Author Topic: [東方意地奴 ~ Touhou Ijiyatsu] - Embodiments (Read 42013 times)

Nobu · « **on:** August 26, 2009, 04:58:51 AM »

Alright, since no one outright objected I split off Embodiment discussion to a separate topic. I'm going to try coming the past few discussion topics to see if there's anything else to include, plus get that chart posted here for Stage assignments for embodiments.

[From Info thread]

Idiot Embodiments:

Idiot Embodiments are enemies randomly chosen from a group determined by stage.
They will fire a different pattern associated with each Embodiment.
If you kill an Embodiment, you will receive a bomb piece (? bomb) and the lost IE.
An Embodiment will disappear after a set time. If it is not killed, you will receive a life piece (? life) and the lost IE.
If you die when an Embodiment is on-screen, you lose 50 of the 100 stored IE. If you bomb, you lose 25. These will not stack, so you will always receive at least 50.

Idiot Embodiment Table: *NOTE* This has to be revamped later on in testing.

	Different IE ()	Possible IE	Possible Lives (total)	Possible Bombs (total)
Stage 1	3	4	1 (1)	2 (2)
Stage 2	2 (+1)	4	1 (2)	2 (4)
Stage 3	2 (+1)	5	1? (3?)	2? (6?)
Stage 4	4	5	1? (4?)	2? (9)
Stage 5	2 (+2)	6	1? (6)	3 (12)
Stage 6	2 (+2)	4	1 (7)	2 (14)
Stage EX	3	10	2	5
Stage PH	3	6 (+2/+2)	1? (+?)	3 (+1)

In the main game, it is theoretically possible to encounter 28 Embodiments, counting a probable 28*100+99=2899 obtainable IE (just because), resulting in a 28990 possible gain and a net 48990 point value. 7 extra lives can be obtained, equaling a net 10 lives. Conversely, 14 extra bombs can be obtained, equaling a net 16 bombs.
In the Extra stage, out of 10 possible Embodiments, 8 life fragments can be given for 2 lives, in addition to 1 possible bomb. (4+4+2)
In the Phantasm stage, out of 6 possible Embodiments, 4 life fragments can be given for 1 life, in addition to 1 possible bomb. (4+2) Each midboss also drops a bomb and life fragment, resulting in a possible extra life if two life fragments are already collected. Conversely, an extra bomb is obtainable.

Embodiments: 19

*NOTE* This is for me to keep track of requests, not assignments

N-Forza
Flashtirade
Xan
MTG
Kuma
Dragoshi
Sanasanasan
Ana-chan
Vladimir
Cadmas
Pako
Rikter
Matsuri
Prody
Muffin
Doomsday
Skye
Onthenet
Ammy

Drake · « **Reply #1 on:** August 29, 2009, 09:06:04 PM »

The Idiocy kind of swallows people. The wacky idiot energy in their bodies starts to go awry and they join the blue mist. When enough idiot energy is just lying around it turns into a character the Idiocy has swallowed. It isn't the character themselves, either.

Code: [Select]

Stage 1
-Doomsday
-Prody
-Flashtirade

Stage 2
-Rikter
-Anthony
*

Stage 3
-Cadmas
*Anthony

Stage 4
-MTG
-Sana
-Lenin
*Sapz

Stage 5
-Kuma
-Ammy
*Sana
*Lenin

Stage 6
-Xan
-Matsuri
*
**MTG

Stage EX
-Skye
-Dragoshi
-Onthenet

Stage OM
-N-Forza
-Muffin
-Pako

Hyphens denote single-stage, asterisks denote appearing in the stage before and the double asterisk means you appeared in stage 4, but not 5.

Gappy · « **Reply #2 on:** December 06, 2009, 08:32:17 PM »

Hmm, so the embodiment stage thing came up? Well, if possible, could Iji-Gap be in the same stage as Xan, whichever that is. It'll tie in with the ijiatsu story I'm writing ^^

Nobu · « **Reply #3 on:** December 06, 2009, 08:45:01 PM »

How many per stage? Because that would make the last stage Xan, Matsuri, and Gap so far.

