Apparently, freedom is strange confusing.

[Paul Debrion]

I've seen this time and time again watching other people play Deus Ex for the first time.
They do fine until they die once, then they run headfirst into same death over and over and over again without pause nor fail, like some kind of immortal super lemming despite much less hazardous alternatives being available.
They usually continue until they either give up or make it though by luck. Very rarely to do they come to the realization that maybe they don't have to take those stairs.

How about Garry's Mod? A lot of people love it because you can do just about anything.
However, a lot of people go in, they attach some junk together and toss it around, and maybe try out some hoverballs or baloons on the airboat.
After a while they seem to simply run out of things to do without even touching half the tools.

Even games like S.T.A.L.K.E.R., which aren't that non-linear by definition often confuse people because they don't give you a clear objective right off the bat.

Open-ended space sims. A lot of people are smart enough to figure out the the controls of X3: Terran Conflict, but are at a loss as to what they should be doing. There are a lot of things they could be doing of course, but it's almost like the very idea that they can do what they want "does not compute", and they wander around nervously lost and confused. It's not until they get into one of the campaigns and are given clear orders to do something do they feel comfortable again.


Mind you, not everyone is like this, but the large portion of gamers are.



Ironically while lot of gamers say they want choice and freedom in their games, some of them don't actually cope very well when you give it to them.
Once no longer constrained to a clear singular path, some of them become lost and confused, and flail around helplessly like fish out of water.

But why?

Is making one's own decisions uncomfortable? Are most modern mainstream games so straightforward and linear that not having a clear direction is awkward? Does there need to be a clear goal for some to motivate themselves to do anything, even for entertainment?


Discuss.

[Spidere]

Is making one's own decisions uncomfortable? Are most modern mainstream games so straightforward and linear that not having a clear direction is awkward? Does there need to be a clear goal for some to motivate themselves to do anything, even for entertainment?

I've always thought it was ridiculous when people can't handle a sandbox, or open ended game unless it was GTA. I buy games like S.T.A.L.K.E.R. because I can run around, kill a few things, do a mission, or search dead bodies for better equipment. I bought X3: Terran Conflict so I could fly around, ease myself in, go find a campaign.

It's odd how today's "gamer" requires directly linear gameplay.

[Helion]

X3: Reunion is an excellent example, I've played it a lot. It's just a slow beginning and very often likes to overload you with information you probably won't need in hours, like handling space stations and such, which come much later than the beginning. I just like when a tutorial fills me in on the bare essentials and then send me on my way "you can figure out the rest" style, because quite frankly it's pretty straightforward.

Also the trading grind until you get AIs and extra cargos to do it is boring as shit, I was reading books throughout.

[shadowbringer]

my brother has installed Hitman on his pc, and I've got to play it a few times. The gameplay was so, that I couldn't kill enemies as comfortably as in, say, Unreal Tournament 3 or Counter Strike (here, you had lengthy reload times and your character is slower). I also didn't like the movement, I felt motion sickness from turning around and around (which didn't happen in Unreal Tournament 3, even though the pace of UT3 was quicker).

Feeling that I was wasting my time (if you like to think that a time where you had some fun isn't a time wasted), and not in the mood of exercising memorization through mere trial and error, I went to gamefaqs and read a walkthrough, did some stages and got bored.

At least, certain "puzzling moments" from other games did keep me trying to solve them, like.. the final boss of CastleVania Kid (I thought that my attacks weren't damaging it. The fiery lion at the beginning of that stage was also an enigma, I even considered shooting the ground to see if this would damage it, before I found that the ice weapon made it flash in a different color). The other moment that I could remember was somewhere in FF4, dunno if I was above ground, or below, but I could swear that I've searched everything so far.. but eventually progressed. (one last one would be trying to beat Chrono Trigger on the emulator and only being able to do the "hold L+R and then press A" thing after having gotten a more recent version of the emu :p)

[Reddyne]

I've frequently enjoyed both western and eastern RPGs which can clash in terms of linearity and non-linearity. I must admit that I prefer to wander about like I can in Elder Scrolls games despite being an avid JRPG fan. Finding dungeons, exploring them for treasure, etc. and then proceeding along with the main storyline.

