Final Boss Music Discussion

[KomeijiKoishi]

This is a very simple question: How must a Final Boss theme sound for you?

In my opinion, the perfect Final Boss Theme is silent, diabolical and haunting. I do know that it depends on the character it is for, but I would insta-fave such a track.

[Fightest]

It really depends on the character or entity that the final boss is, of course. Some very powerful things can be done by seeing how their theme contrasts with or, equally possibly, reminds us of the rest of the soundtrack.

A good example of power-through-contrast is the theme of Savato from Trauma Centre. The rest of the soundtrack is patent Shoji Meguro: New-Age electronic stuff, but then you get to the last patient and BAM! Choir-and-organ combo. Caught me wonderfully off-guard.

On the other hand, power-through-similarity is equally atmospheric, and I see a lot of that in Planescape: Torment. There is one central motif in the piece, and it crops up everywhere: locations, cinematics, character themes. Even the major bosses have that motif to them, and it just keeps reinforcing the feeling that everything is connected - and everything is connected in that story. Storytelling through music, right there.

[Chainsaw Guitar]

Fast paced and intense as fuck. The music alone should be able to make you choke regardless of how difficult the actual boss is.

[Bananamatic]

Fast paced and intense as fuck. The music alone should be able to make you choke regardless of how difficult the actual boss is.

DFK BL :V

The champion fight in Yellow also made me nervous as a kid :V
I ended up freezing the Jolteon with my final Ice Beam and then a lv15 Psyduck Scratched him for 5 minutes.

[Barrakketh]

A good example of power-through-contrast is the theme of Savato from Trauma Centre. The rest of the soundtrack is patent Shoji Meguro: New-Age electronic stuff, but then you get to the last patient and BAM! Choir-and-organ combo. Caught me wonderfully off-guard.

Once you get to the true final operation in Second Opinion you're rewarded with this gem.

[Rikter]

I feel that Dancing Mad from FFVI in it's entirety is the best Final boss theme simply because of how all of the parts feel perfect for each phase. I still like part one of it the best though.

[OkashiiKisei]

The perfect final boss theme needs to have an heroic feel to it. The feeling that this is truly your last obstacle, that you are fighting for the entire world and beyond. It has to be sligtly omnious ofcourse, since this is your most powerful foe to date, but there needs to be a sign of hope in the song, that shows your struggle against this great evil, and your efforts to overcome it. One of the best ways to portray this is by letting the song start off as dark, ominous and evil, giving the feeling that this battle is impossible. But as the song goes on, it starts to build up, becoming more active, more optimistic, more powerful. More heroic.

The very best examples of this are the Genesis (which starts out dark but ends in an epic, hopeful finale, that just screams 'good prevails in the end'), or part two and three of the Sacrifice from Seiken Densertsu 3 (part 1 is only a pre-battle theme). Part 2 plays during the first part of the fight, where the boss is still at full health and is clearly at the upper hand. It's evil, ominous and full of despair, chilling you to the bone. However, once the endboss loses half of it's health the music spontaneously jumps to the beautiful part 3, a true masterpiece for the SNES times. Absolutely amazing, and it fills you with hope and goodness, and the faith that you'll win this battle. Wonderful.

There's also battle themes who have an epic chorus and everything around is malevolent. So it springs from dark to heroic from time to time. And many songs by Yoko Shimomura have darkness and light mixed together. You can find both benevolent and malevoent tunes in her compositions, as seen in Dark Bowser Showdown and Darkness of the Unknown. Yoko Shimomura is a musical genius.

[Matsuri]

Once you get to the true final operation in Second Opinion you're rewarded with this gem.

That one's good, but I prefer Severing the Chains of Fate. Then again, I'm a huge fan of Manabu Namiki, so I guess I'm biased.

Yoko Shimomura, Nobuo Uematsu, and Shoji Meguro are all incredible as well.

EDIT: It goes without saying, but ZUN does 'em well too. Then again, does it count when most of his music is already pretty great?

[Iryan]

This depends on several factors, the most important of which would be the pacing of the battle, the circumstances of the battle (both location and story-wise) and the nature of the boss.

