Author Topic: Byakuren is NOT a good character  (Read 46124 times)

Re: Byakuren is NOT a good character
« Reply #60 on: December 16, 2009, 06:12:54 PM »
Also, I kinda chuckled at this thread. Lots of misconception, trying to read too far in small details and the like.
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Re: Byakuren is NOT a good character
« Reply #61 on: December 16, 2009, 07:00:35 PM »

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Re: Byakuren is NOT a good character
« Reply #62 on: December 16, 2009, 07:11:28 PM »


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Re: Byakuren is NOT a good character
« Reply #64 on: December 16, 2009, 07:42:28 PM »

Re: Byakuren is NOT a good character
« Reply #65 on: December 17, 2009, 12:29:48 AM »
for anyone that would like to check the..
Spoiler:
endings.

[ruro]Edited for spoilers[/ruro]

I leave the interpretation of Byakuren's personality to you, readers.


now.. where was I?

But what god me thinking is ReimuA
In ReimuA's scenario, she says "but youkais are hated and gods worshiped. That's because humans decided it should be that way".
What this means is that Byakuren believes that the equality is humans should worship Youkai.
http://touhou.wikia.com/wiki/Undefined_Fantastic_Object:_Reimu_A%27s_Scenario
Byakuren mentions that gods and buddhas are no more than youkai, some may interpret equality as :
- gods being equal to youkai
- the human standards (the "But youkai are hated, and gods are worshipped. That's because humans decided it should be that way." bit) being neither more nor less important than the youkai standards
- Byakuren aiding both humans and youkai without distinction. There are several places (Byakuren's profile, and in the endings) where it's stated that Byakuren doesn't dislike humans.

And when Reimu questions if it's okay to leave her alone, Byakuren jumps to the conclusion that she cannot change her opinion of youkai so Byakuren tries to kill Reimu.
Byakuren: I can't change your desire
to eliminate all youkai.
However, if you're going to seal me away again -- I will resist you with all my strength.

once again (if you remember my previous post), a case of Byakuren not knowing about how youkai are treated nowadays, and thinking that Reimu would actually try to kill youkai.

Funny thing, is that Reimu's next line says that she's going to beat anyone that's a friend of youkai. Wouldn't that include herself? Or was this another of her non-serious "dramatic speeches", like in her PoDD's scenario?
Reimu: Whatever, I won't lose! Let's go!
Yumemi: Just a minute. I need to change into something more suitable for battle.
Reimu: You have no dramatic sense at all~
Yumemi: Okay, let's proceed.
Chiyuri: All you did was add a cape...


Reimu, who was able to see her true colors, says "Yep. There we go", hinting that she had a theory Byakuren was suspicious.
more like, Reimu follows her intuition and defeats the person who has the role of incident causer, according to the spellcard rules. Besides, literally beating people who are friends to youkai sounds masochistic, in Reimu's position.

Meanwhile, Byakuren comments humans are selfish and self-centered, when they've done nothing at all but resist Youkai oppression.
..when they've sealed her and everything related to her (elsewhere), including Murasa, and would've sealed Shou, if she had let the humans know that she was actually a youkai.
Besides, in the old Gensokyo, humans hunted youkai as well as youkai hunted humans. Byakuren wanted to aid them equally, and was banished by humans. Now that I think of it, while I've previously mentioned that MoF did a good job in showing us an example of the possible menace of powerful invaders from outside, as foreseen in the draft of spellcard rules, UFO (together with PMiSS) did a good job in showing us the contrast between Byakuren and Reimu's eras, yet having this story being told through the usual Windows-series' spellcard-friendly format. (of course, there's room for improvement)

Exactly what was in this case scenario where Byakuren tries to attack Reimu, with this being irony.
Reimu actively tries to defeat Byakuren, due to intuition and having to defeat the incident causer, and Byakuren misunderstands this as Reimu trying to re-seal her and actually kill more youkai.

I'm convinced that Zun wrote her as a psychologically ill character with distortions of a twisted reality. Again, Byakuren is a character who is ironic.
may I ask why are you convinced of this? And what's ironic about her?

To further enforce my theory, here`s an analogy:
Zephiel is to Fire Emblem as Byakuren is to Touhou
I haven't played Fire Emblem, can't understand the analogy.. sorry..