This can go to ridiculous lengths, though. When playing through Morrowind for the second time, I focused on guild quests and just randomly wandering about for as much as I damn well pleased. I did all of this over the course of maybe a few months. When I went back to do the main quest, I realized that I had lost the package for Caius Cossades. I didn't know where it was right away, so I used a code to give me an extra one. I eventually found the original in the chest I used to store about 400 keys in a mansion in Balmora I had "inherited" in order to store all the wonders of the world. I was the head of like 5 guilds/organizations/religions and I had to cheat to start the first quest.

[Chainsaw Guitar]

I can appreciate a few forks in the road, but I hate shit like where you're literally dropped in the middle of nowhere and just told 'GO!'.

[Fightest]

Most people nowadays have goal-oriented mentality - if you've achieved a goal, you've used your time effectively. If you've accomplished a challenge, the feeling of superiority due to skill/smarts/etc. is present, and that also contributes to satisfaction. A major point to make here is that only the people who are intimately familiar with the game can make goals and challenges, i.e. the game designers, since they know the limits of their game and how everything is connected.

Sandboxes have you do nothing towards any kind of goal (in a hypothetical extreme case, of course). Sure, you may have done a sweet jump on a motorcycle whilst just cruising around, but the ultimate feeling here is "I've done nothing productive with my time."

I found this out for myself when I played around with a flash game on Walfas. The flash has the player being able to throw a rock at Tenshi. "Great," I thought, "whoop-de-doo." Then I noticed the challenge section and realised that the game allows for things that are not immediately obvious, like absurd heights thrown and number of recoils off Tenshi in one throw. Once I had a set of goals, the game became infinitely more fun.

[WHMZakeri]

While what Fightest says is true, I find it more linked towards adulthood.

As a child, humans know next to nothing. You can't grasp hard concepts, large words need to be defined by smaller words, reading is a big plus as well! Obviously, goals for children are lofty, since they mainly center around learning as much as they can.

This is essentially what Game freedom, or "exploration" potential is all about - the need to go out on your own and learn what you need to to survive or progress in the world.

The Sonic barrel is a good example of this for me - I was only a few years old when I got my first game console, the sega genesis, and my most favorite game on it was Sonic 3. Yes, that sonic barrel. It is considered a major roadblock in the game simply because it follows from a game design that it only ever essential or even helpful exactly once, is never explained, and does not follow from anything else logically. It's also almost impossible to get past it without figuring out the trick. I only remember having to restart this level ONCE in my entire childhood - I figured it out quickly. Give this game to an adult who tries to figure things out logically, they will never get past, yet as a child it only took me two rounds to figure it out completely and enjoy the rest of the game.

I had another example from Mischief Makers, but I don't have enough of an idea of what it was to employ it properly. The thing is, you'll find lots of this sort of thing the further back you go in gaming history. FFI Gives loose suggestions of where to go next, Many RPG games don't even give you directions and just dump you in a giant maze (Others still taught you to talk to as many strangers as possible just to figure out what's happening), and even Mario rewards sitting around and breaking every block you see with coins or warp points. It's easy to look back into the games you played as a child and wonder to yourself "God damn! how did I even beat this?"

The reason this goes away as we grow older in my theory is because by this age, learning has to be a much more refined process for us (or in some cases, we believe learning isn't important anymore) and our focus shifts more towards getting things done. Getting things done is progress, and it usually means we're contributing. This increased emphasis as it equates to game playing results in a loss of appeal, much as Fightest described.

In any case, I've written five paragraphs on the subject, so I'm out for now.

[KomeijiKoishi]

I prefer a game being linear at first, then "opening" itself by time while you become more familiar with the game mechanics.

[Stuffman]

Just posting to say I found Zakeri's analysis of the subject fascinating.

