Anyone else here that refuses to play online?

[AlexX Unlimited]

General addiction and wanting to get better as there is competition.

And this does not apply to MMOs... how?

I can play PS2 for 7-8 hours straight, but I can put it down anytime and everything stops.

Everything stops as far as your character is concerned, too. Unless you want to be "DA BEST" in an MMO, there's really no reason to force yourself to be among the top players.

Grinding is also much more enjoyable in non MMO games, most of the time it isn't even required as you can make up for the lower levels with skill or strategy, and even if you need to grind for an hour, you won't get bored at all and the results will be noticeable.

Again, this applies to MMOs as well (unless you play for PvP, anyways).

Most PvE dungeons do not require grinding, per se. Heck, talk with players who have multiple characters and they'll tell you they have thought up strategies for doing higher-level quests/dungeons with lower-level chars to help raise their level for stuff they want that has a level requirement (like a specific weapon or event). The reason grinding FEELS manditory at first is because you're not as familiar with how things work, so when something gives you trouble you decide to simply level yourself to plow through it rather than try something new (unlike people who've played a while, who have learned the mechanics and use their second character with which to experiment since their high-level one usually won't need to aside maybe dungeons specifically for high-levels).

On that note, standard RPGs are like this as well. If you're having trouble a lot of people will just grind a few more levels, rather than just try a different tactic (which is why some RPGs have started including anti-grinding stuff to prevent people from just grinding to the top without any formal strategy... see: Tales of Destiny remake and Devil Survivor).

MMOs? Grind for 8 hours. Definitely not fun and unavoidable. A general waste of time.

ITT we rag on people who like MMOs. Oh wait, that was the point. Nevermind.

Unfortunately, you'll realize it only after quitting it forever. That's why I'm not touching one again :V

I just play ones that interest me, whenever I feel like playing. Is it really that hard to just play a few hours each weekend? =V

[shadowbringer]

Tinari:
- Touhou games (and emulators that allow you to record your inputs) allows you to save inputs; 2DF (and the older versions of GGPO) allows you to record and playback matches in fighting games/Twinkle Star Sprites
- you mentioned that you like the ability of MMOGs/Pok?mon to display how much time you've spent playing a game. I'll admit that I don't play Pok?mon, but let's differentiate playtime from a player's actual skill as a whole. These two aren't necessarily the same; there will be games that you and someone else pick up at the same time, yet one will adapt himself/herself faster in that game. This result could have a different outcome for a different game/genre, so, imho, a player's ability should be considered, not the playtime itself. Therefore, if a game tests, as a criteria of who should win, how much time one spent playing it, rather than how good he/she really is under fair conditions, one shouldn't feel bad for losing. And if you're winning in such a kind of game, think of the people who grind the game (not really thinking of Pok?mon here, but mainly MMORPGs, with their insane level caps and resources, overupgrading, rare crafting materials and that sort of time-consuming tasks) to unhealthy extents. Can one say that they're more skilled than, say, someone who plays fighting games/shmups competitively, and don't spend as much hours per day playing?
- since I mentioned (somewhat) that when two players of the same level of skill meet each other and are given different resources (one set being *better* than the other, as in providing more attack/defense, having a more leveled up character, etc.), the fact that one has advantages over the other (besides the players' abilities) sort of makes that match unfair, and detracts from the winner's merit. So, by this idea, a DotA/WarCraft match would be fair, a GunBound match (with avatar items turned off) would be fair, a GunZ: The Duel/Grand Chase match (with the same equipments and level) would be fair, and so on. Unfortunately, though, most MMOGs aren't as merciful, and expect people to keep leveling/grinding for equips/items, in order to maintain/increase their playerbase and continue earning money and keeping the servers alive.
- as for playing for the interaction with friends and having fun with them, I agree with you. (just to explain my point of view, however, if I like to play certain games that also have competitive value in them, either for scoreruns or for playing online/offline with/against my buddies, that competition will motivate people to keep playing and improving themselves, maintain/increase a playerbase that has a different motivation/mindset to play that game/genre, and be a way to make that game "resist the test of time")
- as for playing MMOGs as a time-killer, I have no objections as well.

[Bananamatic]

On that note, standard RPGs are like this as well. If you're having trouble a lot of people will just grind a few more levels, rather than just try a different tactic (which is why some RPGs have started including anti-grinding stuff to prevent people from just grinding to the top without any formal strategy... see: Tales of Destiny remake and Devil Survivor).
ITT we rag on people who like MMOs. Oh wait, that was the point. Nevermind.
I just play ones that interest me, whenever I feel like playing. Is it really that hard to just play a few hours each weekend? =V

Depends on the MMO. Most of them are just number wars, without any real skill required.
Numbers are gained through wasting time, then add in some RNG and you have a winner.