And SanaeA
Sanae just wants to return home. Byakuren questions her and Sanae simply says she's a hunter of youkai who do bad things. "I see humans haven't changed" is what Byakuren says in response.

Byakuren: My name is Byakuren.
I was a Buddhist monk a long, long time ago.
You seem to be a shrine maiden, am I right?
Sanae: Yes, I'm a shrine maiden that hunts youkai.
Byakuren: A youkai hunter ... ?
Sanae: Yes, I hunt youkai who
do bad things to people.
Byakuren: ... ... I see humans haven't changed.
Sanae: I'm sorry?
Byakuren: I grieve for the youkai
that are oppresed by humans.
I did everything in my power to create a peaceful world
where humans and youkai could live as equals.
And yet, I was sealed away by humans
who didn't want that sort of world.


Byakuren thinks Sanae doesn't want such a peaceful world

When she asks Sanae if she believes Youkai hunting to be just, Sanae responds it's needed to keep the peace.
Byakuren then concludes herself no better than a Youkai and attacks Sanae.
http://touhou.wikia.com/wiki/Undefined_Fantastic_Object:_Sanae_A%27s_Scenario
first thing.. the youkai Sanae claims to be hunting are the same youkai (not speaking of species such as tengu and kappa here) that populates the Youkai Mountain and provide faith to Kanako; Byakuren says that, by Sanae's point of view, she (Byakuren) would be no different than a youkai, and since Sanae has said she (Sanae) hunts down youkai..
Sanae: Then, I guess it's time to beat you!
(at this point, I don't need to mention Byakuren's lack of knowledge about today's relationship between humans and youkai and the purposes of the spellcard rules, do I?)

This backs up my theory is that Byakuren wanted Youkai to be worshiped. And this backs up that the reason she was sealed away was because she attacked humans.
she got Shou to be worshipped by youkai, because she was a devotee of Bishamonten, who was too busy to stay around her temple for a long time, and who was feared by youkai. Shou herself was virtuous enough to earn the trust of Bishamonten, as his disciple.

Humans can get youkai followers for their gods as well (right, Sanae?), and Byakuren was sealed because she was somehow caught sparing/saving youkai, when she was expected (by the humans) to be hunting them. Not that the humans weren't capable of fighting the youkai, as well.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2009, 12:31:09 AM by Judge Yamaxanadredd »
neku: now for something important.
Translations.
How much time do you guys think it will take for HM to be translated? Besides everyone's story modes and the whole menus, there's also the fact that the way HM's programmed is different from all other games. I bet it'll take two months.

lusvik: I don't mind about playing HM in japanese. The language of punching other people is international.

Re: Byakuren is NOT a good character
« Reply #66 on: December 17, 2009, 01:48:47 AM »
wat

It's just a typical "Hero out of time" scenario. Maybe kind of clever, but not very Nazi.

Re: Byakuren is NOT a good character
« Reply #67 on: December 17, 2009, 02:34:27 AM »
You mean kind of tiny, tiny, clever? *runs*

Toasty

Re: Byakuren is NOT a good character
« Reply #68 on: December 17, 2009, 04:07:28 AM »
Quote from: thread title
Byakuren is NOT a good character

Quote
Ending No.05
Spoiler:
No, Byakuren is really a nice person.

This made me laugh quite a bit.

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Re: Byakuren is NOT a good character
« Reply #69 on: December 17, 2009, 07:46:59 AM »
You people are still misunderstanding it.

Any touhou final boss or EXboss who receives a massive spank from Reimu or Marisa suddenly turns into a good girl. It has been proven in each game.

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Re: Byakuren is NOT a good character
« Reply #70 on: December 17, 2009, 07:48:32 AM »
Any touhou final boss or EXboss who receives a Master Spark from Marisa suddenly turns into a good girl.

Fixed

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Re: Byakuren is NOT a good character
« Reply #71 on: December 17, 2009, 12:56:21 PM »
Any touhou final boss or EXboss who receives a Master Spark from Marisa suddenly turns into a good girl ZE
Fixed
Further Fix'd

Re: Byakuren is NOT a good character
« Reply #72 on: December 17, 2009, 05:17:50 PM »
this means that Sikieiki, Kanako and Utsuho, and Suwako and Koishi are out of this scope, right? :D
neku: now for something important.
Translations.
How much time do you guys think it will take for HM to be translated? Besides everyone's story modes and the whole menus, there's also the fact that the way HM's programmed is different from all other games. I bet it'll take two months.

lusvik: I don't mind about playing HM in japanese. The language of punching other people is international.

