Himelander Mafia Thread (Over! Scum Win!)

[Ranmilia]

Similarly I have been playing with Ciato for some time and find it quite unbelievable that she would defend Pesco, who was... just... wow.  That stuff would've gotten him banned on the spot where we come from and you're frustrated with me?  Naaaah okay I know you're scum, sorry, it must kinda suck. 

Kitten - that power removes Hime Star effects from a day and lets us get out of rash challenges.  Why on earth would you want to use it today?  Save it for a day where such things happen.  (Like yesterday.  Why on earth would you not have used it yesterday?)

Cid - Okay wait what?  So you have no role or explanation to offer, you just wanted to get in on taking a head so badly that you called stops on discussion to go oh please please let me challenge tomorrow?  Uhhhhhh no, I certainly don't have faith in you, that's actually incredibly scummy of you to do all this.   

What is with everyone here.  I guess I'd like Kiro or Kefit to challenge Ciato.  Mysteriousness.  Apologies for slight aggravation.

[Kitten4u]

Kitten - that power removes Hime Star effects from a day and lets us get out of rash challenges.  Why on earth would you want to use it today?  Save it for a day where such things happen.  (Like yesterday.  Why on earth would you not have used it yesterday?)

I would have loved to use this yesterday, but I can only use it BEFORE someone challenges someone.  So if someone quick challenges I cannot use it until the next day, as I said before.

And like I said, I'm not sure if today is the best time to use it.  I have no idea when the best time to use it would be, so I figured it would be best to throw the option out there.

[Bardiche]

This is where I wish I had some method to prove to you all I am without a shadow of a doubt town. I suppose if I challenge Ciato now I'll go down like the titanic, huh- because really honestly I've been playing with the idea for a while but thinking it's scum I'm pretty much afraid the bad side of that gamble nets scum a head.

SO WHILE WE BURN DAYLIGHT, can we finally think up a way to resolutely get a challenge on Ciato going before we get RNG'd?

[Edible]

No challenges have yet been made.

You have 12 hours before Mai's Vengeful Ghost makes two random bitches fight to the death.

[FinnKaenbyou]

1.  "But the players who you think are town may be scum" has absolutely nothing to do with WIFOM and that you say otherwise means you're grasping for buzzwords.

But your argument resolves to be 'Players you think are town are more likely to be scum than players you think are scum'. What the hell?

2.  Setting up today's match as Alex versus Ciato was also Kilga's last instruction as seen on page 10.  To say that advocating that strategy is scummy seems pretty stupid.

And Kilga can't be wrong? He can't make a mistake?

I...don't understand why exactly K4U claimed. The ability to flip the result of a contest sounds...decidedly scummy. Really really REALLY scummy. Disgustingly, absurdly, WHOA CRAZY scummy. Scummier than Pesco (and trust me, that's saying something).

Alex turning around and saying 'NO THAT'S NOT YOUR ROLE' is a double-failure. Because, y'know, Carth can't make up NEW roles? Don't give her an excuse to backtrack, dammit!

I now officially REALLY want K4U to burn. Scummiest roleclaim ever.

[Bardiche]

Alex never said "NO THAT'S NOT YOUR ROLE" or anything similar to it. And um.

Are we reading the same pages? Kitten4u says her power relates to turning the day into a regular Mafia day.

I.e. everyone is an eligible lynch candidate
You vote for who you want lynched
Person with majority votes gets lynched

How does this flip the results?

[Kitten4u]

I...don't understand why exactly K4U claimed. The ability to flip the result of a contest sounds...decidedly scummy. Really really REALLY scummy. Disgustingly, absurdly, WHOA CRAZY scummy. Scummier than Pesco (and trust me, that's saying something).

Flip the result of a contest...? Where the heck did you get that from?

Okay, since some people aren't getting what I do AT ALL, I'll go ahead and do it in list form instead of paragraph form.

-I must use my ability before a challenge has been made.  If someone challenges someone else I cannot use my ability until the next day.

-My ability changes the nature of the day.  Instead of 1 vs 1 challenges I turn the game into a normal game of Mafia for a day.

-It only lasts one day.  The next day will be a 1 vs 1 challenge unless someone else does something to change things or I use it again.