That's why I don't play them. No skill required, only gear, levels, etc.

I barely ever grind in RPGs, I usually end up underleveled yet I still pull through with a good strategy.
That's what most MMOs don't allow.
Can't beat something? Grind more levels/grind e-monies for better gear.

I prefer playing console RPGs for a few hours a day and improve actual gaming skill instead of clicking.
But that's just me :V

[Sapz]

Same story as BoLaD here, pretty much. :V Played MapleStory for around three years, got to level 11x, led a guild of forty people, spent way too much time and money on it and eventually it started affecting my schoolwork, so I made myself drop it. It's only MMOs that I refuse to play, though; most other games aren't as addictive or time-consuming (or expensive) so I'm okay with them.

[KomeijiKoishi]

I also hate MMORPGs. When you start, it's fun because you can level up very fast, but if you have to spend multiple hours just for one extra point, you really ask yourself WHY.
Now I'm playing Battlefield Heroes. If somebody wants to add me, add "ToramaruShou".
And yeah, I know that you only gain extra points at every even level, but Buccaneer Bay is AWESOME.

[Ghaleon]

Depends on the MMO. Most of them are just number wars, without any real skill required.
Numbers are gained through wasting time, then add in some RNG and you have a winner.

That's why I don't play them. No skill required, only gear, levels, etc.

I barely ever grind in RPGs, I usually end up underleveled yet I still pull through with a good strategy.
That's what most MMOs don't allow.
Can't beat something? Grind more levels/grind e-monies for better gear.

I prefer playing console RPGs for a few hours a day and improve actual gaming skill instead of clicking.
But that's just me :V

While I understand what you're saying, and even agree for the most part. That's not completely true for MMOs. For example, I'm often not allowed to bring a character to some group or another when I play WoW for example (albeit I cannot speak for other mmos) because I need better gear, or I don't have enough spellpower, or hp, or attackpower, or whatever the hell it is they think I need an arbitrary number of. But yet I can excell at whatever role I need to do in it and even pull groups thru it if they aren't capable of doing it alone.

However, this in my opinion is mostly because people expect the requirements and the average to be higher than needed for me not because my skill is that great or whatever. But because your average mmo player sucks *that* bad..like.. really bad.

[trancehime]

It may be tedious and annoying to have to grind for a long time in an MMORPG, but in a single player game, like Tinari has been saying, you have absolutely nothing to show for it. I've done countless feats in single player games, especially RPGs, but they amount to nothing because nobody actually knows about it unless I go through the tedium of recording it with substandard equipment (If you dig through my YouTube channel here, towards the last few pages you can see some of them). As a person, I admit I like to be noticed, and since I have absolutely no talent aside from video games (lol) I must turn my attentions towards MMORPGs - and I love it! I might not be the absolute best at it, but at least I get to show people how good I am at something. The same is true for multiplayer games in general.

I like to be able to show my skill at something. Single player games in that respect just don't cut it for me. I'll still play them when I'm not at home, since I mainly play on handhelds, but.

I also hate MMORPGs. When you start, it's fun because you can level up very fast, but if you have to spend multiple hours just for one extra point, you really ask yourself WHY.
Now I'm playing Battlefield Heroes. If somebody wants to add me, add "ToramaruShou".
And yeah, I know that you only gain extra points at every even level, but Buccaneer Bay is AWESOME.

I honestly wouldn't mind spending multiple hours just for that "one extra point," actually. It's a long process, but along the way, when I meet that scenario, I get to interact with more people. It's an MMORPG fer chrissakes, you don't solo ALL the time =_= Even I've started Arad Senki again recently, I am not Japanese but I can get along fine with them >_>

[Esoterica]

Stopped MMORPGs for that reason, but I still play TF2 or would if my only computer that could run it hadn't been dead since June.

[Bananamatic]

It may be tedious and annoying to have to grind for a long time in an MMORPG, but in a single player game, like Tinari has been saying, you have absolutely nothing to show for it. I've done countless feats in single player games, especially RPGs, but they amount to nothing because nobody actually knows about it unless I go through the tedium of recording it with substandard equipment (If you dig through my YouTube channel here, towards the last few pages you can see some of them). As a person, I admit I like to be noticed, and since I have absolutely no talent aside from video games (lol) I must turn my attentions towards MMORPGs - and I love it! I might not be the absolute best at it, but at least I get to show people how good I am at something.

