint on this

in the movie Watchmen, Dr. Manhattan was asked, if you are god, that means you can see fate, the past present and future.

He denied by saying while he can indeed see fate, he can see situations of himself. Because time is parallel to the universe which he now exists. (hence he can do multiple things at one time, and exist in more than 2 places at once)

He says in the words: "I can see the past, present, and future of myself, and therefore I can manipulate to a certain extent what is to happen or will happen. However, I cannot change the fate of those like you."


I believe, Remilia is something along the last of line, she can see and link what present events will lead to what future occurences may occur. In my writing for example (The Blood Diaries) I mentioned she can see for a brief moment into the future, but will cost significant energy on her part both mentally and physically.

The moment in future is also blurry, unless the event has a large enough 'catasthropic ripple' on what a normally calm past, present and future 'stream' may be, she cannot say: There is a meteor to hit SDM, Flan will stop it.

Her accurate wordings would be : There may be something quite large that will hit the SDM, either me or Flan, or possibly even Patchouli may rise to stop it, but guessing from the blurry images of the laevateinn, I believe it will likely be Flan. For now, I shall warn to Flan that there may be something that will hit SDM, so she can prepare if it does happen.


I hope that works.

[♛ Apher-Forte]

I also call on the 'Fate Ripple' effect.

for example, in the movie White Noise 2 The Light,

A man saves a woman from certain harm, but following that, the woman suffered some kind of possession and was hell bent on to kill others, in which he must put an end to before it is too late.

Thought not as nearly B grade, Remilia's 'manipulation' for example, where she may say to Flan 'Please stop this something that may destroy SDM ok?'

1. She doesn't say it, and SDM was destroyed due to unpreparedness. In the subsequent ripple, she was rendered homeless, and has to take up shelter perhaps at Mugenkan (nearest other mansion with Yuka) until it has been repaired. She made friends there, along meeting with Kurumi the other vampire. Note she cannot see all of this happening, but by denying her manipulation of fate, say she didn't warn Flan and so on, she can trigger a ripple effect which will affect the people around her.

2. If she actually does warn the SDM, the subsequent events of Baijr would happen, this may spawn an entirely new 'Gensokyo Universe' that someone was talking about above.