Speaking of the Sonic barrel. I got the barrel to move up and down a bit by jumping on it and thought that was what you had to do to get it out of the way, so I tried jumping on it repeatedly while instinctively pressing down, thus causing it to move, but not enough to actually get past it. I even got the idea to get my sister to play Tails and jump on the barrel until it went up enough for me to run under it, but we couldn't quite do it. Then I remembered the manual saying something along the lines of "Robotnik has set up devious traps which you cannot escape!" and that's why you could save your game. So I figured that I had missed some sort of secret bypass and that you did not have to get past the barrel, so I ran through Carnival Night countless times trying to find the path that did not exist. So basically, me misinterpreting how the barrel worked caused me to drop the game after hours of frustration.

Fuck the Sonic barrel. Sonic 2 is better anyway ;_;

[Tengukami]

This is why so many people find Yume Nikki overwhelming. In most item-collection games, you unlock levels as you go. In Yume Nikki, all worlds are wide open at once. And gods help you if you don't know how to get the bicycle.

I'm currently playing Bioshock and Oblivion. With the former, I have but one path I can take, one goal at a time. In the latter, I currently have seven active quests going on, and am content to wander.

I personally enjoy more the freedom to wander as I like, making my own goals.

[Helion]

I like games where, if you do have a goal, the game rather than constraining you to a few tools "because it's level 1" it opens up the whole toolset, gives you a basic (one line) description of them, then asks you to "achieve something". I'd call it "sandbox linearity", it's a rather attractive oxymoron.

[WHMZakeri]

Just posting to say I found Zakeri's analysis of the subject fascinating.

[...]

Fuck the Sonic barrel. Sonic 2 is better anyway ;_;

Thanks. Another way of putting it would be to directly relate the experiences in video games to humanity's working knowledge of the world as a group - For example, before humans had weapons, they main goal was to search around for natural grown food. After were developed weapons, human's goals changed to finding other, lesser animals. Furthermore is the idea of cooking introduced to this concept, were people began grouping off into gatherers, hunters, and preparers. The emphasis switch from exploring to using working knowledge to beget predictable results can be found there as well.

It's harder to relate this to why people are more likely to give up on exploration games, since the difference between a game and real life is that you can give up a game with almost no repercussions. The Child connection is cleaner, since it implies that people who do jump into exploration games easily are those you maintain child-like enthusiasm.

Also, I hated Sonic 2. The only level I actually liked in that game was Mystic Cave Zone, and between never being able to get more then four emeralds and the fact that just a few months ago was the first time I ever faced Silver Sonic, you can just imagine how hard it was for me to enjoy.

[Spidere]

I love Sonic 2! Mystic Cave is the only level I hate.

[lumber_of_the_beast]

Sonic 3 and Knuckles is where it's at

[Suikama]

Most people nowadays have goal-oriented mentality - if you've achieved a goal, you've used your time effectively. If you've accomplished a challenge, the feeling of superiority due to skill/smarts/etc. is present, and that also contributes to satisfaction. A major point to make here is that only the people who are intimately familiar with the game can make goals and challenges, i.e. the game designers, since they know the limits of their game and how everything is connected.

Sandboxes have you do nothing towards any kind of goal (in a hypothetical extreme case, of course). Sure, you may have done a sweet jump on a motorcycle whilst just cruising around, but the ultimate feeling here is "I've done nothing productive with my time."

I found this out for myself when I played around with a flash game on Walfas. The flash has the player being able to throw a rock at Tenshi. "Great," I thought, "whoop-de-doo." Then I noticed the challenge section and realised that the game allows for things that are not immediately obvious, like absurd heights thrown and number of recoils off Tenshi in one throw. Once I had a set of goals, the game became infinitely more fun.

[Hanzo K.]

I actually enjoy games like that.
I get lost in the process, and often find myself wondering what I was supposed to do to advance the storyline, but I eventually get back on track, and usually much stronger than I should be.

[Suikama]

Oh man I just realized this comic explains the Walfas Table leveling game perfectly :ohdear:

[orinrin]

Oh man I just realized this comic explains the Walfas Table leveling game perfectly :ohdear:

Is that a bad thing?  As long as we remain satisfied, what's there to complain about?  :V

[Hanzo K.]

