Economics in Gensokyo

[OkashiiKisei]

Lately, there has been something bothering me about Gensokyo's residents. (I'm new here BTW)

That something, is money.

Reimu makes a living on (rarely) receiving donations from the human village and her youkai friends, but where do THEY get the money from?

With the exception of a handfew of Touhous, it isn't stated how the girls get their funds. Sure, the wild, homeless youkai don't really have to bother since they don't have any need for money (majority of Team 9 as prime example), but the mansion owning youkai of Gensokyo would need some form of income to support their luxurious life styles. As far as I know, there is no such thing as a Gensokyo bank, so the Touhou Tops can't just live of the interest. And Gensokyo is pretty small, so I just can't see how the humans nor the youkai could possibly build an economy, when they are so cut off from the outside world.

Thus, I would want to hear your wacky theories of the Touhou girls money making schemes, or tell about existing answers provided by official work. You could also discuss who's a lady and who's a tramp, which quite surprisingly isn't always very clear (a doujin once had Ran state the Yakumo's weren't so financially well, although Yukari could easily conjure up money from thin air/rob an outside world bank through gaps).

Example:
Meiling and Sakuya probably get their wages from Remilia, but where does she get the money from? Keeping maintenance in the mansion is also pretty costly, having Flan around. Not to mention all the food and drinks Remilia needs for her party's. The amount of ink Patchouli needs for writing books would also be a fortune! And all Remi does is sit on her vampiric butt all day and eat blood cakes. If she doesn't have a reasonable source of income, her family fortune would be desimated in months!

My theory? Patchy is a walking, anemic, squishy moneyprinter.

Patchy can manipulate the elements, one of which is metal.

Gold is a metal.

You do the math.

And even if Patchy isn't an alchemist, with wood manipulation she could make perfect money bills and with metal powers sublime yen coins. That's why she gets to stay in the SDM, instead of being kicked out by Remi for doing nothing in the library. Without her Remi's wealth would vanish in weeks.

Note: We all already know about Eirin working as doctor, Keine as a teacher, Mystia owning a lamprey stand and Marisa stealing and pawning everything that isn't bolted to the ground and/or on fire. You don't need to tell about them.

[Janitor Morgan]

Eirin is a doctor, Keine is a teacher, Mystia owns a-- oh wait.

Alice probably makes a living by crafting and selling the dolls that she doesn't use to do her housework.

[shadowbringer]

afaik there are no canonical answers for what kind of businesses Remilia runs. Theorizing about it would lead us to nowhere, without concrete evidences. Plus, most of the maids at the SDM are fairies ( http://touhou.wikia.com/wiki/Perfect_Memento:_Scarlet_Devil_Mansion ).

Kourin and Marisa and Mokou have businesses, as well (plus, Marisa and Reimu get paid for "extermination" services; Reimu is said to have "imitators", regarding her job as a youkai "hunter", and Marisa also does some sort of firework displays). PMiSS also mentions Yuka having visited a flower seller, and the pre-Meiji era Japan was advanced enough to have currencies http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_ry%C5%8D . It seems believable enough that places such as the human village, the former hell's shopping district and the.. uh.. http://touhou.wikia.com/wiki/Perfect_Memento:_Road_of_Liminality .. could support an economic system.

[OkashiiKisei]

afaik there are no canonical answers for what kind of businesses Remilia runs. Theorizing about it would lead us to nowhere, without concrete evidences. Plus, most of the maids at the SDM are fairies ( http://touhou.wikia.com/wiki/Perfect_Memento:_Scarlet_Devil_Mansion ).

Kourin and Marisa and Mokou have businesses, as well (plus, Marisa and Reimu get paid for "extermination" services; Reimu is said to have "imitators", regarding her job as a youkai "hunter", and Marisa also does some sort of firework displays). PMiSS also mentions Yuka having visited a flower seller, and the pre-Meiji era Japan was advanced enough to have currencies http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_ry%C5%8D . It seems believable enough that places such as the human village, the former hell's shopping district and the.. uh.. http://touhou.wikia.com/wiki/Perfect_Memento:_Road_of_Liminality .. could support an economic system.