Moerin · « **Reply #4 on:** December 06, 2009, 08:47:30 PM »

Hmmm... Since stage 6 probably won't be very long, I guess three Embodiments is probably enough. Not sure about the other stages, though...

Nobu · « **Reply #5 on:** December 06, 2009, 08:52:55 PM »

It depends on how we end up doing the embodiments though, Onee-chan. If we go with my idea of having more embodiments on a stage than could show up in a single play-through, we could have more than three. Though I don't know if we decided on something or put off that idea until later.

Drake · « **Reply #6 on:** December 07, 2009, 01:25:36 AM »

Stage 6 gets at least 400 IE, yielding 4 Embodiments and one possible life or two possible bombs.

NEW: Yeah, there are only two Embodiments native to Stage 6. If you all want to get in, you'll have to sign up for Stage 5 and get in that way. As of now, Xan for sure is in Stage 6 and Rikter is for sure in Stage 2.

Kuma · « **Reply #7 on:** December 07, 2009, 01:29:19 AM »

should there be a way to prevent the same embodiment from apearing twice in a row?

Nobu · « **Reply #8 on:** December 07, 2009, 01:34:05 AM »

Updated first post with our current embodiment list, still looking for that one chart by Drake. And what do you mean by "native to Stage 6?" If there are only two embodiments on stage six, and up to 4 embodiments can appear, doesn't that mean that the same embodiment will appear twice?

Drake, I didn't realize you were on the Embodiment list. I thought you were one of the bosses or Slaves' assistant? I don't know if you have your heart set on being an embodiment, but maybe we could swap you out for someone else that isn't in the game yet?

Rikter · « **Reply #9 on:** December 07, 2009, 01:35:10 AM »

So we would have 2 Extra mid bosses like Phantasm?

Cadmas · « **Reply #10 on:** December 07, 2009, 01:38:21 AM »

So errr, are we going with the Embodiments being like UFOs or random mid bosses?

Nobu · « **Reply #11 on:** December 07, 2009, 02:04:15 AM »

I'm going to merge previous Embodiment discussion to this thread, it should immediately follow the first post.

Drake · « **Reply #12 on:** December 07, 2009, 02:08:12 AM »

Somebody who can edit posts, go to the info thread and paste the table with proper structure here.

The first column indicates the different characters that can be found in that stage. The first number are the ones that appear only in that stage, and the second number (+?) are Embodiments that appear in both that stage, and the stage before it. (To compensate, they aren't found as often as the other two).

The second column indicates how many Embodiments are possible to spawn in the stage; or rather, the number times 100 gives around how much IE is possible to obtain in that stage.

The third column indicates how many lives you can obtain in that stage, and also how many net lives you'll have if you got every Embodiment and always got lives. The fourth column is similar but with Bombs.

EDIT: Going to put some things I said in earlier threads here.

Perhaps in stage 1, when Jan explodes, he releases the entire 100 IE, that creates an Embodiment nigh-immediately. By then, the player will be accustomed to seeing IE, and if they see the IE gather when there's such a huge amount and they get a bomb or life piece, they'll almost certainly be convinced to replicate that scenario.

You have pros and cons of summoning Embodiments.

In scoring there would be a qualm of to-collect-or-not-to-collect. If you summon an Embodiment and not die, you get all 100 IE back, in addition to extra graze possibilities which nets you multiplier and max-value Points. On the flip side, the pattern decided (originally) will be randomized, so depending on where you are in the stage and what pattern you get it might throw you totally off. If you bomb or die you lose IE and also some of the stored IE as well, which altogether would be worse than just collecting all the IE in the first place. It will require planning, that's for sure.