I like to be able to show my skill at something. Single player games in that respect just don't cut it for me. I'll still play them when I'm not at home, since I mainly play on handhelds, but.

I've had to ;_;

Yeah, it sucks when your skill goes unnoticed....top MMO players are known all over the boards, but when is somebody good at some obscure game, no one knows about it even though it involves more than endlessly beating monsters while sipping coke and eating hotdogs.
And no matter what people say, everyone likes to get noticed when you are good at something and that goes for everything, not just games :V

[trancehime]

And no matter what people say, everyone likes to get noticed when you are good at something and that goes for everything, not just games :V

Yes, it does go for everything.

It is however kind of sad when you are good at nothing else except that though :V

[Paul Debrion]

So once again I find that the general consensus among video gamers and game companies is that I am nothing more than a myth, and I simply do not exist.  :V

[Bananamatic]

It is however kind of sad when you are good at nothing else except that though :V

Same here. I suck at everything except for videogames :V

[Cabble]

I played Mabinogi for half a year until the updates stopped altogether (RIGHT before G4), I played CoH for a few years, and everquest (back when I was 4.)

I don't play online games anymore. I just quit the last one that I was playing, that was really fun too. It got trampled over by kids. not 11 year olds, 5 year olds.

[Rabbit]

I mostly stopped playing MMOs due to money and interest constraints.  If people I know are playing it and we can talk about shared experiences outside the game a little bit in real life, it makes the whole experience so much more enjoyable.  Grinding on your own's no fun.  That said I have no objection to MMOs themselves or anyone who plays them.

Refusing to play online is a bit of a loaded term, makes it feel like everyone who does it is a sheep which is just not true or fair.  It's no less valid as a form of social interaction than any IRC channel.  Everything in moderation.  Eat white meats, brown bread, drink water and get plenty of sleep :V

[Tinari]

I would like to bring to light something about how everyone brings up "fair" as a point against MMOs, how a person can spend more time, get better gear and that it is unfair.

Of course that's unfair by the very definition of it, but I don't think that anyone who goes into these games expects anything to be fair.  Unless you specifically go out of your way to wear the same things, be the same class and race and duel in an area you're both comfortable with, it's NOT fair.  Class A vs B isn't fair.  B vs C isn't fair and C vs A is definitely not fair.

Now that I have that out of the way I would also like to bring up as an ex-WoW player that I was not a raid type person.  I did not do the whole guild thing and I was a solo player for most of it.  I did manage to get into PuGs because I read a lot about raids and knew what I was doing and when some group wanted a PuG or was helping people for fun, I could get in on that.  So my gear wasn't top tier by any means but as a loaner/PuGger I did manage to assemble a decent set of gear.

And ya know what?  I love when a person of the same class as me with 3K more health and clearly superior gear jumped me and I stomped them because I knew how to do more than just tap out the same tried and true combo that works on anyone who doesn't have half a brain.  You'd be amazed how often a person with more forethought, knowledge of the classes and abilities and typical strategies can beat a person who invested "more time" and has better gear.

Not being fair is honestly the least of my concerns when I go into said kind of game.  I don't know why everyone is hung up on that. Chess is fair, as is checkers.  Or is it?  The person who moves first has an advantage don't they?  Or maybe the guy who goes second has a plan that can only work if he goes second that makes it unfair.  Probably not, but in my opinion the best games in my list of recent games I love ARE COMPLETELY UNFAIR.  Why?  Because they're not pong.  Team Fortress 2 for example.  The game isn't perfectly fair or balanced but it's great fun.  WoW can be great fun too at high level when you get into a groove of something you like.  Ragnarok Online was definitely not fair for some classes but it was great back fun back in the day.


TL:DR

Fair is something I don't care about and is meaningless as the best games I've ever played online or offline have had major unfair elements. :3


P.S.

Yes, online games aren't for everyone.  Most require grinding as it puts a goal out that is far out of reach so gamers will have to grind their ears off just to get it.  But has anyone here ever thought that there ARE people who do like grinding?  When I played Fallout 3 (Not long, I actually don't like it or Oblivion) I would remake a character very often.  I never beat either game as I would be too often remaking the character and starting over and grinding out different character ideas and builds until the game bored me.

