Revenge of Shooter Games Thread

[Bananamatic]

We need more CAVE shmups in the west :V
There is something awesome about streaming HUGE walls.

[moozooh]

While we're on topic of scoring, I must say I greatly respect Perfect Cherry Blossom's scoring system for being Yagawa-deep and well-scaling to the player's skill. There is a good reason an arcade lover like ISO spent well over a thousand hours on it. ZUN never even came close to that ever after, and there are only a handful arcade shmups with systems as elaborate as that.

[Matsuri]

Yeah, of course. There's a reason why Perfect Cherry Blossom is my favorite Touhou game, and always has been. But all the others, UFO aside, lack any uniqueness in scoring, and I'm just not fond of UFO's scoring system

[Zengeku]

In the very least, CAVE stages keep you more engaged in the game (if you're playing for score), while Touhou stages are more 'ooh, look at the pretty colors on the way to the main event!'

That makes sense. But i think Donut's explanation is good here though. Streaming everything isn't very fun to me but the bosses are much more about patterns which too me is far more entertaining. In DDP's stages, almost everything is aimed which makes a lot of the stages seem similar. That's at least how i see it. Also, when i was talking about graphics - i'm not praising Touhou for its backgrounds because they often looks like ZUN taking a picture of his carpet with a crappy discount camera. Its the bullet patterns that intrigues me and i'd say that every single Touhou stage - at least in the windows era have some patterns there are unique to them. That is, in my little world, the best way. I of course respect your ways of thinking as well - i don't want to create a ruckus and say "Touhou is better no matter what!" - That's not my style anymore...

Finally i'd also like to say that i share your thoughts about Touhou stages to a certain extent regarding the stages in comparison to the bosses. The bosses are highly superior to the stage - pretty much always. And sometimes, i'd just wish you could skip those stages... but for me, its the same thing in DDP just even more so.

[Matsuri]

Heee. If ZUN would just make a Touhou DEATH LABEL game, I'd be all over that. Otherwise, I find it hard to find any replayability value to any of the games past Imperishable Night.

[Matsuri]

oh shit

I am so trying that when I have the time

only instead I'm gonna use Larsa's first theme instead of the Ketsui TLB mentioned :V

Oh my god, wow.

That was the most fun I've had playing Touhou in months.

After that I played PCB stage 3 to Mushifutari Stage 1's theme, with the usual boss theme for Alice. It almost seemed perfectly timed to the action in the game.

I think I'll play like this more often!

EDIT: I (attempted) to play a full game using a custom soundtrack and 90fps speed.

The tracks I used, if you were interested:

Stage 1: 'Sea of Frozen Crystals' [Mushihimesama Futari Stage 2]
Letty: 'Levi=Sense' [Mushihimesama Boss theme]
Stage 2: 'Degeneracy' [Battle Garegga 'Plant' stage]
Chen: 'Thrust and Thrash!' [Battle Garegga Surface Boss theme]
Stage 3: 'Subversive Awareness' [Battle Garegga 'Cloud' stage]
Alice: 'Bestial Beat' [Mushihimesama Futari Boss theme]
Stage 4: 'Like the Night of Falling Stars' [Mushihimesama Stage 4 theme]
Prismriver Sisters: 'Severing the Chains of Fate' [Trauma Center: Under the Knife 2 Final Operation Theme (by Manabu Namiki, if you couldn't make the connection )]
Stage 5: 'Floating Castle Utsurobune' [Espgaluda Stage 5 theme]
Youmu: 'Burn Yourself' [DoDonPachi Dai-Ou-Jou Boss theme]
Stage 6: 'On the Verge of Madness' [Mushihimesama Futari Stage 5 theme]
Yuyuko: 'Cry! Scream!' [Mushihimesama Futari Final Boss theme]
Yuyuko's 'Perfect Cherry Blossom of Sumizome' and 'Resurrection Butterfly': 'Sky of Fragrant Souls' [Mushihimesama Futari Spiritual Larsa theme]

I didn't 1cc it, but damn it, it was a ton of fun.

[nintendonut888]

Oh, speaking of those songs, do you know or have a link to the Mushihimesama final boss theme? As in, the one before TLB Aki? You can't find hardly any videos of that fight at all, let alone the song.

And, well, I'm not a score-runner. I somehow find enjoyment in just playing for survival. So nyeh.

[moozooh]

Try this link.

[Ghaleon]

Touhou stages are more distinct? What? Pretty much every stage in Touhou is a repeating background or a nondescript swirly background with wave after wave of enemies that fire roughly the same pattern at you. And saying that the graphics are boring to watch is like saying the graphics of Doom are boring compared to Modern Warfare 2. As for bullet color... wait, why are you solely focusing on the aesthetic aspect of a game in comparison to Touhou-- especially when it's older than every Touhou game except the Highly Responsive to Prayers?

I agree and disagree with some points.

1: If the game is that much older, then comparing its graphics is indeed not really fair.