For example, a fast-paced platformer or shmup should have a somewhat fast-paced battle theme to go with the gameplay. A turn-based RPG, on the other hand, should focus more on having a theme with an "epic" feel to it.
A creepy and dark boss character needs to have the creepiness reflected in his battle theme. A diabolical entity that puts the viewer in awe, be it through its serenity or its monstrosity, should get an ominous theme.
If the battle seems hopeless or occurs right after (or during) a dramic plot development, this should be reflected somehow. If it is merely the final battle of the supreme forces of light against the supreme forces of evil, it can be triumphant instead. The final battle theme(s) of Seiken Densetsu 3 which Okashii posted are good examples for both.

As you see, context is important. For example, imagine fighting Sephiroth to Native Faith. Imagine fighting Suwako to One Winged Angel. Even though these are both awesome boss themes, when put in the wrong battle they don't seem half as awesome, do they?

In general it is important that the theme is varied enough to not get boring for the duration of the battle, ideally showcasing different aspects of the battle, character or story through different parts.

As was already said, having a song compliment or contrast with the rest of the game can have a powerful effect, too. Compare:

Super Mario 64's final Bowser theme is a very ominous theme for a battle in a comparatively creepy atmosphere whereas the rest of the game had mostly upbeat music, and this change of tone is perfect for delivering the "final battle"-feel.

Banjo Kazooie's final boss theme, on the other hand, is a remix of the "dungeon map" cavern theme which you have heard quite alot during the playthrough of the game, with many different nuances depending on where exactly you were. What's more, the main phrases of this theme appear in every stage theme in some way or another. The final boss theme takes this familiar tune and arranges it to sound dramatic, frantic and epic during its various parts. Thus it really feels like the battle that concludes everything that came before it.
Similarly, the Champion battle theme from Pokemon Gold/Silver contains parts of the title theme.


As a non-touhou battle theme that scores high in all of the above (but sadly only with the soundeffects of the batle accompanying it), I would like to metnion the final battle theme of Yoshi's Island. For one who hasn't seen it, the effects of the growth spell come completely out of nowhere, and the ominous music at the beginning of the theme fit perfectly. Then the theme really gets going, and unlike the regular boss theme (which is also good), it is fast-paced metal. Or at least as much metal as 16 bit can be.  :V

Also, the final boss themes by ZUN are obviously awesome in general and especially in fitting with the respective battles. The one that fits the feeling of the actual battle the best is imho Suwa Foughten Field, especially if you time the dialogue so that the opener starts ~ 11.5 seconds into the song. It is not my favorite pice of touhou music, but it accompanies the battle so well, it is glorious...

[Seian Verian]

Hm... It depends on the boss, and the story to be honest. However, what I think would be the perfect final boss theme... Dark, ominous, intense. This is your last fight, and it is not going to be easy. However, it should also have its heroic parts, showing the struggle that the heroes continue with, their determination, they will not lose, no matter how outmatched they are.

Perhaps, even add in a touch of sadness at parts, mourning the losses that have been taken on the way. Depending on the boss, there might be more of this sadness than there is darkness and fear, signifying that you're not simply fighting evil, you're fighting for your own beliefs, and those beliefs just happen to clash, the heroes might not want to fight their enemy, but they have to.

Obviously, there should be something in the music that relates to the character that's being fought, not just as a boss, but as a person. For a cold, calculating villain, maybe there would be parts where it seems like it calms down, things are stepping back, things are measured, trying to figure out how to change tactics. Mindless beasts or simple ancient evils wouldn't get this, instead, there would be overwhelming, wild parts to the song.

Basically, the perfect final boss theme weaves between the feelings of both sides, while also providing a feeling of finality, that this is going to be the end. That's what I think anyway.

[WHMZakeri]

If you fight a Final Boss, and then afterwords listening to just to music doesn't start your heart racing, it's failed it's job.

[Doomsday]

If you fight a Final Boss, and then afterwords listening to just to music doesn't start your heart racing, it's failed it's job.

Pretty much this.

[Ghaleon]

Good final boss music TYPICALLY makes you feel like tearing apart your shirt, revealing your super-hero outfit, flying over and rescuing someone... I agree that sacrifice 3 is a good example (not too fond of 2, it's kinda boring IMO). However there are plenty of great final boss songs that don't really match this description.

