Keyboard, Controller, or Arcade Stick?

[Kinzo the Astro Curious]

New keyboard aquired. PCB, or ESoD to test?

I haven't 1cc'd either for sucky keyboard prior, not having vsync back then, and just plain stupid deaths. Now is the time to try again! 

[Udongein]

New keyboard aquired. PCB, or ESoD to test?

I haven't 1cc'd either for sucky keyboard prior, not having vsync back then, and just plain stupid deaths. Now is the time to try again! 

PCB.

On topic: My keyboard, as the faded arrow keys will tell.

[Kinzo the Astro Curious]

lol, I tried them both. Somehow, my bomb reactions were so slow that I was bombing AFTER respawn. oh dear. I did really well on PCB though till stage 3. at which point it turned into a spoonfest.

[orinrin]

I bought an cheap arcade stick for about $10 and its actually pretty fun using it.

I think I might actually spend money on a quality stick now that I know its worth an investment.

[Chronojet ⚙ Dragon]

I feel that

Spoiler:

pad

isn't that responsive.

What.

If you've gotten really comfortable with using one, don't switch. It's really hard to get used to something else. For example. I just tried playing Touhou 10.5 with a joystick. it's as hard as hell to move around.

I'd say just use what you think is easiest to work with.

[Kinzo the Astro Curious]

I bought an cheap arcade stick for about $10 and its actually pretty fun using it.

I think I might actually spend money on a quality stick now that I know its worth an investment.

Maybe I need one with a bomb thumb button lol. I just cant seem to get my left hand to sync with the right at the moment resulting in comic StB death or utter bomb failure.

[Lucarius]

http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm7189154

I would love to play Touhou on this.

I play both fighter and danmaku with a keyboard.

Most of the better Japanese players play with controllers, but a few who surpass the better play with a keyboard.

[Kefit]

Oh hey one of these topics.

I use keyboard exclusively for the shooting games. My skill with the arrow keys was built up by years of emulator play on keyboard in my youth, followed by a couple of years of hardcore one handed Stepmania playing.

I once tried a ps2 pad, and the less said about that the better. And joysticks make me die in easy platforming games, I have no idea how anyone uses them for anything.

[orinrin]

Joysticks should be called prosticks.

[MysTeariousYukari]

I've been keyboarding PCB still, I can make it to Yuyu-chan on Hard, still can't beat her T-T I can make it to Chen in the EX stage, but I always die on her 1st Non-spell or her Oni Sign "Red Oni, Blue Oni", aka You Lose "Red Pill, Blue Pill"

[Chronojet ⚙ Dragon]

I've been keyboarding PCB still, I can make it to Yuyu-chan on Hard, still can't beat her T-T I can make it to Chen in the EX stage, but I always die on her 1st Non-spell or her Oni Sign "Red Oni, Blue Oni", aka You Lose "Red Pill, Blue Pill"

Ugh. At least I can make it to the Prismrivers on Lunatic and reach Ran... with a bit of luck...
Go Keyboard.

[tone]

I play with an arcade stick. Not a fan of pads, and I don't like keyboard either, mainly due to me being confined to a laptop. It's just not comfortable.

[Widermelonz]

I've just recently acquired an arcade stick, but it doesn't translate to shumps as well as I expected it to be. It works wonders with fighters though.

I have one complaint about it though. I'm not sure if this is prevalent among arcade sticks or if it's just mine, but whenever I move the stick in a direction it makes a loud clicking sound. Well, it's not really loud, but it is noticeable. It's really awkward to play games and constantly hear CLICK-CLICK-CLICK-CLICK-CLICK. But, I think I'm getting used to it by now.

[Zakenna]

I've just recently acquired an arcade stick, but it doesn't translate to shumps as well as I expected it to be. It works wonders with fighters though.

I have one complaint about it though. I'm not sure if this is prevalent among arcade sticks or if it's just mine, but whenever I move the stick in a direction it makes a loud clicking sound. Well, it's not really loud, but it is noticeable. It's really awkward to play games and constantly hear CLICK-CLICK-CLICK-CLICK-CLICK. But, I think I'm getting used to it by now.

and for a quick retort on why your arcade stick might not feel right. Most arcade sticks you can buy commercially are actually designed with fighting games in mind. Usually these will have Sanwa JLF joysticks or JLF knockoff (the regular Hori Real Arcade Pros, Hori EX, All Madcatz SEs and TEs) While most shmup players prefer a Seimitsu as their stick of choice(more specific models would be LS-32 and LS-50). Which is why when Hori made the Mushihime Sama HRAP they used an LS-32 for the stick. Reason why is because the sticks have a shorter activation distance(the Throw) and the springs have more tensions so the sticks feel tighter and you're able to do more precise movements.  So you can use that stick to get used to sticks in general but if you ever want to do Lunatic with a stick I'd suggest modding it with Seimitsu parts. Although if you're using it for IaMP, SWR or 12.3 then you're golden

also that clicking sound is the sounds of the microswitches activating. usually you don't hear a loud clicking from Keyboards and Gamepads because they use a membrane pad to make a connection. The clicking means your microswitches work. TBH I love microswitches  :* , they last longer than membrane, are more responsive, and give a tactile feedback which is why I use a DAS II keyboard (a Microswitch under every key)

