Author Topic: Labyrinth of Touhou Discussion #3  (Read 178266 times)

Garlyle

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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou Discussion #3
« Reply #900 on: May 10, 2010, 12:14:49 AM »
In One of the Touhou Labyrinth topics, I actually posted and attempted to calculate out how much damage Wriggle would do with poison, and it sure didn't appear to be too huge (At least not enough for me to consider it making up for her low damage output), but I have to give her that she's certainly not useless.  She still has decent tanking ability, for one thing, so she can survive between multiple poundings with Poison.  Unfortunately, her usefulness as an attacker drops massively if the target's got any poison resistance whatsoever, as poison resistance doesn't just affect the chance for poison to be afflicted, but also the strength of the poison if it does occur.  But who knows... if she's working for you, go for it!  I think there was at least a couple battles in the game where I took Wriggle along due to "Not sure what else to bring, might as well" and am pretty sure she added up a significant chunk of damage.

It is worth noting, however, that 7F's poison is utter crap compared to Wriggle's poison (Literally it's like a fourth of the strength or something, which is horrifically low); similarly, her PAR is pretty weak too, but it is a nice little benefit if nothing else.

Anyway

Quote
it gives at least 60-75% in actuality, which is easily one of the best attack buffs in the game).
Not really.  But, with that said, for the main game it sure is one of the best.  There's at least four characters I can think of that I'd rather use the attack buffs of - however, it's due to the multi-target or multi-stat nature of their buffs, and three of those only show up at the very end of the game or in the Plus Disk content.  The problem is that the PAR inflicted is huge if it hits (It's the strongest PAR effect in the game, irritatingly enough).  This isn't a buff you can throw around casually; you need either Meiling or another character with ailment healing, or to only use it on characters with >34 PAR resistance, because you do not want the side effect connecting.  But of course, once that's met, go ahead - her ability to debuff enemy DEF sharply is also a boon to your attackers.

Basically, she'll do better the higher PAR resistance your team is sporting, and the more focused you are on physical attackers as opposed to magical ones.

Re: Labyrinth of Touhou Discussion #3
« Reply #901 on: May 10, 2010, 12:45:42 AM »
Not really.  But, with that said, for the main game it sure is one of the best.
Well, that's what I meant.  I wasn't necessarily giving consideration to single vs multi vs self either.

But it's also completely amazing for composite attackers, particularly
Spoiler:
Flandre
.  One of those and she's unstoppable.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2010, 12:47:19 AM by Esoterica »

Ghaleon

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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou Discussion #3
« Reply #902 on: May 10, 2010, 01:00:51 AM »
The buff definitely can be useful. I still am dubious about the def debuff though. Most bosses don't actually have a huge amount of def to begin with, there is a larger percentage of high def trash than high def bosses IMO. And most bosses late game are either resistant or immune to stat debuffs. so meh.

As for buffing
Spoiler:
flandre
.. I find that buffing characters (especially
Spoiler:
flandre
) for trash is pretty overkill. Might be useful if you have a limited party selection due to tp or something but otherwise that's silly. And bosses, well, her single target nuke isn't actually composite.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2010, 01:04:54 AM by Ghaleon »

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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou Discussion #3
« Reply #903 on: May 10, 2010, 02:23:03 AM »
Ah crud. I'm going to have to be prepared to swap out more team members... I think I can skip out on
Spoiler:
Nitori
, and
Spoiler:
Sanae
and Minoriko seem to be interchangeable...

But I want to know if 7F's poison will overwrite Wriggle's poison if she happens to poison the enemy after Wriggle...

EDIT: I just beat up
Spoiler:
Nitori
on my first try. It was unbelievably close since I didn't know what to expect (and randomly walked into her corner), but my god Wriggle's poison lasted throughout the entire fight... And Aya just barely managed to finish the last hit with around 4k damage.