Ah, wonderful points there. Looks like the Gensokyo residents aren't in such a mess after all. I'm sorry, I haven't read many of the Perfect Memento entries yet, so I didn't know much of these facts. Wierd that Fanon portrays Reimu so poor although she apparently gets rewarded for her deeds (good thing at least three incidents happen a year). It also amazes me Yuka would be willing to give her precious flowers to an every day florist. All in all, thank you for this information.

[Fightest]

I don't know if this is mentioned in the Perfect Mementoes, but the OP raised a thought in my head: currency needs a system of government or law enforcement to support it and generate trust. Now, Gensokyo does not have a clear ruler that would have the authority to mint coin. Hence here's a continuation to the question - where and who does the currency come from?

[OkashiiKisei]

I don't know if this is mentioned in the Perfect Mementoes, but the OP raised a thought in my head: currency needs a system of government or law enforcement to support it and generate trust. Now, Gensokyo does not have a clear ruler that would have the authority to mint coin. Hence here's a continuation to the question - where and who does the currency come from?

As far as I know, the closest thing Gensokyo has to a ruler is Yukari. I'm not talking about power here, but her deeds and clever mind. She created the Great Hakurei Border in the first place, (possibly) caused the rise of the Hakurei family, and is the only person in Gensokyo with consistent access to the outside world. Yukari is known as a mastermind, so perhaps, in a clearly laid plan, she manipulates Reimu and her friends to be the law enforcement. Yukari either creates the currency of Gensokyo with one of her borders (Border of Wealth and Poverty perhaps?) and then gaps it to spread it over the country, or just nicks it from modern Japan through gapping.

And maybe the human village has a mayor?

[Fightest]

Yukari either creates the currency of Gensokyo with one of her borders (Border of Wealth and Poverty perhaps?) and then gaps it to spread it over the country, or just nicks it from modern Japan through gapping.

And maybe the human village has a mayor?

As a youkai, Yukari has no trust from the humans, so any currency that she introduces would not be accepted by them. Plus, I sincerely doubt she bothers producing or acquiring coin in any manner.

The mayor thing is far more likely - a minor lord of sorts is entirely believeable as a community ruler in Gensokyo. The Hieda clan seems to be quite influential, so I'd wager that any currency is produced by them.

[Pesco]

They call the currency yen, but it's actually all sake and tea.

I don't recall the staff of SDM ever getting paid, lifetime service for a uniform and 3 meals a day.

[Nobu]

My theory is that things like the currency system and economics work in Gensokyo because nobody asks why it shouldn't work, and it is perfectly fine for something illogical to exist and work in Gensokyo as long as people don't try to use logic to define it. It's as Sanae says, "You can't be trapped by common sense in Gensokyo!"

[OkashiiKisei]

My theory is that things like the currency system and economics work in Gensokyo because nobody asks why it shouldn't work, and it is perfectly fine for something illogical to exist and work in Gensokyo as long as people don't try to use logic to define it. It's as Sanae says, "You can't be trapped by common sense in Gensokyo!"

Ah yes, I almost forgot Gensokyo follows the 'Laws of Nonsense' instead of the 'Laws of Physics'.

They call the currency yen, but it's actually all sake and tea.

I don't recall the staff of SDM ever getting paid, lifetime service for a uniform and 3 meals a day.

Yeah, most likely Sakuya, Meiling and the fairies are getting paid with a house over their heads. Some power persuasion from Remilia doesn't hurt either. But that still doesn't explain what Patchy's doing there. While Sakuya, Meiling and the fairies actively perform work in the SDM, what does Patchy provide? Is she the nurse or something? Does her magical knowledge solve all the screw ups made by any of the other residents? Or is she only allowed in the mansion because her ever expanding library provides a good read for Remi?

[Toasty]

Patchy probably can make some nice spellcards that perfectly express her mistress' power.

/theory

[shadowbringer]

I think that the law enforcement and government isn't mentioned in the games, because they're not necessary there. Said law enforcement and government could've been purposedly omitted in the written works, as well.