But yeah they're loud so if that bothers you then should move back to pad or Keyboard since all sticks will be like that or louder

[Widermelonz]

and for a quick retort on why your arcade stick might not feel right. Most arcade sticks you can buy commercially are actually designed with fighting games in mind. Usually these will have Sanwa JLF joysticks or JLF knockoff (the regular Hori Real Arcade Pros, Hori EX, All Madcatz SEs and TEs) While most shmup players prefer a Seimitsu as their stick of choice(more specific models would be LS-32 and LS-50). Which is why when Hori made the Mushihime Sama HRAP they used an LS-32 for the stick. Reason why is because the sticks have a shorter activation distance(the Throw) and the springs have more tensions so the sticks feel tighter and you're able to do more precise movements.  So you can use that stick to get used to sticks in general but if you ever want to do Lunatic with a stick I'd suggest modding it with Seimitsu parts. Although if you're using it for IaMP, SWR or 12.3 then you're golden

also that clicking sound is the sounds of the microswitches activating. usually you don't hear a loud clicking from Keyboards and Gamepads because they use a membrane pad to make a connection. The clicking means your microswitches work. TBH I love microswitches  :* , they last longer than membrane, are more responsive, and give a tactile feedback which is why I use a DAS II keyboard (a Microswitch under every key)

But yeah they're loud so if that bothers you then should move back to pad or Keyboard since all sticks will be like that or louder

Ah, that explains why the Mushihimesama machine at my nearby arcade feels different than most other machines there.

And the clicking doesn't really bother me that much. It's just something that's quite noticeable in the quietness of my room compared the arcades, where loud sounds are blaring at you from all directions.

Also, thanks for the tip about the Seimitsu sticks. I'll looking into it.

[J.O.B]

I have been using a keyboard ever since I started playing touhou

[Barrakketh]

also that clicking sound is the sounds of the microswitches activating. usually you don't hear a loud clicking from Keyboards and Gamepads because they use a membrane pad to make a connection. The clicking means your microswitches work. TBH I love microswitches  :* , they last longer than membrane, are more responsive, and give a tactile feedback which is why I use a DAS II keyboard (a Microswitch under every key)

My keyboard:



*clack clack clack*

[Tonepoet]

I prefer to use a controller to play both Cave Story and Touhou. With Touhou however, any control method I use, even the keyboard, kinda hurts my hands since I'm doing so much work with my hands it's not even funny.

I have two 15th anniversary Street Fighter PS1 controllers I got for about 20 bucks each. If you don't care about diminishing the collector's value, they're soooooo much better for 2D games than the PS2 ones; combining the D-pad and face button count of the Genesis, with relatively even button alignment and shoulder buttons giving it some SNES-like qualities. The grip is ergonomically well shaped and the controller is lighter than it looks in person, although it feels a bit thicker than the average controller. Don't get too attached to the designs though because they're painted on and rub off easily, same for the face markings of the buttons. Misc. considerations include alternate character themes including Chun Li, Guile, Ken and Akuma.

I lost the one I was using though and don't want to wear down the other in the same way, so I'd resorted to a PS2 controller. It works great for Cave Story but I miss the circular D-pad and find the layout a bit cumbersome for Touhou. I must admit though, it's a lot better than any PS2 knockoff.

Over any other controller though, I'd probably prefer the SNES one. It has the most accessible shoulder buttons, since they're so big and the shape so thin and familiar. I've played great a many a game with it and never had a problem really, so I kinda doubt hand fatigue would be as much of an issue. On that last point, I could be wrong though, since Touhou makes one great series without representation in the SNES lineup and I rarely have problems otherwise. Also, fewer buttons means less confusion. Super Smartjoys adapters are a bit rare though, now that the company is out of business and I'd personally consider it a sin to try to cut the wires in an attempt to convert it to USB, even if I felt confident I had the skills required.

Joysticks are tempting but most either look like toys or are simply out of my price range. Modern finger influenced button layouts look kinda awkward too, in comparison to traditional boxy arcade layouts. Assuming I had unlimited funds, I'd like to play Touhou on a cocktail table cabinet. You know, like the little ones you'd play Mrs. Pacman at in a lil' funky bar. I think they have just the right viewing angle for Shoot 'em Ups and it'd be nice to play with a nice cup of hot cocoa and a croissant on the side to snack on during pause breaks. You'd need at least two more buttons for the games to be fully functional and it'd be much cheaper just to buy a good stick though.