Survival on the other hand is simpler, but you still have a decision to make. If you want lives or bombs you do need to summon Embodiments, but you can't bomb them all because if you kill them you get bombs back (redundant gain), and if you die while trying to survive to get the life piece the result is the same, redundant. If you kill it as soon as possible you get your bomb piece quickly, which is the method with the best danger-reward ratio, but all in all going for lives is more beneficial. It's all if the player decides whether or not they want to take a risk with the stage, in both scoring and survival. It's just that the reasons for doing so are different.

Nobu · « **Reply #13 on:** December 07, 2009, 02:19:16 AM »

Posted the table with proper structure Drake. ~~If you want, I can fuse one of your older posts so you'll always have the second post in this topic, or you can just modify the one there right now.~~

Fused, your post should always be second regardless of what I merge to this thread later on.

N-Forza · « **Reply #14 on:** December 07, 2009, 04:42:57 AM »

I think I called what stage I wanted to show up in earlier, but I can't remember which one it was so just put me in OMES. If for whatever reason I need to be moved, Stage 4 and Stage 5 are my next picks in order.

Dizzy H. "Muffin" Muffin · « **Reply #15 on:** December 07, 2009, 09:15:13 AM »

I am leaning towards stage 4 or 5.

Maybe have a different appearance-animation, to play up the "unexpected" thing ... mm, nah, it's not actually the character, that doesn't matter as much.

Mr_Bob · « **Reply #16 on:** December 07, 2009, 09:29:16 AM »

If it is theoretically possible to encounter 28 Embodiments, but there are only 20 available, that would certainly mean there would be repeats, even if the order of appearance is randomized each playthrough. If some variety is needed, I'd like to be added to the list. I have ideas for some quick patterns too.

Nobu · « **Reply #17 on:** December 07, 2009, 09:34:47 AM »

There's already sorta an embodiment waiting list, and even if we tool things around to get more people in we probably won't be able to fit everyone. So it's marginally possible, but don't get your hopes up.

Matsuri · « **Reply #18 on:** December 07, 2009, 12:23:06 PM »

If it would be any help at all to reduce the length of the Embodiment list, I'd be happy to join you and Mode as a midboss of stage 6~

That way it can be the sisterhood attacking all at once!

Nobu · « **Reply #19 on:** December 07, 2009, 02:59:49 PM »

Quote from: Matsuri on December 07, 2009, 12:23:06 PM

If it would be any help at all to reduce the length of the Embodiment list, I'd be happy to join you and Mode as a midboss of stage 6~

That way it can be the sisterhood attacking all at once!

Two midbosses on Stage 6 was already pushing it, and it's only feasible because Mode and I will probably be sharing our one midboss spellcard, and coming back later to help Theorin in battle ala Ran and Chen. Adding another to that would probably be difficult logistically, and would make the last stage even more full of bosses (Me, Mode, Theorin, Rin Satsuki, and then Embodiments)and you'd have to be worked in to Theorin's plot, and.. Yeah, sorry.. ;_;

There are other potential ways to get a few more people in and reduce the size of the embodiment list and/or add more people in that i've mentioned in the past, but we haven't made concrete. Stage 4 has Tenshi reappear as a midboss which is a holdover from when Rou first wrote up the concept. If we replace Tenshi with someone else, that's one more person in the game. That and there are a couple of other different ways we might be able to fit a few more people in.

Sana · « **Reply #20 on:** December 07, 2009, 04:15:46 PM »

I would like to be an embodiment for stage 1! Clones should stick together! :V

Matsuri · « **Reply #21 on:** December 07, 2009, 04:22:39 PM »

Quote from: Nobu~ on December 07, 2009, 02:59:49 PM

Two midbosses on Stage 6 was already pushing it, and it's only feasible because Mode and I will probably be sharing our one midboss spellcard, and coming back later to help Theorin in battle ala Ran and Chen. Adding another to that would probably be difficult logistically, and would make the last stage even more full of bosses (Me, Mode, Theorin, Rin Satsuki, and then Embodiments)and you'd have to be worked in to Theorin's plot, and.. Yeah, sorry.. ;_;

Cadmas · « **Reply #22 on:** December 07, 2009, 05:59:45 PM »

I want to be a stage 3 embodiment.