[shadowbringer]

Tinari:
- it's possible for MMORPGs to have well-balanced enough classes (if not all, at least most of them. Neither of us would like to see healers fighting themselves, or some damage-dealer/tanker taking on one) and give different classes at similar level ranges a close enough win ratio in pvp (though I care for gvg the most, especially because wizards [1] are more fit for teamwork -- gvg and/or MVP/raids)

- Rock/Paper/Scissors is fine too, someone having developed more skill (faster response/more experience on particular situations/more knowledge on what you and the opponent can do/more psychological preparation, etc.) than other is fine too

- someone being on a higher level or having better equipment (more attack/more defense/more stat boosts/status effects, and resistance to them, etc.) will have better chances, in the cases where previously there was balance

- that player who you've defeated deserved it. Well done. I had friends that could single-handedly eliminate 5 characters who tried to gank on him (he was mid-leveled, like the others), not before telling them that they wouldn't be able to defeat him (but also not telling them why -- the answer, he could evade their attacks through some acquired skill). That same friend once defeated a lvl. 70 character with his lvl. 60, due to being properly buffed up (through his.. support characters in alternate accounts ). As for my personal achievements, there's not much that a Wizard/High Wizard can do on pvp in RO. If someone falls for my stuff, it's their fault, not my merit. The same can be said for my case, if I happen to not have the proper resistance (except when it comes to resistance against Stun.. in order to have full resistance against it, you're required to have a very rare item -- 00.01% -- from a boss, who normally respawns one time an hour after being defeated).

- the higher level you are, the more are the possibilities for top equipments, and the more effort they take to be made/found/upgraded. By that time, you can't expect opponents to commit as much mistakes as in former levels, which is okay. This is when the skill level of its players will be similarly high, and when whoever has more equipments/levels (and number of good players, in gvg, WoEs, Castle Sieges, alliance vs. alliance, etc.) will make their advantages become more noticeable and have better chances of winning. (it's still possible to pull out strategies/combinations for invading/defending territories, but if the opponent side can't counter these, then it's their mistake. They might learn from it -- as expected from competent, skilled players --, adapt themselves, and make such battles once again have equipments/levels as an advantage)

- I used to enjoy grinding, to an extent (both solo and party hunting, for items or spot leveling). But (as I mentioned in the MMORPG thread) I quit them when I lost some 34 +8 Staves of Piercing in RO trying to get one of them to +10, and hearing, from the same mastersmith that tried to upgrade them for me, that he was able to get 2 of them to +10, out of his 10 Staves.

- new skills, features and dungeons are something that kept me and my friends playing.


[1] once, a friend of mine ranted on how, everytime I played a MMORPG (Priston Tale, RO, L2..), I would play as a magic user D:


Signum-Hime:
single-player (and 2-player) games do have stuff that you can show to others. Scores, videos, challenges.. and I'd say, they're more rewarding, more difficult. So difficult that few MMORPG players would try them, yet many people who play MMORPGs seem to pay more attention to who's better in their game(s) -- my complaint is that most of these people may haven't noticed that play time gives advantages in MMOs, thus giving an illusion/impression that their accomplishments were due to their skill alone, and that merely being a better player could make you reach the top players' level; my complaint is that the respect towards these top players isn't justified.
Personally, I don't give much value if someone says "I was playing here since the beta" or "we were the first guild to kill boss X/kill boss X with N people in the party", or "our castle X has remained uninvaded for N weeks/months before we finally dropped it for castle Y". But I care for stuff like this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cAd-vPODVOA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5L2SNX7k4v8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bKt1Pu6z7-w
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7m7WO8u28uE (I don't prefer combo movies/demonstrations over actual matches, but if I were to show one, many things could go on unnoticed on it without explanation about them; plus, that player's very good, not because of combos)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DEtCWmlud7c

tl;dr:
- hearing people boast that they have better equipments, or that they play better than me, when in fact he/she has the advantage of equipments/levels/numbers (instead of that person being actually better than me), is disagreeable.

[trancehime]

I've done countless challenges on single player RPG games that go unnoticed for whatever reason, I don't know, maybe it is just me.

It just saddens me, so I turn to such things. Of course, I do not boast about things like that in THAT respect, because I know being a long time player of SOMETHING gives you advantages over others. But starting from the bottom and making your way up to the top somehow makes me feel better as opposed to, say, me soloing the Four Stars x2 Battle with Annie on Unknown difficulty in ToR, sure, it is a pretty damned crazy feat but a very select few people know about the game itself (Hi Sana)

[Bananamatic]

me soloing the Four Stars x2 Battle with Annie on Unknown difficulty in ToR, sure, it is a pretty damned crazy feat but a very select few people know about the game itself (Hi Sana)

I know about that game....it's just almost impossible to get over here, just like most of the Tales games.