Also, while I haven't played many games with them, old keyboards are indeed awesome. New ones feel almost sticky in comparison, probably due to the aforementioned membrane buttons.

[Barrakketh]

Joysticks are tempting but most either look like toys or are simply out of my price range. Modern finger influenced button layouts look kinda awkward too, in comparison to traditional boxy arcade layouts.

They are indeed tempting, but I'm about [--] far away from giving in and ordering one despite the expense:



The biggest downside will be initially sucking even worse than I usually do and finding the "right" way to actually use the joystick for shooters.  Most of the hand positions I know of don't appear to be conducive to streaming.

Also, while I haven't played many games with them, old keyboards are indeed awesome. New ones feel almost sticky in comparison, probably due to the aforementioned membrane buttons.

I use a clicky keyboard.  It drives me nuts to use someone else's computer simply because of how mushy the keys are.  The keys pop back up fine, but pressing the keys always makes you wonder if everyone you know has spilled a drink on their keyboard.

[Tonepoet]

Even if you're willing to pay the price, the button layout is very important. Your hands might be flexible but it only feels comfortable to position themselves in so many ways to have access to the fixed position buttons. At least to me, you'd want the six main buttons tilting the opposite way, to match the angle at which your hand naturally reaches out for stuff [If you don't see what I mean, try grabbing something small directly from a 12 'o clock position with your right hand and I think you'll get it]. Then you could have a finger layout similar to that which you'd see in the original games. Forefinger bombs, middle finger fires and ring finger on focus, just like you would with your keyboard, except in reversed order since you'll be using your other hand. As it is, you're essentially one button too short and at way too steep an inclination to attempt this.

In theory, if you needed quick access to all eight buttons, that looks like it might match your hands nicely. This is because the buttons appear to be positioned in a way that considers your relative finger positioning. In actual practice however, I'd be unsure. The key purpose would be for an authentic arcade type experience and I've never really seen a cabinet that uses more than two horizontal rows of three buttons each in person. More buttons are naturally better just in case you need them but it's no good if it makes the games you actually wanna play feel wonky.

Since it's so expensive, my suggestion is that before buying this sort of claw grip stick, go to an arcade and try out Street Fighter IV. Since their cabinet uses a similar layout, you can see how it was intended to be used and perhaps just goof off with the few buttons on the very edges to emulate how it might work for less button intensive games like shoot 'em ups. If you decide you like the exact SF4 feel, Madcatz even sells officially licensed PS3 sticks which presumably use the same parts in the same general price range. I can't necessarily endorse this stick myself, since I've not taken such preliminary steps or even tried the actual product. However when spending so much, I think it's quite nice to have an approximate, well played and physically playable facsimile of what you'd actually be getting.

Edit: Assuming they're actually out in the western world yet. I read an article saying they may not be, so, um, oops. Maybe though?

Edit 2: Changed the SF4 T.E. stick from a 130 dollar Newegg link to a since price reduced 100 dollar Amazon link. Also accidentally deleted the original SF4 cabinet article I linked and mildly adjusted the post to compensate.

[Barrakketh]

I've used what looks to be a nigh identical button layout on another HRAP (not the same model, it was hooked up to a PS2 playing Melty Blood) and the button layout worked for me.  One disclaimer is that I didn't spend a ton of time on it, namely because I don't really care for fighters and the people I used to know that played them (I might actually give IaMP and SWR a try after getting a stick since I'm somewhat interested in the endings which aren't available on the wiki, though).

I normally use a claw position on the keys when playing Touhou (no choice on that), and use a claw grip with both my pinky and ring finger gripping the right side of the mouse instead of resting on the right button (I've seen some people do that with their ring finger, but not often) and lip.  My left hand is also used to some funky positioning due to other games I've played due to the sheer amount of keybinds and macros I set up to use modifier keys (imagine basically everyone button around ASD being bound to an ability with alternate functions depending on whether CTRL, ALT, or Shift was depressed) and the fact that I use lots of shortcuts on the PC (Eclipse and vim being the top two reasons).  Oh, and I used to play the sax

I have a fairly "long" hand relative to my height.  At least in high school the overall length was approximately the same as my more vertically gifted friends who were up to 10" taller than me (I'm 5'8"), and practically all of that extra length is in the fingers.  That earned some annoying nicknames from some people (one guy's sister started calling me "spider boy"), along with some comments by others.  On my old mouse (the venerable Logitech MX-510) if I were to try using a palm grip my fingers would usually press the top lip of the mouse, above the main buttons.