[Fightest]

Hmm...this discussion brings me to a theory. Final boss music should be so terrifying that you can't actually bear listening to it to even fight the final boss.

An equally depressing theme works as well, a piece that saps your will to live long before you deplete the boss' hitpoints.

[Bananamatic]

Hmm...this discussion brings me to a theory. Final boss music should be so terrifying that you can't actually bear listening to it to even fight the final boss.

An equally depressing theme works as well, a piece that saps your will to live long before you deplete the boss' hitpoints.

1) mute your TV
2) play Erasure - Always
3) ????
4) PROFIT!

[Tonepoet]

Regardless of placement, all video game music needs to match the circumstance. Sometimes this is even more important than being a good listenable piece. Consider what happens when you're fighting Giygas in Earthbound for example; you know, what happens after Pokey turns off the Devil's Machine. The utter discord of the background noise sounds simply terrible but that's what sets the mood. It's a virtually hopeless, confused mess of static and sorrow that you don't even want to listen to. It conveys the creepy madness that is Giygas, the utterly dreadful fear in the otherwise optimally cheerful protagonist's hearts and rounds out the game's utter weirdness by bringing a grim dark serious tonality to the game which would've otherwise been absent. As music, it sucks but as part of the atmosphere it's utterly irreplaceable in function.

Spoiler:

It's just a shame that the protagonists couldn't experience it in the flesh for it to make their skin crawl. It really diminishes almost every aspect of the conflict to swap out their bodies. The whole drama angle wouldn't have needed much reworking at all.

Of course the game would've been just as good if the climatic battle was set to Yakety Sax, assuming the context was reworked to be more comedic. Yakety Sax is often used for the main conflict in a comedy of errors, of the sort Earthbound kinda built itself up to be. It just couldn't have been anything more "traditional" like Poky Means Business, because as great as that theme is, it doesn't bring the situation over the top enough.

On an entirely unrelated note, I wanna hear The Flight of the Bumblebee used someday.

[axman36]

A good final boss theme is one that fits the theme of the video game or at least the villain I'd say.

Metal Gear Solid 4 is a good example, most of the game is about how all the events throughout the entire game led up to the issue of the present. Much of the game is compromised mostly of throwbacks to the past 3 games, thus when you hit the final boss, music from the past 3 games start playing along with the new theme meant to represent the games of the Metal Gear Solid series. The whole idea of all the events that led up to this final battle between Snake and Liquid/Ocelot are portrayed in this battle.

Dancing Mad for Kefka is an excellent example as well. Insane maniac given the powers of a god while the protagonists attempt to save what's left of the world from his destructive nature. Makes you feel his insanity and the idea of how powerful he is.

Mother 3 as well, the whole idea of desperation turned into hopeful sadness with all the events that unfold during and shortly before that last battle. The realization of who was fighting you, why he was fighting you, and why he cannot stop fighting you, all with the addition of the music representing how hopeless it all seems, up until the ...

But for other games where they simply are giving you the final boss, and giving off the whole idea of "This is the final battle, and it's going to be intense," I'd say any music that gets your adrenaline going and makes the battle epic. My favorite type of that kind of music is the kind where it goes slow at the beginning, but then BAM, the intense part begins. Mother 2/Earthbound's Pokey Means Business, FF8's final battle, Lost Odyssey Howl of the Departed, and Resident Evil 2's T-B Tyrant Theme(Not exactly the final boss... but yeah) are good examples of that kind of music.

Don't know why, seems to set up the mood, and then throws you right into it.

[Bananamatic]

On an entirely unrelated note, I wanna hear The Flight of the Bumblebee used someday.

Somebody has pointed out that some parts of this are indeed TFotB.

[Edible]

ctrl+f Wild Arms 2

ctrl+f Lord Blazer

Son, I am disappoint.

[Azinth]

The utter discord of the background noise sounds simply terrible

Giygas's theme is pretty cool actually, considering the system they had to work with.  Tuneless noise is a severely underrated art-form.

I guess it isn't really something you'd call 'catchy' though.

[Ionasal kkll Solciel]

Similar to axman, I believe that a good final boss theme is one that fits with either the boss itself or the entire game's theme.