Pictures because it was unbelievably close.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2010, 02:48:36 AM by Fox Fanatic »

Re: Labyrinth of Touhou Discussion #3
« Reply #904 on: May 10, 2010, 05:52:22 AM »
As for buffing
Spoiler:
flandre
.. I find that buffing characters (especially
Spoiler:
flandre
) for trash is pretty overkill. Might be useful if you have a limited party selection due to tp or something but otherwise that's silly. And bosses, well, her single target nuke isn't actually composite.
Buff one character to wipe the enemy party in one shot, save SP on the rest of the active party.  On earlier floors it wasn't a necessity, but there's stuff on 18F that can survive an unbuffed
Spoiler:
Laveatein
, and I oftentimes find it easier to save the rest of the party's SP and just go ahead and power-nuke 'em.

And her single-target doesn't need to be composite to benefit from +72% attack BV
« Last Edit: May 10, 2010, 05:54:03 AM by Esoterica »

RainfallYoshi

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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou Discussion #3
« Reply #905 on: May 10, 2010, 06:31:12 AM »
Since I've been messing around a ton with Pesco's NG+ file, I noticed something at Chen's boss fight. I had accidentally run right into her when I was definitely under leveled. She was pretty much killing everyone off until I had Flandre in Slot 4. At that point all she did was spam Phoenix Spread Wings. I found that pretty odd considering she would Flight of Idaten the first 3 slots repeatedly. Maybe that 4th slot is programmed not to get hit by single target attacks?

Ghaleon

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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou Discussion #3
« Reply #906 on: May 10, 2010, 06:57:29 AM »
Since I've been messing around a ton with Pesco's NG+ file, I noticed something at Chen's boss fight. I had accidentally run right into her when I was definitely under leveled. She was pretty much killing everyone off until I had Flandre in Slot 4. At that point all she did was spam Phoenix Spread Wings. I found that pretty odd considering she would Flight of Idaten the first 3 slots repeatedly. Maybe that 4th slot is programmed not to get hit by single target attacks?

*blinks*...you mean for this fight only right? please? I get single-nuked on the fourth slot so many times it's not funny. If I hadn't, I probably could have completed the game at level 10 (ok exaggeration but still).

I seem to recall in my last game Chen rocked mya ss with Flight of idaten too (1hko'd china after her buff to boot), and then decided to use pheonix spread wings at a stupid time.

Pesco

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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou Discussion #3
« Reply #907 on: May 10, 2010, 08:46:46 AM »
Buff and debuffs? I hax those onto my enemies too. I think the address for them is based on battle positions, unique to each person's game of course, so you gonna have to figure out the addresses yourselves :D.

Any news of hard figures for stat rebalances?

Ghaleon

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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou Discussion #3
« Reply #908 on: May 10, 2010, 09:21:56 AM »
Buff and debuffs? I hax those onto my enemies too. I think the address for them is based on battle positions, unique to each person's game of course, so you gonna have to figure out the addresses yourselves :D.

Any news of hard figures for stat rebalances?

you mean spell formulas? I thought you wanted to do the stat rebalancing...
Spell rebalancing doesn't look hopeful. I asked the hacker for the English translation patch if the formulas were editable near the spell names and descriptions and he was like "lol no, I don't wanna touch that game again kthxbai"...

Ok so his response was more professional but that seems to be what he was thinking.

Pesco

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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou Discussion #3
« Reply #909 on: May 10, 2010, 09:52:43 AM »
We've already established that I can't do anything about spell formulae. Stat growths and levelling rates. That's all I can do. I suppose I can also make it appear that spells cost less SP, but not really (haven't tested it enough).

Re: Labyrinth of Touhou Discussion #3
« Reply #910 on: May 10, 2010, 01:09:08 PM »
Since I've been messing around a ton with Pesco's NG+ file, I noticed something at Chen's boss fight. I had accidentally run right into her when I was definitely under leveled. She was pretty much killing everyone off until I had Flandre in Slot 4. At that point all she did was spam Phoenix Spread Wings. I found that pretty odd considering she would Flight of Idaten the first 3 slots repeatedly. Maybe that 4th slot is programmed not to get hit by single target attacks?
Different attacks have their own tendencies as to what slots they'll target.  Since at the start of the game you have both Patchy and Marisa, who'll both definitely get wiped in one hit, Flight of Itaden's probably  incapable of hitting slot 4 to keep the backbone of your attack force from getting taken out on the first turn.