Is that a bad thing?  As long as we remain satisfied, what's there to complain about?  :V

I agree 100%.


Speaking of which, has anyone ever actually bothered to get 100% Completion in a game like this?

I mean, I've got the time, but I lack the ungodly ammount of patience to do it all.
And this is coming from a guy who tends to plan things years in advance.

[Paul Debrion]

I'm a huge fan of gameplay for it's own sake. I think "journeys" can be much sweeter than "destinations".

One thing I've accepted is that you don't accomplish much when you play games, and I've always been fine with that. Rewards can be nice, but I've always thought of them as the icing on the cake and not the cake itself and I'm ok with not having icing if the cake tastes good.

I do have a bit of a crackpot theory that maybe modern gamers are disgusted by the idea that they haven't accomplished anything with their time, which is why they might need their games to dangle candy in front of them and give them pats on the back all the time. I don't take it that seriously though, I'm definitely no psychologist.

[Suikama]

Is that a bad thing?  As long as we remain satisfied, what's there to complain about?  :V

It messes up my sleeping habits :ohdear:


Must... level... mastery.....

[Sen]

I remember when I first played Metroid Prime when it came out. I had never played a Metroid before, and I was totally baffled by what I was doing, and just went wherever I could go. I did manage to find my way through the game, and after researching it a bit, it made a lot more sense to me.

Still, that was my first "non-linear" game I guess, and it was just confusing after being used to being given a clear objective and mission outline or whatever. O

[WHMZakeri]

I'm a huge fan of gameplay for it's own sake. I think "journeys" can be much sweeter than "destinations".

One thing I've accepted is that you don't accomplish much when you play games, and I've always been fine with that. Rewards can be nice, but I've always thought of them as the icing on the cake and not the cake itself and I'm ok with not having icing if the cake tastes good.

There's no dispute that the Journey is much more worth it than the Destination, but I think it's a misnomer to say "Achievement based gameplay" focuses solely on the Destination.

It's true the people sometimes get obsessed with their gamer score, and getting as many of those easy to get achievements as possible so you can look cool, but ultimately those people are just missing the point entirely.

One of the reasons I'm a fan of the SMT series is that they give you a list of all sorts of achievements, just like any other game would, and they give you a list of rules to achieve them. The thing is, each achievement is harder than the next, and the main draw is to complete those things with enough efficiency to last through the ordeal. Each boss battle is a whole onslaught of Attack sets akin to throwing a hurricane at a rickety old house, and your job to to keep that house together until the hurricane passes. Once everything is all done, you get to look back, and relax as you finally see the obstacles you've overcome

Playing the game for the sake of playing the game is alright, this is the mentality I take to all puzzle and rhythm games, since their biggest draw is to waste time and have fun. Achievement based gameplay however has the potential to invoke many more emotions - frustration, determination, and satisfaction and relief - that makes it so much like the icing on the cake. The best part for me however, is finding and discovering new tactics that I can make use of.

[dustyjo]

Also, I hated Sonic 2. The only level I actually liked in that game was Mystic Cave Zone, and between never being able to get more then four emeralds and the fact that just a few months ago was the first time I ever faced Silver Sonic, you can just imagine how hard it was for me to enjoy.

NEVER bring Tails with you. Ever. Motherfucker will lose all your fucking rings in the special stage. Fuck Tails.

Speaking of which, has anyone ever actually bothered to get 100% Completion in a game like this?

I mean, I've got the time, but I lack the ungodly ammount of patience to do it all.
And this is coming from a guy who tends to plan things years in advance.

I've gotten 100% completion in Burnout Paradise, which is essentially a racing game like this.

Then my save got corrupted.

[WHMZakeri]

NEVER bring Sonic with you. Ever. Motherfucker will lose all your fucking rings in the special stage. Fuck Sonic.

[Hanzo K.]

So far I've been working on a little game called "Steambot Chronicles".

I've already beaten the game, and the only things left for me to do are get the rest of the Parts and Plates.
I really want to find all the gems so I can get a Pile Bunker to go with my Gatling Arm.

For obvious reasons.