2. Graphics, in my opinion, are a very unimportant aspect of video gaming, I completely agree. HOWEVER...There is something about the near-art of the bullet patterns that appear in Touhou (which for the most part only occur during bosses, however there are some other parts as well). While a game can be great without graphics, It should be worth noting that there is definately no fault in appreciating those pretty patterns IMO. The only thing that I can really compare it to is playing the first PS2 Castlevania (which is hard to appreciate to its full extend due to shitty camera). Reviewers praise the 2nd one more for this regard, but that's dumb, you can clearly see most of the walls and floors are undecorated and copy-pasted 90% of the game! While I enjoy those games even without the graphics, there's a second way to enjoy it by just enjoying the exploration of it in a way.

3: Touhou stages are boring for me too, however, the music in the stages can distract you from the boring gameplay, and make you enjoy yourself regardless. For example, I find PCB stage 3 and 4 to be pretty repetitive, however the music supplied in those stages... *swoons*. I mean it sounds good even if you're distracted with the game.

I've played several shooters now, no where near as much as you or Aisha or whatever. But I'm pretty sure I'll be hard-pressed to ever find a shooter that's as good as Touhou (but I'll keep my eyes open still) in terms of mesmerizing (regardless of difficulty or fun) bullet patterns. It's like being high on LSD or something, It's hard to explain >=p

[moozooh]

You might want to try the Espgaluda series then, especially when using kakusei actively.

[Ghaleon]

You might want to try the Espgaluda series then, especially when using kakusei actively.

Me? I actually would have already (part 1 that is) if it wasn't for this crack.. I mean game called Labyrinth of Touhou >=P, haven't gotten around to playing it yet lol, too hooked.

[BoLaD]

Nice to see Zengeku actually trying to give Dodonpachi a chance, rather than just throwing crap out there. That reminds me, this is the first time I've played an STG in weeks.... god damn my workload is huge atm.

P.S- Dodonpachi on MAME would be about 5X better if the controls were perfect. These games are REALLY limited when you aren't using an arcade stick. ;_;

[Aisha]

The thing with bullet patterns, at least for me, is that they're only briefly impressive. I don't boot PCB, SA, or fuck, even UFO, to be impressed by the bullet patterns anymore. I've seen them once; they've mesmerized me; and they've made me wonder how much ZUN had to drink to make them (etc). I really do appreciate them and ZUN's creativity, but at the same time, I don't find them to be able to sustain my interest in a game. Beyond the initial impressions, what's left--are they actually to fun dodge, and are they arranged in a way that makes the stages fun to play? Having a good scoring mechanic factors in at this point as well, because it usually dictates how a game is meant to be played; you could have the funnest bullet patterns ever, but if you're going to force me to play with an Ikaruga-style scoring system, I'm not touching your game. :V

That's where I think Cave (and when I say Cave, I mean Cave and others) does stages better. The patterns look like shit, and are usually at most two-tone, but they're fun to dodge, because they maintain a consistently-paced high-level of intensity that keeps you moving and utilizing large portions of the screen. The games usually couple that with a fun scoring mechanic (chaining is shit though). To me, that's what make a shmup fun, and that's what keeps me coming back. PCB had a great score-system, and because of it alone, I kept going back to PCB for a long time.

Cave games also have their own visual flair, which comes through the stage backgrounds and enemy designs, although you probably won't find that in DoDonPachi; but of course, after a while they do become about as interesting to look at as Touhou's bullet patterns described above.

[nintendonut888]

Try this link.

Doesn't work.

[BoLaD]

Aisha pretty much summed up the reasons as to why I'm slowly losing interest in Touhou shooters (just the games, I'm still addicted to fanon) and moving on to Cave games.

[Formless God]

And, well, I'm not a score-runner. I somehow find enjoyment in just playing for survival. So nyeh.

Ah ... same here . It's more fun than memorizing a bunch of spots/patterns to collect score points *cough*AM's UFO Lunatic*cough*.
You do have to survive/capture spell cards to score. But I'm nowhere close to that yet.

[Be Pok U (1998 burst style)]

Does touhou games have a fairly lower hitbox size-to-play area ratio compared to other shooters ?

[Matsuri]

Not particularly.They're larger than most modern shmups, if anything. In Mushihimesama Futari Maniac and Ultra modes, the hitbox is literally 2x2 pixels. You may scoff at how tiny it is, but the game will have the last laugh. Seriously.

[Ghaleon]

Not particularly.They're larger than most modern shmups, if anything. In Mushihimesama Futari Maniac and Ultra modes, the hitbox is literally 2x2 pixels. You may scoff at how tiny it is, but the game will have the last laugh. Seriously.

I'm not the expert, but I was thinking "it's actually quite large for a danmaku shmup I think".. But when I think more, most Touhou bullets seem to have a smaller hitbox than you'd expect initially (most), how much of this would you agree with?

I mean, I have yet to see my hitbox in any other shooter actually go inside the graphics of some bullets in other shmups, and come out alive.