[helvetica]

Bullshit, there's nothing about an MMO/online that makes it "easier" than a single player game.  It's just that, a game you can play with lots of other people, most involving a persistent world of some kind.

If you don't like the MMO/MP style, so be it, it's not for everyone.  But don't disparage people for enjoying it by saying they're too "afraid" for a real challenge or that they're too simple.  There's NOTHING that makes an MMO or an MP game any simpler or easier than a single player game, and oftentimes they can present a challenge that cannot be met with scripted monsters or bosses.  Saying "oh it's only because you dropped more time in it", guess what, that's how it works in every game, multiplayer or single player.  You get better at games not because of innate skill but because of learning the tricks of the trade.  There's some things involving reflexes etc, but to know HOW to use those reflexes or to know what things to do is simply from playing the game more.

It's just a different gamestyle.  If you don't enjoy it, so be it, but don't bash people who do.

[Bananamatic]

Bullshit, there's nothing about an MMO/online that makes it "easier" than a single player game.  It's just that, a game you can play with lots of other people, most involving a persistent world of some kind.

If you don't like the MMO/MP style, so be it, it's not for everyone.  But don't disparage people for enjoying it by saying they're too "afraid" for a real challenge or that they're too simple.  There's NOTHING that makes an MMO or an MP game any simpler or easier than a single player game, and oftentimes they can present a challenge that cannot be met with scripted monsters or bosses.  Saying "oh it's only because you dropped more time in it", guess what, that's how it works in every game, multiplayer or single player.  You get better at games not because of innate skill but because of learning the tricks of the trade.  There's some things involving reflexes etc, but to know HOW to use those reflexes or to know what things to do is simply from playing the game more.

It's just a different gamestyle.  If you don't enjoy it, so be it, but don't bash people who do.

Offline games do involve innate skill though, mostly genre based.
People that play shmups often are usually able to grab a new game and move to the higher difficulties almost immediately after adjusting to the controls and mechanics, while a complete newbie will have problems on lower difficulties.
I know that you've already pointed out reflexes, but it goes for pretty much every genre, from RTS to puzzle games.

Even when you get bored of shmups, you've improved your reflexes at the very least and had fun every second playing(face it, every MMO player was raging at some point from grinding or endless quests) - but when I've quit a MMO, there was just that "wow, that was a huge waste of time" feeling.

I've already experienced that two times and I know that's how every MMO ends, so now I just rather avoid them altogether so I don't get hooked and waste money on it.

[RainfallYoshi]

I find it funny how people constantly refer to MMO's as a "waste of money" when most of the good ones are free and don't even require money unless you really feel like it.

As for the "waste of time" part, any type of game can be called a waste of time because you're doing nothing productive by sitting in front of a screen playing a game. Just don't play the game if you don't enjoy it, simple as that.

[trancehime]

Offline games do involve innate skill though, mostly genre based.
People that play shmups often are usually able to grab a new game and move to the higher difficulties almost immediately after adjusting to the controls and mechanics, while a complete newbie will have problems on lower difficulties.
I know that you've already pointed out reflexes, but it goes for pretty much every genre, from RTS to puzzle games.

There are MMOs that also involve innate skill if you're using that logic.

Valkyrie Sky is a MMO Shmup, and there are several beat-em-up MMOs too that require some degree of "innate" skill in some senses of the word.

[shadowbringer]

points brought up:
- if you don't like that kind of game, then don't play
it's fine if our preferences and motivations to play certain games/genres are different, I've already explained why I felt that MMOGs wouldn't reward/motivate me to keep playing (besides them having new content and allowing me to interact with friends in a different way), and I'm not going to say that other people should think that way.

- starting from bottom and climbing up to the top makes me feel better
I understand the feeling of character improvement, and the sense of progress (as you explore new areas), as part of a game's experience, and that's a good aspect. You're able to stop your progress and resume later from where you left off.
However, to climb to the top, it's necessary to grind progressively more. Since the goal (reaching the top) is subjective, and will always have room for improvement (or else, people who reach it may lose interest in the game), people who have played the game for more time (either by having started playing it before you, or by spending more hours per day/week) will have more advantages. Plus, there's sometimes the luck factor (rare drops, upgrade/crafting success rates). (again, motivations varies from player to player. PvE/raids, to me, was the mean to obtain resources for GvG; to other people, GvG may not mean as much as PvE/Raids)

- players of MMO/MP games aren't afraid of challenges
I didn't mean that they're all afraid, and play their games only because theirs would be easier. But, if you show them (but not limited to them) things like this, most of them will deem that game to be out of their current ability range/zone of comfort, forever. Most. (the person who uploaded this video was/is also a MMORPG player)
It's disappointing to see that these types of games (single/2P games) don't get talked about as much by players of MMOG/MP, it's as if these are avoided, left to be forgotten, or made into a taboo.