-It's a 1-shot ability.  Although I can get more charges if I win duels. 

-Scum cannot claim a head unless they hammer a townie.  If they hammer a scum buddy they cannot claim a head.

The reason I claimed was to throw another option out there for us to use.  I do not know when the best time to use this is, so I wanted to get the opinions of the other people out there.  It's been two days and no one's been NKed so I'm assuming there isn't one.  I see no reason NOT to claim if there's no chance I'll die because I'm a PR.  I'm not really getting why you're finding this scummy. 

[El Cideon]

Alex (and others who made similar statements): I am being deliberately vague, yes, because I don't know what roles scum has at their disposal and I don't want to make it easier for them to counter things. I am aware this isn't as helpful as it could be but have no real choice; I don't imagine I'll get more than one shot and don't want to make it any more likely than it already is that it'll get fouled up by scum intervention. Given K4U's claim, and since I'm being pressed on the matter, I may as well confirm that this--

It seems possible/probable that winning challenges replenishes charges of limited use abilities?

--seems to be a running theme for this game's power roles. I start with zero charges. This--

I also dislike Cid's proposition on the sheer fact that he is outright pretty much trying to get a kill here.

--is in fact true, though in addition to a desire to scumhunt. If I need to kill someone to use my role, I want to make sure whoever goes down is the scummiest player in sight. I presently think this is Ciato, hence why I want to take advantage of the fact that there's someone around whose guilt I'm confident of. I hate asking for a duel and I hate claiming, but there seems no other way of arranging to have a say in whatever challenge I'm involved in. The longer I waited, the less likely it seemed that would be, and I'm already worried about being dragged into the next 2-vs-2 match once this is used.

Maybe I'm being too paranoid about claiming given that there's no traditional nightphase here, but I have to assume Carth put something unpleasant on the scum side to balance out the town power roles; roleblocker sitting on me in the future is probably already a possibility if such a thing exists in this game, but even if it doesn't, I'm not willing to bait any more specific roles there might be by going into explicit detail about what I have and what I intend to do with it. I will look on more specific rolefishery with suspicion.

Yes, there are still blanks here and that may not reassure people. If this doesn't leave you confident enough to put me in a match, then I'll abide by that decision. But I remain skeptical that Alex vs. Ciato as today's match is in our best interest despite Kilga approving of it. Jam covered this well: most of us seem to think there's at most one scum in the pair of them, and if we guess wrong on who that is then we've given scum a kill. I believe the culprit here is Ciato but always acknowledge the possibility that I could be wrong and want to minimize the chance of making that error. Kiro looks pretty safe to me personally if we want another challenger; hasn't said anything to set off alarms. I'd really like some broad feedback here rather than just from the two people who said "No, that's not good enough" (one of whom was Chaos anyway, who I've felt vaguely unsettled about for a while now. I'm going to reread some posts to see if I can properly articulate why).

Ninja'd. Can't say I agree with Rou. It's an unusual setup and the way K4U described the role doesn't sound unbelievable to me.

[FinnKaenbyou]

When she said that she could change it to normal so 'whoever gets the majority gets lynched', I didn't realise she meant changing all the damn rules of the setup. I thought it just got rid of the one rule that makes no freaking sense, and therefore gave a good reason as to WHY it didn't make sense. She never made any clarification herself, and it felt like Alex was almost tutoring her on what to say.

Disregard me. I'm a moron as usual. >_>

[Chaore]

You will soon receive a message that should hopefully remove that 'supposed' part of the argument.

Also it's TOTALLY worth killing for I could have random rants of great zeal and love.

Confirming this now that I got the message. Fine fine, Yes, You have the power of the message button.

Also where the hell is everyone.

[UncertainJakutten]

Ok, I'm up to Chaos' first D3 post, and I have to say...

WHAT THE FUCK IS WRONG WITH YOU AND ROU!?

Dear God, if you are going to claim Kiro is town, BACK IT THE FUCK UP!

I think we need to do Alex vs. Ciato. But I find Alex rather townie, so that would be why.

So, Fakevote: Alex vs. Ciato

I'll also admit I glazed over early D3 walls since I'm in a hurry.