[Matsuri]

In most CAVE shmups, there are larger bullets you can pass through the edges of-- or at least it seems that way. Not to the ridiculous extent of Touhou's bubble bullets, but close.

Bullets with hitboxes and hitboxes with smaller points of vulnerability are more common than you think, really.

[Aisha]

I mean, I have yet to see my hitbox in any other shooter actually go inside the graphics of some bullets in other shmups, and come out alive.

Play Blue Wish Resurrection (Plus or not) or Eden's Aegis. The hitboxes in these games are ridiculously tiny, at least in proportion to the sprites. I've literally had my entire hitbox covered (couldn't see it) and managed to come out alive. No other game with more generous hitboxes comes to mind.

[Be Pok U (1998 burst style)]

well I heard somewhere the actual game area in touhou is really small, along with the significant hitbox; makes me think touhou's gameplay is stagnating from it.

[Azinth]

well I heard somewhere the actual game area in touhou is really small, along with the significant hitbox; makes me think touhou's gameplay is stagnating from it.

By 'play area,' are you referring to the amount of space you have available to move or the amount that the patterns actually require you to move?  If the first, not really, it's not that much smaller than what most games give you.  If the second, it's true that a lot of Touhou patterns don't require much movement if you're playing for survival, but if you're scorerunning you do have to move around the screen a fair bit (the PoC and grazing mechanics sort of force that out of you). 

And a lot of people do say that Touhou is stagnating, but it doesn't really have to do with hitbox sizes. >.>

[Ghaleon]

I wouldn't know much about Touhou stagnating as a shooter. I know I personally didn't enjoy SA and UFO as much as the previous ones...And that isn't nostalgia talking, UFO was already close to release when I just discovered Touhou!

However Touhou, as everything, including those that aren't shooting games, I don't think it's stagnating at all. In 10 years, for every 1 Starbucks locations, you'll have 2 Touhou retail stores!...Ok maybe not, but still >=P.

[Azinth]

The stagnating thing is just from the fact that he's been using the same game design since TH6 with only slight variations here and there, basically all the complaints that Aisha has against the games.  ZUN seems like the doujin equivalent of Psikyo, I guess.  He sticks to his formula and doesn't deviate much.  If you like said formula, you'll like all his games, and if you hate it, you'll hate all his games.  Unsurprisingly enough, most arcade shmup players seem to unanimously agree that StB is the best Touhou game, and surprise, that's the one game that is different from anything else ZUN has put out.

And going back to you being interested in pretty/'trippy' shmups, you could always try Hellsinker.  It's easily one of the most artistic and bizarre shmups I've ever seen, even moreso than Touhou in many respects.  I never figured out how the actual game works though. =P

[Ghaleon]

The stagnating thing is just from the fact that he's been using the same game design since TH6 with only slight variations here and there, basically all the complaints that Aisha has against the games.  ZUN seems like the doujin equivalent of Psikyo, I guess.  He sticks to his formula and doesn't deviate much.  If you like said formula, you'll like all his games, and if you hate it, you'll hate all his games.  Unsurprisingly enough, most arcade shmup players seem to unanimously agree that StB is the best Touhou game, and surprise, that's the one game that is different from anything else ZUN has put out.

And going back to you being interested in pretty/'trippy' shmups, you could always try Hellsinker.  It's easily one of the most artistic and bizarre shmups I've ever seen, even moreso than Touhou in many respects.  I never figured out how the actual game works though. =P

I did try it actually. But the aura of you slow bullets down and sometimes they dissapear was just an aspect of the game that really turned it off for me. Just like how I hate color changing schemes like Ikaruga/vampire rex. I didn't really feel like I was dodging bullets and shooting enemies in Hellsinker, it really feels like you're using the unique mechanics of the game to complete the game...Which is fine sure, but it's just not what I want to play when I feel like a shmup... I hope that makes sense.

[Gammeru]

So, I've been playing some other games to keep my mind off the fact that I am unable to play Mushi.

...:jealousy:

Edit: Trippy shmups? Try Garden of Coloured Lights or Spheres of Chaos. Not very complex, but they're pretty to watch. The latter may burn your eyes out, though.

[Ghaleon]

WAHHHH MUSHII!!!

Sorry, didn't wanna quote fifty links.

I know how you feel, I got my box of Mushi like 6ft away from my face first thing I wake up every morning.

I'm happy I have it though, I feel empowered!

[Ghaleon]

wtf is this thread stagnating!

I tried Shikigami 3...Yeah not too into it. The game really has potential, but it has some flaws. The music is as boring and uninspired as anything I've ever heard, and the invisible blocks thing is just stupid (especially if you chose the guy with homing shots like me, they don't home in on the lights!). In addition, I find it to be kinda difficult to know where you are sometimes because your own bullets can really dominate the screen (sometimes it makes seeing other bullets difficult too). I like how grazing recovers your bomb count though (in addition to points). It would be a cool game anyway I suppose, but..Those blocks, ugh.

[Aisha]

I haven't played Shikigami no Shiro 3, but these legendary invisible blocks are making me want to check it out.