Pieces like Final Fantasy Mystic Quest's Dark King theme brings in a sense of urgency, blending in and out of the din of battle, with Meteo, Flare, and White flying around.

Pieces like the three EXEC_over.METHOD_SUBLIMATION/. songs lamenza, ee wassa sos yehar, and omness chs ciel sos infel first start off with a slow, intense piece as Croix and the others pierce through to the creation Infel and Nenesha made from Frelia's tree, then to a powerful, dark theme as they face the dragon itself, and finally to a peaceful, slow theme that highlights just why the two of them are going to so much trouble to perform Sublimation in the first place.

Some, like Ace Combat 5's The Unsung War, tie in to the protagonists well, this one describing the legend behind Razgriz, starting slow, then increasing in pace, as the Ghosts of Razgriz make one last run against the final remnants of the Belkan War, and the SOLG.

Songs like READY STEADY GO, Jumpin' Jack Flash, and Sekai wa Sore wo Ai to Youbundaze are all set up as rapid-paced songs full of hope, to work with the fact that you're saving the world from some type of disaster of another - and you're doing it with the entire world helping you along, just as you've been doing for the rest of the game.

[shadowbringer]

This is a very simple question: How must a Final Boss theme sound for you?

IaMP answer: depends :V

there are some final boss themes that I find to be outstanding, perhaps because the bgm goes well with the boss fight or helps express certain feelings.

Some examples that I can think of atm:
Armed Police Batrider (after the boss' first phase, can you feel the anxiety and hope that you don't mess your credit up?)
Battle Garegga (the "bgm" for the final form is the deepest thing ever. Only you and the boss, over a silent sky past midnight.)
Phantasm Romance's Stage 6 on Another Mode (once you've played the final pattern/spellcard, you can't not associate the bgm with it)
Phantasm Romance's Stage EX4 (the patterns aren't hectic, nor is the bgm here, but they walk along very nicely. The boss fight is filled with huge attacks, that may also emphasize or be emphasized by the bgm)

[theshirn]

Depends entirely on the game, and the fight.  Some final boss fights are hopeful struggles for the fate of humanity, others are crushing doom in your face.

A few really good ones:
The Almighty from Persona 4 -

Spoiler:

Yes, I know Ameno-Sagiri isn't the TRUE final boss, but it is for the normal ending, and The Almighty gives all the vibes associated with P4 as a whole and this fight in particular, in addition to being a particularly wonderful piece of music.

The Day The World Falls from Luminous Arc 2 - This is interesting, because it's an SRPG, so it's the theme for everyone on the field at the same time (I'm using LA2 as a stand-in for the genre, or I'd include a bunch more).  It mixes the right amounts of fear, despair, tension, and that one quiet section of just the harp and violin together that speaks of the hopes that ride upon this last, desperate fight.  Once again, Yoko Shimomura is a bloody genius.
The Final Battle from Riviera: The Promised Land - I add this one because it's a good example of a final battle that sticks to predominantly major keys; as such, it comes off much heavier on the "hope" side and less on the "fear".  However, it still contains the energy and power expected of a final boss, and it works.

...a good example where this doesn't: Emotional Skyscraper ~ Cosmic Mind.  ZUN's final boss themes are exceptionally varied for the work of one man, usually consisting of several discrete parts.  Moving into major keys is by no means a bad thing: it can be done, and done well.  History of the Moon is major as all hell, and it's pretty sweet.  However, Cosmic Mind simply lacks the energy, the pacing, the punch of a final boss theme.  It is eminently fitting for Byakuren's character, but it doesn't make for a fitting final boss.

[/2cents]

[Azinth]

The Final Battle from Riviera: The Promised Land - I add this one because it's a good example of a final battle that sticks to predominantly major keys; as such, it comes off much heavier on the "hope" side and less on the "fear".  However, it still contains the energy and power expected of a final boss, and it works.

...a good example where this doesn't: Emotional Skyscraper ~ Cosmic Mind.  ZUN's final boss themes are exceptionally varied for the work of one man, usually consisting of several discrete parts.  Moving into major keys is by no means a bad thing: it can be done, and done well.  History of the Moon is major as all hell, and it's pretty sweet.  However, Cosmic Mind simply lacks the energy, the pacing, the punch of a final boss theme.  It is eminently fitting for Byakuren's character, but it doesn't make for a fitting final boss.