Or we could take a third option.  I can change the rules of the day to be like a normal game of Mafia (majority of votes = lynch etc.)  Whoever hammers will get a victory, but scum cannot hammer one of their buddies and get a victory (I already asked Carth for clarifacation on this).  If Ciato or Alex flip town we can look at the person that hammers more closely at least and if they flip scum...well they flip scum.  I can fire this off any time before the challenge phase starts, so we have plenty of time to discuss stuff still.  I'm not sure if this would be any better than Kiro's idea, but I figured I should throw it out there.

Well then. I like this idea.

Oh, CHAOS is still "waffle waffle speculate speculate info info" NO ANALYSIS.

Bardiche once again proves he's scum trying to preserve one of his buddies.

Once again, Alex. WHY IS KIRO TOWN!?

I...don't understand why exactly K4U claimed. The ability to flip the result of a contest sounds...decidedly scummy. Really really REALLY scummy. Disgustingly, absurdly, WHOA CRAZY scummy. Scummier than Pesco (and trust me, that's saying something).

Where in the nine hells did you get this? Are you even reading?

Flip the result of a contest...? Where the heck did you get that from?

Rou being a fucking moron, as usual. Sorry Rou.

At least Rou admits he's a fucking moron.

This was mostly a skim so I probably don't have many opinions in this post.

I want Rou, Alex, and CHAOS to explain themselves on "Oh, Kiro is totally town"

I already explained why he's scum.

[Bardiche]

UncertainKitten: Funny you should mention that, Alex pretty much mirrored my sentiments. Did Alex just prove he's scum trying to save a scumbuddy?

Oh, wait, I've been advocating killing Ciato, you say Alex is town. Man, are you sure you're not on some personal vendetta against me here because I tried to accuse you of being scum by highlighting your earlier behaviour?

Also, big surprise: this game's pretty much about figuring alignment from actions, and thus by extension, you guessed it, behaviour. If you're going to be all rose-tinted on me about that, kindly fix yourself some good tea, dip in some warm water and try to cooly rationalise whether you're thinking straight?

[Edible]

You have 7.45-ish hours to issue a challenge.

[UncertainJakutten]

Also, big surprise: this game's pretty much about figuring alignment from actions, and thus by extension, you guessed it, behaviour. If you're going to be all rose-tinted on me about that, kindly fix yourself some good tea, dip in some warm water and try to cooly rationalise whether you're thinking straight?

Case on you exists. Admittedly, I missed the Ciato death advocating, so I must retract my earlier accusation of "saving a scum buddy"

[Chaore]

Back up why Rou is town again, UK? I missed that.

I'll say outright, I have no issues with Kiro due to the fact he really hasn't triggered any flags. Before you start, no, I'm with Kilga's call here, Kiro doesn't just post set up crap.

If you have anything really good to bring up, please do so in a comprehensible format this time. I'd really like to hear why you're so freaking dead set on Kiro being scum, because I do not see it.

Also, before you assume I'm claiming something, Read. I'm simply saying I have NO REASON TO BELIEVE KIRO IS SCUM, therefore do not have a reason to object. I am not outright saying a person is town.

You seem to understand when I'm not making any definite claims fairly well, why not this time?

[UncertainJakutten]

Back up why Rou is town again, UK? I missed that.

He just is. I'll admit that there is no real reasoning beyond he can't be scum. I wish I could explain it better.

I'll say outright, I have no issues with Kiro due to the fact he really hasn't triggered any flags. Before you start, no, I'm with Kilga's call here, Kiro doesn't just post set up crap.

Then show me. PROVE that my accusations are wrong. I'd prefer Kiro do it but if you three insist on defending him...c'est la vie.

If you have anything really good to bring up, please do so in a comprehensible format this time. I'd really like to hear why you're so freaking dead set on Kiro being scum, because I do not see it.

I linked every goddamn post that makes him scummy. If you can't read it, Tough
Fucking
Cookies

(Lazy fuckass)

Also, before you assume I'm claiming something, Read. I'm simply saying I have NO REASON TO BELIEVE KIRO IS SCUM, therefore do not have a reason to object. I am not outright saying a person is town.

Where the fuck did this come from? I never said you were claiming anything :S.