Garlyle

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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou Discussion #3
« Reply #911 on: May 10, 2010, 01:57:00 PM »
Different attacks have their own tendencies as to what slots they'll target.  Since at the start of the game you have both Patchy and Marisa, who'll both definitely get wiped in one hit, Flight of Itaden's probably  incapable of hitting slot 4 to keep the backbone of your attack force from getting taken out on the first turn.
This.  There are attacks like Snipe and stuff which definitely do the opposite - they favour hitting the third and fourth slot, just to piss you off.

Also... no clue about what happens if multiple instances of PSN get afflicted at once.  I'd assume it's like PAR, which based on my loose recollection (and not actual data) seemed to only 'overwrite' if the new duration would be greater than what was currently left.

Re: Labyrinth of Touhou Discussion #3
« Reply #912 on: May 10, 2010, 09:43:27 PM »
Something I've been wondering for awhile; who's everyone's tank of choice?

I've been using 10F exclusively (with 7F as a second slot occasionally) since I got her, but I can't help but wonder if I'm missing out by not using Remi.

Ghaleon

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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou Discussion #3
« Reply #913 on: May 10, 2010, 09:54:50 PM »
Something I've been wondering for awhile; who's everyone's tank of choice?

I've been using 10F exclusively (with 7F as a second slot occasionally) since I got her, but I can't help but wonder if I'm missing out by not using Remi.

China is probably the absolute best 1st slot tank. 10F girl is better if you are leveled enough for her to take 0s from everything (which doesn't require a whole lot of leveling actually, but it's definately not natural for that to happen otherwise), or fer her to survive thousand fist khanons/ratsetsu fists/etc.

Remi is kind of like a tank/dps hybrid IMO. I generally dislike hybrids in most games but I think she's pretty good in this one. Thing is her tank overall stats are actually better than china's IMO (due to her better mnd), it's just that her lack of healing stinks. But the ability to self-buff her defense is also great. But regardless of if you focus her on a tank or not, she can actually do some pretty mean dps in a boss fight. Probably not the best choice if your party setup has means of buffing the atk of other characters easily and quickly though (like if you use renko charge alot, or iku's atk buff, etc). But if you aren't using
Spoiler:
renko or Iku
, you can probably build Remi to be a top-tier dpser IMO, who can take a hit better than anybody else.

I don't like squishy hp tanks, not in this game, not in any game. Honestly though, I think China and 10F girl are the only 2 real choices for tanks, everyone else is only situationally good compared to those two, and even the 10F tank is only situationally good if you aren't grinding levels. It's one of the biggest balance issues of this game IMO.

Oh, 18F person might make a good tank too, haven't really used that character though, it's against my religion to.



Re: Labyrinth of Touhou Discussion #3
« Reply #914 on: May 10, 2010, 10:09:09 PM »
Oh, 18F person might make a good tank too, haven't really used that character though, it's against my religion to.
Don't worry, that makes two of us. :V  Statistically though, that character's got 10F's defensive stats with the last 12F's affinities and China's HP, so 18F's probably the best potential tank.

Well, guess I'll pour some skill points in Remi and see how she does.

Ghaleon

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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou Discussion #3
« Reply #915 on: May 10, 2010, 10:23:06 PM »
Don't worry, that makes two of us. :V  Statistically though, that character's got 10F's defensive stats with the last 12F's affinities and China's HP, so 18F's probably the best potential tank.

No, 18F Def and Mnd growth is only 10, 10F tank's is 12. Not to mention 10F tank levels up noticeably faster. Remi's stat growth is 10 Def, and 9 Mnd, with a hp growth of 19, 18F character only has 16 hp growth. Remi is better statistically (if you factor her being slightly higher level) 18F has great elemental resists though.