Um, all three of those themes are completely in the minor key.:V  Just to let you know, 'Major' and 'Minor' refers to the piece's tonality, not the mood/atmosphere it tries to create.  That's another thing entirely.

[/musicnerdnitpicking]

But to post on-topic for once... I'll just go with everyone else and say 'it depends on the context.'  The music in a soundtrack should, more than anything, be made to go along with what's going on.  Take the difference between Utsuho and Yuyuko's battles in SA and PCB.  One is a violent and climactic struggle of good-versus-evil, the other is meant to be more tragic and morally ambiguous.  Both are final boss fights, but both require different themes to fit them properly.

[theshirn]

Um, all three of those themes are completely in the minor key.:V  Just to let you know, 'Major' and 'Minor' refers to the piece's tonality, not the mood/atmosphere it tries to create.  That's another thing entirely.

[/musicnerdnitpicking]

FLARGLESTARGBLE

alright fine I know nothing thanks a lot

EDIT: also what the hell is the term I am looking for then

[Azinth]

FLARGLESTARGBLE

alright fine I know nothing thanks a lot

EDIT: also what the hell is the term I am looking for then

That they're just made to invoke an upbeat/triumphant mood?  idunno

[theshirn]

That they're just made to invoke an upbeat/triumphant mood?  idunno

curses

I know major and minor is tonality, but for some reason the two have always lined up with the mood (in the way expressed above) as far as I could tell (and by that I mean I got an A in the course, which means I did damn well on the final, and I talked extensively about the tonality, mostly drawing upon how it sounded to figure it out).

SO HELL IF I KNOW

[Fightest]

Um, all three of those themes are completely in the minor key.:V

Objection!

Excuse me, my good sir, I simply cannot let this slide. Riviera's Final Battle, History of the Moon and Cosmic Mind are not completely in the minor key. As all good pieces that evoke an emotional reponse go, they have a clear harmonic progression that moves across tonalities and keys to produce tension or relief where necessary.

However, Cosmic Mind is certainly mostly major. The other two I've listened to only briefly, but they also have strong major components.

[edit] I also disagree with theshim's evaluation of Cosmic Mind's power, but that's a personal taste issue, of course.

[WHMZakeri]

It's hard to see how, on a touhou based forum, the answer to this thread could be anything but "Depends on the Context."

Context is the very basis for all of boss themes in every Touhou game - Each boss theme is tuned to the personality of the character you fight. I agree that Byakuren's theme isn't really fitting to be attached to that of a Final Boss, but Byakuren herself isn't really a final boss character. The song itself instead gives an impression of a girl fighting for her own freedom and survival, for a hopeful world which is exactly what she is. It works for her character, and the fact that she's the final stage boss and that her theme is the final boss theme is almost completely a coincidence.

There are plenty of times in a Touhou game where the music doesn't fit in with the stage order. Two good examples I can think of are SA Stage one (Which sounds like a final boss theme in itself) and PCB Stage 6 (Where the song for Yuyuko's last spellcard is a "Final Boss remix" version of the song used for the rest of the fight.)

These are not cases where ZUN failed in song placement. These are cases that prove that we shouldn't be measuring a song's value with context like "Boss fights" or "Stage theme" or "Town music." Since the context of the situation is sometimes much more complex than that.

[Azinth]

Objection!

Excuse me, my good sir, I simply cannot let this slide. Riviera's Final Battle, History of the Moon and Cosmic Mind are not completely in the minor key. As all good pieces that evoke an emotional reponse go, they have a clear harmonic progression that moves across tonalities and keys to produce tension or relief where necessary.

However, Cosmic Mind is certainly mostly major. The other two I've listened to only briefly, but they also have strong major components.

[edit] I also disagree with theshim's evaluation of Cosmic Mind's power, but that's a personal taste issue, of course.

No, they are all very clearly minor just about all the way through. ;>_>  Though you might be referring to the fact that all three pieces make extensive use of picardy thirds at the end of certain cadences(Japanese composers seem to freaking LOVE doing that, never really understood why).  So I was wrong, they're not completely minor, just like 95% minor. :V