I do not, however, have hands like the great Jewish bear (Evander on the PA forums):



That said, my hands have made finding a suitable control pad rather troublesome.  For instance, I'm among what seems to be the minority of people that believe that the PS2/PS3 controller is one of the most uncomfortable controllers that we've ever used in our life.  It's way worse than The Duke (original Xbox controller), which was actually almost comfortable other than it eventually causing joint pain in one part of my hand (whatever that bit that your thumb is connected to and extends to your wrist...the joint that runs along it to the web of your thumb).  So usually the size of a controller is an issue for comfort, and when it is tolerable for more than 20 or 30 minutes at a time I find I don't like either the D-pad (some of them are about as terrible as the 360's) or the buttons.

Thus far that curved button layout is the best thing I've found for my fingers (my right hand is the main problem).  I don't have to keep them in an excessively arched position when playing, which is what I'm currently forced to do and it makes my middle finger in particular hurt a fair bit after a while (I do take breaks).  I find that playing SHMUPs with a keyboard to be more fatiguing for my hand than playing Team Fortress 2 for 5+ hours without a break.

Really, the only issue is how much it costs and that I'm not able to borrow one to see how it is for a long enough time to actually get used to the stick itself.  I'm pretty frugal, so my initial reaction is that spending $140 is less than wise for a game accessory even though I can afford it.  On the other hand I spent a fair bit of money on my mechanical keyboard simply because it's a far better choice than the cheaper options, and being able to enjoy Touhou again without my hands hating me later would be worth it (especially now that I've burned myself out on TF2).  It's not like I've found a suitable gamepad over the years, and the cheaper arcade stick options use inferior parts (the buttons on those Hori fightsticks are rather mushy).

[Tonepoet]

Hmm, for better or for worse, I can't quite honestly say I'm not one of the many who thinks the original xBox controller's impossibly gargantuan, so you must indeed have rather big masculine hands. It's a great trait for many skills, although I can see how it'd be crippling in this particular set of circumstances. The average controller is designed for the average hand, as to appease as many different people as possible with one mass produced design. If you have differing needs from the people who designed them, you're pretty much out of luck unfortunately.

Since you like them, do you actually have an xBox controller yourself? If so, my recommendation would be to buy an adapter, similar to the one I use. It'd only run you around 10-20 bucks and this sort of product typically contains HID controllers, so assuming your game already has the built in joypad support, it'd be a simple matter of plug 'n play for any basic wired device. If you're interested, try looking on Amazon, I think I saw some there once. Variants are made for just about every controller really if you have others in mind, although usually you have to use the basic, wired variant.

As for joysticks, I was more concerned about button angle, than I was about the clawgrip, however disproportionately my attention was directed. As such, I thought something like this seems like it'd be more conducive to the inwards pointing angle of one's arm, especially if you find yourself tilting your keyboard to the left all the time. That one in particular gives me all the bad vibes of modernization though but it's just a hunch. Can't be sure without firsthand experience, which is a bit of a gamble unfortunately.

On another note entirely, playing the sax sounds quite cool. You spoke of it in the past tense though, so that makes me wonder, is there any reason in particular why you stopped?

[Oneofmany]

For me it really depends on what kind of game I'm playing most of the time I use Keyboard, I really never used a controller before on my PC I didn't know you can do that, lol I guess I can find one for my PC now.

[Prime 2.0]

Keyboard all the way.

[SupahVee1234]

I've finally managed to get my PS3 controller working on my PC. I tried playing some Touhou games, but it seems I can only move in 8 directions. Is this the correct behavior? If so, I don't see any sense in using a controller instead of a keyboard.

[Jaimers]

I've finally managed to get my PS3 controller working on my PC. I tried playing some Touhou games, but it seems I can only move in 8 directions. Is this the correct behavior? If so, I don't see any sense in using a controller instead of a keyboard.

I don't think that's what's supposed to happen. Mine goes in all directions.

[SupahVee1234]

I don't think that's what's supposed to happen. Mine goes in all directions.

So you're not restricted to 8 directions? Do I have to set something in Touhou options? Are you using a PS3 controller aswell? If yes, what driver?

[Jaimers]

So you're not restricted to 8 directions? Do I have to set something in Touhou options? Are you using a PS3 controller aswell? If yes, what driver?

I don't think so, I can make perfect circles and all that and I didn't change anything in the options.

I use a logitech precision gamepad, so maybe it has something to do with the difference between a d-pad and 4 directional buttens?

[SupahVee1234]

Mh... I'm using the analog stick, not the d-pad, on my PS3 controller. I will try some other driver, I don't know.

Or I'll buy your controller.

[Fenrir the Dusk]

I've only been playing Touhou for about a month or less, and I've had my controller long since then, so I've always played the games with a controller, don't really like using a keyboard, left handed, so movement with arrow keys isn't that comfortable, only down side is that I tend to squeeze my controller a bit too hard, which results in my right hand hurting like hell afterwards.