The only reason why people don't really see remi as a great tank is because her level up rate is really bad and 18F has even worse leveling. I know some people use 18F as a tank though so I figure I should mention it when I was qqing over the lack of tank choice in this game.

edit: Mind you I just checked 18F skill level costs, they are better than Remi's.. In any case I still doubt 18F is the best potential tank, Especially since 18F also lacks a reuseable skill that benefits tanking (curse of vlad buffs def and mnd, china has a heal, 10F has an uber defense/mnd buff)
« Last Edit: May 10, 2010, 10:28:24 PM by Ghaleon »

Re: Labyrinth of Touhou Discussion #3
« Reply #916 on: May 10, 2010, 11:02:15 PM »
Especially since 18F also lacks a reuseable skill that benefits tanking (curse of vlad buffs def and mnd, china has a heal, 10F has an uber defense/mnd buff)
Well, unless you turn spell animations off.

RainfallYoshi

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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou Discussion #3
« Reply #917 on: May 11, 2010, 12:40:27 AM »
Meiling is pretty much permanently in my first party slot, but my party takes along 10F and 7F as well. Probably not the best idea to take along 3 tanks in a party but oh well!

I think I've finally gotten settled on a party I like now so progress should be coming along. I'd like to see what the more experience people think of the party though. Mind you this is early game so SP costs are going to be an issue.

Meiling
Remilia
Reimu
Marisa
Patchcouli
Chen
Cirno
Alice
Minoriko
Spoiler:
Suwako
Komachi
Tenshi


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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou Discussion #3
« Reply #918 on: May 11, 2010, 12:50:36 AM »
Meiling is pretty much permanently in my first party slot, but my party takes along 10F and 7F as well. Probably not the best idea to take along 3 tanks in a party but oh well!

You don't consider Remilia to be a tank?

Anyways, I'm just curious as to why Cirno is in your team. Everything she can do, 7F can do... pretty much better, plus more.

RainfallYoshi

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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou Discussion #3
« Reply #919 on: May 11, 2010, 12:53:18 AM »
Again, early game SP costs mostly. Cirno has cheap and effective spells for trash kills right now. Although I'm up for suggestions on who could replace her if you have ideas.

I'm currently on Floor 2 again since I've been messing around doing crazy things before I actually decided to try to get through this game again.

Re: Labyrinth of Touhou Discussion #3
« Reply #920 on: May 11, 2010, 01:48:33 AM »
Meiling is pretty much permanently in my first party slot, but my party takes along 10F and 7F as well. Probably not the best idea to take along 3 tanks in a party but oh well!

I think I've finally gotten settled on a party I like now so progress should be coming along. I'd like to see what the more experience people think of the party though. Mind you this is early game so SP costs are going to be an issue.

Meiling
Remilia
Reimu
Marisa
Patchcouli
Chen
Cirno
Alice
Minoriko
Spoiler:
Komachi
Tenshi
Given the point in the game you're at, that's probably fine.  Though, 10F's probably not going to be terribly effective for tanking at that level.  Perhaps
Spoiler:
Yuka
?  Her first spell's nice and cheap with low delay.  Also,
Spoiler:
Keine
is proving invaluable on my NG+.

Otherwise yeah, there really isn't much that's good for a beginning party other than, well, the beginning characters.

MysTeariousYukari

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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou Discussion #3
« Reply #921 on: May 11, 2010, 03:35:50 AM »
I used Meiling, 7F and 18F as Tanks, with 18F also being back-up DPS. Now, everyone who complains about 18Fs Level Rate, My Reimu had only 10-13 Levels on 18F. Yes that makes a good couple thousand points in numerous stats later, but overall 18F keeps up with the party well.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2010, 09:29:24 PM by MystearicaUtsuho »

Re: Labyrinth of Touhou Discussion #3
« Reply #922 on: May 13, 2010, 04:53:39 AM »
i found out you can move the bgm files out of the folder and the game still works. the music gets pretty annoying after some time and its really damn loud.