[Bardiche]

Could we chuck this hostility out the window? I'm not a regular here, but I'm not fond of overtly present hostility in a simple party game.

[Chaore]

Where the fuck did this come from? I never said you were claiming anything :S.

Dear God, if you are going to claim Kiro is town, BACK IT THE FUCK UP!
....
I want Rou, Alex, and CHAOS to explain themselves on "Oh, Kiro is totally town"

Around there, I'd say.

I linked every goddamn post that makes him scummy. If you can't read it, Tough
Fucking
Cookies

(Lazy fuckass)

Yes. I saw those. I did not come to the same conclusion. Posts alone do not make a person scummy, and your reasoning is mostly bad or I do not find it true.

[UncertainJakutten]

Around there, I'd say.

I suppose if that's how you mean claim. But...the thing is, you ARE claiming Kiro is town implicitly with the post I disliked.

You know, this part:

He hasn't done much like mostly everyone, but he has done fairly good for what he has.

HOW DOES HE LOOK GOOD!?

Yes. I saw those. I did not come to the same conclusion. Posts alone do not make a person scummy, and your reasoning is mostly bad or I do not find it true.

Then show your work!

I showed mine. PROVE ME WRONG IF YOU THINK I AM! I have NO reason to believe your words without evidence.

Could we chuck this hostility out the window? I'm not a regular here, but I'm not fond of overtly present hostility in a simple party game.

I'm sorry. Stupidity really puts me on edge after having to deal with an hour and a half of it IRL. I was hoping there wouldn't be more stupid when I came home.

[Bardiche]

That's about how I felt when you began trolling me for trying to accuse you of being scum. In this game of uncertainties, it's only natural we'll disagree or have wildly conflicting ideas. Like I stepped back and re-evaluated what I was pursuing, perhaps it's a good idea for you to do the same.

I recommend taking a break from the game until you are calmer. It does no one any good if you fly off the handle like that; the point in this game is to have fun, and needless antagonising wouldn't very much get us to that point, no? Not to mention getting angry all the time must be triflingly uncomfortable.

In the end, even if you disagree with it, "majority makes right" is the theme of the game. We have precious few hours left to us to make a uniform decision regarding the challenge of the day.



Right now, I am still fairly against Cid being chosen as town's champion. I acknowledge that I believe his claim regarding his power possibly starting with zero charges: as I presented, Cop would be terribly overpowered in a game as this, so forcing town to win a duel to gain a single charge of that power seems like a logical and fairly understandable setup balancing.

The issue here, of course, is that I am unsure whether Cid's power is in service to town or in service to scum.

To put an edge in Cid's argument, however, he does offer to go for the one most of us agree is very likely to be scum; if Ciato ends up not being scum, we face the dilemma of being unable to fully accuse him of being scum due to our own convictions regarding the matter.


If people insist that I am scum, I suggest you have Cid finish me off. My power is fairly useless to town, and I am willing to gamble a single victory count for scum over a possibly very beneficial power to town.

I do suggest confirming Cid's power by way of executing him after he has demonstrated a valid use of it, however.

[Bardiche]

I convinced myself during the writing of the above that gambling on Cid may yield off big. Taking a risk to summon forth the witch is entirely my style, it's within my DESIREs to see town win.

Let me amend that I meant to confirm Cid's alignment by way of execution. I have no doubt that I will not flip any role name possibly linked to that of anonymous messenger, but my alignment and support of town will be fairly evident: I propose to use that mechanic to confirm Cid's support of town.

Especially if his ability is, indeed, the Cop as theorised and would nail us at least a single, confirmed Town. Insert theorising about possible scum anti-measures; if anyone's been hit with any, care to bring this to light?

[UncertainJakutten]

Bardiche, you forget the Kinzo seems to DIE everytime he tries that ritual

(Well, important spoilers aside of course )

But I did my step back. I'd provided my evidence for Kiro scum. I want it countered, or I at least want support for the allegation that Kiro is town. I'm not going to accept "It's Kiro, he's great "

That's about how I felt when you began trolling me for trying to accuse you of being scum. In this game of uncertainties, it's only natural we'll disagree or have wildly conflicting ideas. Like I stepped back and re-evaluated what I was pursuing, perhaps it's a good idea for you to do the same.