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Re: Byakuren is NOT a good character
« Reply #73 on: December 17, 2009, 07:50:38 PM »
i agree, bitch de-friended me on facebook

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Helepolis

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Re: Byakuren is NOT a good character
« Reply #74 on: December 17, 2009, 09:02:03 PM »
this means that Sikieiki, Kanako and Utsuho, and Suwako and Koishi are out of this scope, right? :D

No?

Re: Byakuren is NOT a good character
« Reply #75 on: December 18, 2009, 10:13:56 AM »
Master Spark in PoFV/MoF/SA? (I wasn't supposed to have to explain such a joke :D)
neku: now for something important.
Translations.
How much time do you guys think it will take for HM to be translated? Besides everyone's story modes and the whole menus, there's also the fact that the way HM's programmed is different from all other games. I bet it'll take two months.

lusvik: I don't mind about playing HM in japanese. The language of punching other people is international.

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Re: Byakuren is NOT a good character
« Reply #76 on: December 18, 2009, 06:39:41 PM »
You people are still misunderstanding it.

Any touhou final boss or EXboss who receives a massive spank from Reimu or Marisa suddenly turns into a good girl. It has been proven in each game.
Exactly. You notice how much that is little Starlight Breaker and you realize that Marisa can befriend just about anybody.
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Re: Byakuren is NOT a good character
« Reply #77 on: December 19, 2009, 08:42:04 PM »
Byakuren's ideals are not good, I don't know where the fan base got this idea. She just helped youkai because of hear fear of losing her power, which is nothing but bloody egocentrism. The equivalent rights case was a mare excuse for doing so.

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Re: Byakuren is NOT a good character
« Reply #78 on: December 19, 2009, 08:49:04 PM »
Byakuren's ideals are not good, I don't know where the fan base got this idea. She just helped youkai because of hear fear of losing her power, which is nothing but bloody egocentrism. The equivalent rights case was a mare excuse for doing so.

Except that her official profile says that over time she really did start to care for the youkai she was rescuing, rather than just using them for her own self-preservation.
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Re: Byakuren is NOT a good character
« Reply #79 on: December 21, 2009, 12:12:05 AM »
Losing her powers also mean being susceptible to age until death. Her fear is understandable.

In order to maintain her powers, people must believe in magic, and in the existance of youkai. I think that she has found a home in Gensokyo. :p

If Byakuren's said ideals mean youkai and humans stopping to fight each other, then they'll be bad for Gensokyo. But if these ideals mean coexistence, equal treatment, aiding without distinction, perhaps her ideals are already a reality, in Gensokyo, and weren't in her time/place.

(I wonder if there will be any characters in TH13 that are related to her past, it would be so lol, as if Byakuren is another piece in the domino chain that started in TH10 :p)
neku: now for something important.
Translations.
How much time do you guys think it will take for HM to be translated? Besides everyone's story modes and the whole menus, there's also the fact that the way HM's programmed is different from all other games. I bet it'll take two months.

lusvik: I don't mind about playing HM in japanese. The language of punching other people is international.

Re: Byakuren is NOT a good character
« Reply #80 on: December 21, 2009, 04:05:07 AM »
(I wonder if there will be any characters in TH13 that are related to her past, it would be so lol, as if Byakuren is another piece in the domino chain that started in TH10 :p)
That, or it'll start over again with another directly Moriya Shrine conspiracy.

Re: Byakuren is NOT a good character
« Reply #81 on: December 21, 2009, 05:36:09 AM »
Eirin's Shaddy New Drug is way more likely :V

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Re: Byakuren is NOT a good character
« Reply #82 on: December 21, 2009, 06:44:51 AM »
That, or it'll start over again with another directly Moriya Shrine conspiracy.
Eirin's Shaddy New Drug is way more likely :V

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Re: Byakuren is NOT a good character
« Reply #83 on: December 21, 2009, 06:47:04 AM »
It's interesting to note that outside of Gensokyo, youkai don't stand a chance against humans. Byakuren is right when she said that the youkai are being oppressed-- it's just not applicable to this one land of all places, the one world where they really are free.

Besides, YOUKAI HAVE FEELINGS TOO, WHY DON'T THEY GET TO HAVE A SAVIOUR :<

Byakuren for Touhou 13 go go go.