Pesco

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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou Discussion #3
« Reply #923 on: May 19, 2010, 05:10:42 PM »
Once I''m done with exams, I want to do a 4-girl only run. Yes I will be cheating to get the exp to cut down on grinding, but all floors will be fully explored at least. Obv NG+ with characters only, no items. SKP and EXP don't matter since I'm hacking those figures. I also won't be using a ridiculously overlevelled team, that would trivialize the game too much.

Suggestions for the team? Basic setup I prefer is tank / speed / healer / mage.

Re: Labyrinth of Touhou Discussion #3
« Reply #924 on: May 19, 2010, 07:58:43 PM »
Once I''m done with exams, I want to do a 4-girl only run. Yes I will be cheating to get the exp to cut down on grinding, but all floors will be fully explored at least. Obv NG+ with characters only, no items. SKP and EXP don't matter since I'm hacking those figures. I also won't be using a ridiculously overlevelled team, that would trivialize the game too much.

Suggestions for the team? Basic setup I prefer is tank / speed / healer / mage.
Spoiler:
Tenshi
Spoiler:
Aya
Reimu/
Spoiler:
Sanae
, or Rumia for lulz
Spoiler:
Yuka

Pesco

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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou Discussion #3
« Reply #925 on: May 19, 2010, 08:02:48 PM »
Quote
Rumia for lulz

Why you hate me so ;_;

Serela

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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou Discussion #3
« Reply #926 on: May 19, 2010, 09:53:07 PM »
Why you hate me so ;_;
Alternatively, you could just use all the bad/rarely used characters+Reimu/Sanae/Minoriko/Tanker. Which may actually be realistic without hacking or ridiculous grinding.

But yeah, if you use Rumia for this, you should hack her stat growth up a bit :V

Sakuya for speed wouldn't be too bad of an idea, since she's got nice defensive stats. Great bit better ones then Aya, at any rate, and since she'd be permanent second slot... well.
Spoiler:
Yuka
is probably a great choice since she's got good stats all over, and then you need whoever is best for tanking. Which is maybe not 10F girl, since defense ignoring attacks will 1shot her and then you have no tank, which for a 4 girl run will KILL you.

Reimu is mandatory. No choice. You NEED her group heal and defense buff, plus she can inflict PAR. Meiling would be a great tank choice since she's, y'know, awesometank, plus can heal status effects and self-heal. Reimu's heal won't be full-healing people, so Meiling's supplementary heals and self-healing would be very helpful.

EDIT:Ehh,
Spoiler:
Yuka
's stats aren't that great. Enough to consider her, though.
Spoiler:
Keine
could be considered.
Spoiler:
Ran
has great defenses and magic attacks, although her buffs aren't anything special in a 4 girl run.

Meiling/Sakuya/Reimu doesn't sound too bad, although you might want to switch Sakuya for someone tankier instead.
Spoiler:
Keine, Ran, Yuka, Rinnosuke
Remi, Wriggle, and maybe Suika have good enough defensive stats to be worth considering, after taking into account other things as well, of course.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2010, 10:06:30 PM by NeoSerela »
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Pesco

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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou Discussion #3
« Reply #927 on: May 20, 2010, 10:40:57 AM »
Forgot about hacking growths. In that case, which 4 girls moveset should I do the run with? Anyone *can* become any role except healer/buffer.

RainfallYoshi

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Re: Labyrinth of Touhou Discussion #3
« Reply #928 on: May 20, 2010, 08:31:54 PM »
I totally submit my vote for
Spoiler:
Team 9: Wriggle, Mystia, Cirno, and Rumia
. Dooo eeet!

Re: Labyrinth of Touhou Discussion #3
« Reply #929 on: May 20, 2010, 08:55:30 PM »
I totally submit my vote for
Spoiler:
Team 9: Wriggle, Mystia, Cirno, and Rumia
. Dooo eeet!
I second this. v;