Nobu · « **Reply #23 on:** December 07, 2009, 06:09:13 PM »

Drake: "Hyphens denote single-stage, asterisks denote appearing in the stage before and the double asterisk means you appeared in stage 4, but not 5." Can you elaborate?

I'm seeing 21 -s, and 6 * and **s. So, the dashes are native to the stage, and the asterisks are Embodiments that were in the previous stage but are also in that stage too? Is that how it works?

And so are we going to have the embodiments randomly chosen or appear in a set order? And will it be possible to run into the same embodiment more than once per run through? (I'm assuming yes, because 20 embodiments with 28 possible appearances)

CK Crash · « **Reply #24 on:** December 07, 2009, 08:10:01 PM »

I have absolutely no stage preference, so use me to fill up any gaps once all the other spots are chosen. Also was embodiment difficulty ever decided on? I suggested that they be as strong as a PoFV Dragon attack, but that's not taking into account that we could design the stages around the embodiment encounters.

Nobu · « **Reply #25 on:** December 07, 2009, 08:14:29 PM »

PoFV Dragon would be too overpowering and cluttering. Embodiment difficulty is probably going to be Fairy or Witch level at most. If the Embodiments were that complex, then what's the point of even having midbosses, non-cards, or generic and death fairies?

Cadmas · « **Reply #26 on:** December 07, 2009, 08:19:48 PM »

Question. Does anyone know where/typography the battles of the stages are taking place?
I might change based on the answer.

Matsuri · « **Reply #27 on:** December 07, 2009, 08:26:35 PM »

Quote from: Nobu~ on December 07, 2009, 08:14:29 PM

PoFV Dragon would be too overpowering and cluttering. Embodiment difficulty is probably going to be Fairy or Witch level at most. If the Embodiments were that complex, then what's the point of even having midbosses, non-cards, or generic and death fairies?

Why not make them based on stage?

Stage 1-2: Fairy
Stage 3-4: Witch
Stage 5-6: Dragon

Nobu · « **Reply #28 on:** December 07, 2009, 08:29:45 PM »

Quote from: Cadmas on December 07, 2009, 08:19:48 PM

Question. Does anyone know where/typography the battles of the stages are taking place?
I might change based on the answer.

Typography?

There's a rough concept in place currently. Ultimately it'll end up being what fits the best based on story/aesthetic situations, with the effort to satisfy as many people's requests for a stage as possible. But if you don't get the exact stage that you want, :dwi:?

Quote from: Matsuri on December 07, 2009, 08:26:35 PM

Why not make them based on stage?

Stage 1-2: Fairy
Stage 3-4: Witch
Stage 5-6: Dragon

Honestly, the only thing that is for sure about the embodiment shot patterns right now is that they will not have 'spell cards'. Difficulty and shot patterns of embodiments is largely up to the programmers and when the stages are being balanced.

The problem with having stage 5-6 being dragon, is you have to realize that there's still going to be normal stuff going on in the stage. Imagine taking a stage 6 from any of the Touhous, then add Embodiments doing semi-random non-synched Dragon class patterns on top of what's already there? It'll be a random clusterfuck of bullets.

Matsuri · « **Reply #29 on:** December 07, 2009, 08:30:40 PM »

Quote from: Nobu~ on December 07, 2009, 08:29:45 PM

The problem with having stage 5-6 being dragon, is you have to realize that there's still going to be normal stuff going on in the stage. Imagine taking a stage 6 from any of the Touhous, then add Embodiments doing semi-random non-synched Dragon class patterns on top of what's already there? It'll be a random clusterfuck of bullets.

Just like in PoFV! I'd be all over that <3