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Re: Byakuren is NOT a good character
« Reply #84 on: December 21, 2009, 07:13:23 AM »
It's interesting to note that outside of Gensokyo, youkai don't stand a chance against humans. Byakuren is right when she said that the youkai are being oppressed-- it's just not applicable to this one land of all places, the one world where they really are free.

Besides, YOUKAI HAVE FEELINGS TOO, WHY DON'T THEY GET TO HAVE A SAVIOUR :<

Byakuren for Touhou 13 go go go.
Except for I think it's a law that you need to have previous experience as a level 5 boss to be a playable character unless you are Reimu or Marisa. Or at very least have one as your chaperon unless ZUN decides to make Touhou 13 phantasmagoria of something and even then It's only the unlockables. The problem being I have a sinking feeling that Shou doesn't swing a big enough fan hammer to be the third character in a game.
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Re: Byakuren is NOT a good character
« Reply #85 on: December 21, 2009, 07:17:08 AM »
Honestly, the only character in in UFO who has enough of a fanbase to pull off a comeback is Unzan. But he is male and therefore ZUN does not like him. So failing Unzan, Kogasa is the only one likely to
Spoiler:
surprise
anyone with a return. Shou has the "5th stage boss" thing going for her, but not the popularity that usually comes with it (Sanae being the most recent example). Hmm. Maybe Murasa?

... okay, maybe Byakuren for 13.5 the fighting game go go go.

Re: Byakuren is NOT a good character
« Reply #86 on: December 21, 2009, 02:42:20 PM »
Except for I think it's a law that you need to have previous experience as a level 5 boss to be a playable character unless you are Reimu or Marisa. Or at very least have one as your chaperon unless ZUN decides to make Touhou 13 phantasmagoria of something and even then It's only the unlockables. The problem being I have a sinking feeling that Shou doesn't swing a big enough fan hammer to be the third character in a game.
there's IN solo :D (you may play as Yukari, Alice, Remilia or Yuyuko)

I wonder if ZUN will ever try to use Armed Police Batrider's formula. In APB, you formed a team of 3 members, and could choose from 18 characters (there were the Police Team, the Psychic Team, the Criminal Team, and the guest characters from Battle Garegga and the Mahou Daisakusen series), or you could use a single character (which was bad for scoring in APB). Depending on the characters you've selected, you could fight additional bosses under some special conditions. APB was a very deep game, though I think that the aura attack made scoring a bit too difficult (for me, at least) on that game (meaning that you must get close to your enemies in order to damage them with your aura, and maintain the difficulty rank low enough for them to not shoot in your face :p).
neku: now for something important.
Translations.
How much time do you guys think it will take for HM to be translated? Besides everyone's story modes and the whole menus, there's also the fact that the way HM's programmed is different from all other games. I bet it'll take two months.

lusvik: I don't mind about playing HM in japanese. The language of punching other people is international.

Re: Byakuren is NOT a good character
« Reply #87 on: December 22, 2009, 04:20:04 AM »
Shou has the "5th stage boss" thing going for her, but not the popularity that usually comes with it (Sanae being the most recent example).
Err, from what I understand nobody likes Sanae (even back from her MoF introduction). I think making her playable was more attributed to the fact the Moriya shrine has been pretty important to the most recent story arc.

If popularity was that important we'd probably have Suwako as playable instead.

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Re: Byakuren is NOT a good character
« Reply #88 on: December 22, 2009, 06:33:58 AM »
Err, from what I understand nobody likes Sanae (even back from her MoF introduction).

What rock have you been under?

This isn't the picture I wanted, but it'll do. The gist of it is that Sanae won fourth place in the most recent major popularity poll. This was immediately after SA's release, and it's worth noting that while Satori got a combined 5th place (character + music rating), Orin did far worse, and she hasn't exactly returned for another Touhou game.

Oh, and Suwako isn't anywhere near the top ten, as I recall. But I could be wrong. This was a while ago.

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Re: Byakuren is NOT a good character
« Reply #89 on: December 22, 2009, 06:37:34 AM »
Basically, just because you don't like them doesn't mean no-one else does.

As for Byakuren... Putting aside all my bias towards her, I will have to admit that she does mean well.  She's just... Behind the times, I suppose.  Or ahead of them, I'm not sure.  Either or.
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