I wouldn't assume that Yukari would be the sole ruler of Gensokyo, rather, I would consider (just my opinion) that said government(s) would remain obscure/unmentioned, like most of the organizations listed here. Plus.. the emperor of Kaguya's legend isn't mentioned in the games as well :p  (plus 2.. Kotohime's princess side isn't as outstanding as her self-proclaimed law enforcer's :p)

[N-Forza]

Rinnosuke is bad at running a business, but it's not like he needs money that much. Most of the time it seems that most of the weird stuff finds its way to him anyway, either by chance, someone just giving it to him, or through bartering.

[Helepolis]

Rinnosuke is probably the most interesting person in Gensokyo when you speak about business. Reading up his material is very fun and brings up alot of questions which cannot be answered.




And lol, laws in Gensokyo. That is funny.

[Fightest]

And lol, laws in Gensokyo. That is funny.

We-e-ll, you say that, but Gensokyo has plenty of laws, just like the real world, they're just more... unwritten. There is still the concept of property and ownership of land. Still the usual taboos and prejudices. Hell, I don't need to go further than the Spell Card System, which is a fundamental part of Gensokyo.

[Helepolis]

I don't need to go further than the Spell Card System, which is a fundamental part of Gensokyo.

Nail on the head. You hit it.

Though it was originally designed to beat the Hakurei mikos. Not nessecary Youkais/humans among eachother. It is a form of battle with honour instead of a battle till death.

[OkashiiKisei]

Though it was originally designed to beat the Hakurei mikos. Not nessecary Youkais/humans among eachother. It is a form of battle with honour instead of a battle till death.

And to make sure nobody (accidentally) kills the Hakurei Miko's, thus breaking the Hakurei Barrier and letting all of Gensokyo go to hell.

[Alfred F. Jones]

Gensokyo strikes me as an agrarian society, pre-industrialization to be sure (didn't Gensokyo put up the Hakurei barrier right before the Meiji era/during the Bakumatsu?). I really do think there's an awful lot of farming and such going on in the background, but the closest we've come to it in-game are the Aki Sisters' orchard. If the topography of Gensokyo is anything like Japan proper, it's also got a wide variety of climates for such a small land, allowing various areas of the country to flourish year-round.

Oh man I've been taking geography class too long.

[Fightest]

Gensokyo strikes me as an agrarian society, pre-industrialization to be sure (didn't Gensokyo put up the Hakurei barrier right before the Meiji era/during the Bakumatsu?). I really do think there's an awful lot of farming and such going on in the background, but the closest we've come to it in-game are the Aki Sisters' orchard. If the topography of Gensokyo is anything like Japan proper, it's also got a wide variety of climates for such a small land, allowing various areas of the country to flourish year-round.

It's an area enclosed by both the Barrier and mountains, so it'd most likely have a valley climate, with mostly moderate climate in the lowlands, e.g. the Forest of Magic, the Human Village and the SDM and its lake; and colder climates as we go up in altitude, specifically the Youkai Mountain and the Hakurei Shrine as examples. I also really doubt there's that much variety at all, as I recall Gensokyo being no larger than 300 kilometres across (though I could have made that up).

[OkashiiKisei]

It's an area enclosed by both the Barrier and mountains, so it'd most likely have a valley climate, with mostly moderate climate in the lowlands, e.g. the Forest of Magic, the Human Village and the SDM and its lake; and colder climates as we go up in altitude, specifically the Youkai Mountain and the Hakurei Shrine as examples. I also really doubt there's that much variety at all, as I recall Gensokyo being no larger than 300 kilometres across (though I could have made that up).

Perfect Memento indeed stated it's pretty small. Only a few dozen kilometers in diameter. That's why I think it's going to be pretty cramped if we find ourselves Gensokyo. Luckily there are many worlds connected to Gensokyo, like Makai, Former Hell and Hakugykurou, who provide far more space, and probably different climates.