I love how you are subtly accusing me of being stupid. That's not going to allow you to achieve your goal. I also wasn't trolling. You were just flat wrong.

[Bardiche]

No, no. I will not start to argue again. Regardless of what you intended, that is how it came off to me. You may perform any song or dance to say how wrong I may have been, but appearances can deceive, and they so did appear to me as what I presented them as.

And how was I trying to "subtly call you stupid"? I was drawing a parallel between the both of us in that I, too, at some point felt rather aggravated with people seemly finding some things particularly acceptable which I found wholly unacceptable. If I subtly implied you were stupid, I would do myself the same discourtesy. It does us ill good to bring up the matter again, so let us leave it at that.

Although perhaps it is important to stress that I would never implicate myself as being stupid. That'd be stupid.




Also Kinzo is alive in my heart GOOOOOOOOLDSMIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIITH!

[UncertainJakutten]

*kinzoface.jpg*

We shall bury the current hachet over love for Umineko

I still think you're scum though...sorry .

As for the stupidity thing:

Was this:

That's about how I felt when you began trolling me for trying to accuse you of being scum. In this game of uncertainties, it's only natural we'll disagree or have wildly conflicting ideas. Like I stepped back and re-evaluated what I was pursuing, perhaps it's a good idea for you to do the same.

In response to this:

I'm sorry. Stupidity really puts me on edge after having to deal with an hour and a half of it IRL. I was hoping there wouldn't be more stupid when I came home.

? Or another part of my post?

[Ranmilia]

Kiro is one of the towniest people to me right now mostly by virtue of posting intelligent things and not posting crazy things.  I'm not sure why I'm being attacked for that, but since UK is saying "Rou is totally town he just is!" in the same breath as "Why are you saying people are townie!" I don't even know what to reply there.

Ciato vs me is objectively a very silly idea and should not be done unless people are 100% on me being town and Ciato being scum, and I don't think people are.  (Or vice versa but there's even less support for that.)  It is nearly guaranteed that one of us is scum and for people who are unsure of our alignments, calling me vs Ciato wrong is a 50/50 risk of giving scum a head.  With having others execute us instead, the executioner MIGHT be scum but the chance of that is far less than 50%.  It is just obviously safer.

The other possibility here is that both Ciato and myself are town.  While I don't believe this to be the case since Ciato is playing very scummily, I realized I was wrong earlier - it MIGHT make sense for Tom to have set up two townies like this if scum have someone that can come in and go "Wait guys let me clean them both up" in... exactly the manner Cid has done.  In fact swooping in wanting to be executioner here looks very good for scum in general.  I don't like giving the job to anyone who comes out and says they want it and can't or won't give full disclosure on why. 

Assuming Cid is townie, he's already as much as said "I've got a really good role" to the scum the instant he asked to challenge yesterday, I don't know what sort of roles might be in this game or how they'd work but any countermeasures scum could employ are assuredly lined up in his direction already.  Maybe I'm wrong and he does have a super townie role that will save us all but I'm just not willing to buy that offhand, not when it'd be so tempting for scum to fakeclaim the same thing to nab a head or two.  Or, heck, claim it for real.

That all said... I'm still confident enough on Ciato being scum to be not completely opposed to going along with it.  Egggh.

On K4U's power, I missed the part where she said it could only be used before a challenge was issued.  My mistake, sorry about that, it makes more sense now.

[Bardiche]

I still think you're scum though...sorry .

That's okay, I think the same thing of you. At least it's mutual. Now if only it was lo--must. resist. Or else I will be bludgeoned.

As for the stupidity thing:

Was this:

In response to this:

? Or another part of my post?

Yeah. It should read:

You: "I am angry because I feel surrounded by stupidity!"
Me: "That's how I felt, but ultimately I was wrong about being surrounded by stupidity and I think you are, too."

[UncertainJakutten]

Kiro is one of the towniest people to me right now mostly by virtue of posting intelligent things and not posting crazy things.  I'm not sure why I'm being attacked for that, but since UK is saying "Rou is totally town he just is!" in the same breath as "Why are you saying people are townie!" I don't even know what to reply there.