On the subject of Makai, I bet Shinki makes loads of money selling self designed monsters and demons to bad guys from various worlds. Hmmmm.....could she be the true owner of Holy Nightmare Corporation/Nightmare Enterprises?
....Great, now I can't stop imagining Shinki dressed as Nightmare and Yumeko as the Nightmare Salesman.......
Mimamama: I want a monstah to clobbah dat dere miko!
Makai Saleswoman: We have a fine deal for you, miss.

[Janitor Morgan]

On the subject of Makai, I bet Shinki makes loads of money selling self designed monsters and demons to bad guys from various worlds. Hmmmm.....could she be the true owner of Holy Nightmare Corporation/Nightmare Enterprises?
....Great, now I can't stop imagining Shinki dressed as Nightmare and Yumeko as the Nightmare Salesman.......
Mimamama: I want a monstah to get dat dere miko!
Makai Saleswoman: We have a fine deal for you, miss.

"Yuyuko: Right Back At Ya!" is now feasible.

On-topic: I'm curious as to how the tengu economy works. Aya sells newspapers, of course, but what about the rest? We aren't given many clues about how they live, IIRC.

[flurk]

getting too long, didn't read:

what does Patchy provide? Is she the nurse or something? Does her magical knowledge solve all the screw ups made by any of the other residents? Or is she only allowed in the mansion because her ever expanding library provides a good read for Remi?

isn't patchy a friend of remi's? i'd assume that she discovered the SDM's troves of books and decided to move in and live there.

[OkashiiKisei]

On-topic: I'm curious as to how the tengu economy works. Aya sells newspapers, of course, but what about the rest? We aren't given many clues about how they live, IIRC.

I think there are just many tengu working for the same newspaper, Bunbunmaru. A real world newspaper needs loads of staff after all. Besides reporters, there need to be filers, writers, secretary's, management, bookkeeping and much more. These positions are all available for the Tengu to use.

[Helepolis]

And to make sure nobody (accidentally) kills the Hakurei Miko's, thus breaking the Hakurei Barrier and letting all of Gensokyo go to hell.

It has nothing to do with accidentally killing the Hakurei Mikos. The youkais could do it if they want but that would be simply suicide. Killing is one thing, defeating is also dangerous as in weakening them. Youkais are monsters eating your guts and stuff. They are not your avarage cuddly monster. And they wanted to "beat" the mikos badly else there is no use of being a Youkai who cannot attack the Hakurei maidens.

Thus, Spell Card rules.

[Slacker]

This is a thread that shouldn't be pondered on for too long. Lets not forget that the world Gensokyo is created by one man.
Probably in ZUN's mind, Gensokyo is perfectly capable to be self-sufficient without an established government or serious law enforcement.

[Solais]

This is a thread that shouldn't be pondered on for too long. Lets not forget that the world Gensokyo is created by one man.
Probably in ZUN's mind, Gensokyo is perfectly capable to be self-sufficient without an established government or serious law enforcement.

Don't be so boring.

[Slacker]

Don't be so boring.

Boring? I was merely i........ ooh that's right! the whole common sense in gensokyo thing! forgot about that, sorry to sound logically dull here

[Fightest]

Boring? I was merely i........ ooh that's right! the whole common sense in gensokyo thing! forgot about that, sorry to sound logically dull here

Not quite. I believe Solais was referring to your comment to not overanalyse - while it has its merit, this is pretty much the purpose of the thread, which is why we don't discuss ZUN's competence as a setting designer, but rather the setting itself and what quirks might be present in it.

[Solais]

What Fightest said.

[Nobu]

Not quite. I believe Solais was referring to your comment to not overanalyse - while it has its merit, this is pretty much the purpose of the thread, which is why we don't discuss ZUN's competence as a setting designer, but rather the setting itself and what quirks might be present in it.

Yeah, my presentation was a bit different than the usual 'don't try to make sense of it' argument, because that's my theory on how the universe actually works, *specifically* because no one tries to make sense of it. It's the whole "You don't fall from running off a cliff until you look down" effect. Introducing logic and common sense to Gensokyo would essentially be like unraveling it.

But that's just one interpretation, and the beauty of Touhou is that it's a sandbox of ideas and creativity. :3