Well, I'd like counter evidence. The main difference is that there's not a case on Rou. There is on Kiro, even if others think it sucks. You know, despite no one ever countering it

As for "posting intelligent things and not crazy things"...how is this implicitly townie? Yes, I know I'm asking a hazardous question. Scum can post "intelligent things" that don't actually help the town much. And that's what I feel Kiro has been doing.

Ciato vs me is objectively a very silly idea and should not be done unless people are 100% on me being town and Ciato being scum, and I don't think people are.  (Or vice versa but there's even less support for that.)  It is nearly guaranteed that one of us is scum and for people who are unsure of our alignments, calling me vs Ciato wrong is a 50/50 risk of giving scum a head.  With having others execute us instead, the executioner MIGHT be scum but the chance of that is far less than 50%.  It is just obviously safer.

I see your logic...and I must say I can't really counter it. If we choose NOT to use K4U's power today, I support this challenge pair:

Unfakevote, Fakevote Rou vs. Ciato

The other possibility here is that both Ciato and myself are town.  While I don't believe this to be the case since Ciato is playing very scummily, I realized I was wrong earlier - it MIGHT make sense for Tom to have set up two townies like this if scum have someone that can come in and go "Wait guys let me clean them both up" in... exactly the manner Cid has done.  In fact swooping in wanting to be executioner here looks very good for scum in general.  I don't like giving the job to anyone who comes out and says they want it and can't or won't give full disclosure on why.

This is a little more unsteady but still quite logical. We have two sides of a coin here. Is it a super role or is it scum...and I'm not sure how to resolve that :S

Unfortunately we can't really use K4U's role to resolve it either. I guess at best we throw Cid at someone we find incredibly scummy. Though I guess Ciato fits there almost universally.

You: "I am angry because I feel surrounded by stupidity!"
Me: "That's how I felt, but ultimately I was wrong about being surrounded by stupidity and I think you are, too."

If you read Chaos' posts, it's hard to maintain any doubt about being surrounded by stupidity.

That's okay, I think the same thing of you. At least it's mutual. Now if only it was lo--must. resist. Or else I will be bludgeoned.

Sorry, I'm taken. What's funny is you haven't really tried to further your case.

[Bardiche]

It seems a fairly pointless exercise by now; it's better to focus on matters at hand due to our dwindling amount of time. I'll revisit my thoughts regarding that when it becomes prevalent.



Also I was joking. I'm not into cats. I like parakeets more.


As for the matter at hand, I strongly strongly strongly strongly strongly don't know whether I can support anyone. If people can vouch for Rou's, uh, sometimes mistaken assessments of the situation as being a general trait of his, I can be more confident in supporting that.

I must add that I share UncertainKitten's concerns regarding Kiro; while I don't think he's scum per se, I don't feel as confident about him as others seem to do.

This is an impass?, but if you were to promote Kiro to town champion I would definitely vote for his survival.

[UncertainJakutten]

As for the matter at hand, I strongly strongly strongly strongly strongly don't know whether I can support anyone. If people can vouch for Rou's, uh, sometimes mistaken assessments of the situation as being a general trait of his, I can be more confident in supporting that.

It's hard to explain. He's almost always quite mistaken regardless of alignment...he...just does it in different ways that are rather subtle. If you want examples, see the RPG Mafia Archive thread Pesco has stickied.

It seems a fairly pointless exercise by now; it's better to focus on matters at hand due to our dwindling amount of time. I'll revisit my thoughts regarding that when it becomes prevalent.

I disagree since I feel it's easier for people to slip under the radar that way. But whatever.

I must add that I share UncertainKitten's concerns regarding Kiro; while I don't think he's scum per se, I don't feel as confident about him as others seem to do.

This is an impass?, but if you were to promote Kiro to town champion I would definitely vote for his survival.

Why would you ever do this? Unless you mean Kiro vs. Ciato where I'd probably flip a coin and stick to it. But this feels contradictory.

[Bardiche]

I find Ciato scummier than Kiro. In those cases I will always vote to preserve the one I feel is less likely to be scum.

Ciato gives me all these warm and fuzzy feelings akin to the sort you get when you just drove your father's truck against a tree when you weren't even supposed to touch that truck, and your father comes running with a red head while angrily shaking his fist at you.

The sort that go, "Bad news, bro".