There's NOTHING that makes an MMO or an MP game any simpler or easier than a single player game, and oftentimes they can present a challenge that cannot be met with scripted monsters or bosses.

there aren't rules saying that people developing single-player/2P games should make them harder/easier, and like I said above, I didn't mean that the people playing MMOGs/MPs only play it because they would choose easy/easier options. But I'd like to know how a MMO/MP (besides RTSes such as StarCraft, but my issue was with games that offerred in-game advantages to people who played them longer) would be more difficult than, say, scoring competitively at certain shmups, or attaining a notorious placement in a competitive enough fighting game tournament.

Saying "oh it's only because you dropped more time in it", guess what, that's how it works in every game, multiplayer or single player

http://www.gamasutra.com/features/20060222/sirlin_01.shtml

There are also a lot of things us Street Fighter players take for granted. They are truths so self-evident, that we never talk about them because it never even occurs to us that these aren't givens. Here's a few examples:

    * A fair game does not give material advantages to one player over the other
    * A fair game gives each player equal opportunity to bring whatever legal materials he wants (in our case, you can choose any character you want, no need to grind him to level 60. All players have immediate equal access to all characters.)
    * It's ok (and the entire point!) to bring to the game a) more knowledge than your opponent about the nuances of the game, and b) more skill than your opponent.
    * Time invested should count for nothing in a fair game. It might take me 1 hour to learn a few nuances and gain a certain level of skill and you 1000 hours. The hours don't matter; only the knowledge and skill matter.
    * I'll say it again: winning is a meritocracy.
    * Finally, playing a fair game is what it's all about. It would never occur to us to play a game where one player gets to do 50% more damage because he has a level 60 Chun Li.


I pretty much agree with him, especially about this last part. It increases the chances of a skilled MMOG player (who may happen to be just starting his alt. character and thus have a low level) losing to someone who's simply higher-leveled. (no matter how well the former player has played that class before on his friends' accounts, for example.)

There are MMOs that also involve innate skill if you're using that logic.

Valkyrie Sky is a MMO Shmup, and there are several beat-em-up MMOs too that require some degree of "innate" skill in some senses of the word.

like I said before in this post, my issue is with games that offer in-game advantages to people who played it for a longer time. It's not fair, to me, to be blamed if I lose to another player due to having less/not-so-good resources, instead of that other player having played better.

[Bananamatic]

I pretty much agree with him, especially about this last part. It increases the chances of a skilled MMOG player (who may happen to be just starting his alt. character and thus have a low level) losing to someone who's simply higher-leveled. (no matter how well the former player has played that class before on his friends' accounts, for example.)

like I said before in this post, my issue is with games that offer in-game advantages to people who played it for a longer time. It's not fair, to me, to be blamed if I lose to another player due to having less/not-so-good resources, instead of that other player having played better.

This. So much.
If I'm going to lose to somebody, it should be because the other person was simply better, not because they've started playing 2 months before I have or because they got extremely lucky and got a good drop.

No matter how skilled and how much knowledge of that game you have, nothing will save you when the level gap is too big.
There isn't too much thinking involved either, as you can easily copy a character build off some guide and the rest is just gear/levels/RNG.

[AlexX Unlimited]

This. So much.
If I'm going to lose to somebody, it should be because the other person was simply better, not because they've started playing 2 months before I have or because they got extremely lucky and got a good drop.

You're right, someone who plays the game casually should be able to slaughter people who have been playing for months trying to become 'DA BEST' with absolute ease.

First of all, you seem to think you can be high-level and suck. This is false, as you cannot become a high-level player without serious dedication (especially due to the grind it takes once you start to near the level cap). Second, high-levels generally only team up with people who know the best ways to take advantage of the game's mechanics for the best DPS rate so that dungeons/missions can be completed with optimal efficiency. Efficiency is *VITAL* at high levels, because if you can't do the best damage you will either not be able to beat the dungeon you have to rely on for reasonable EXP gain, or said dungeon will take absolutely forever when everyone else can do it in half an hour (which cuts your EXP gain considerably, preventing you from levelling further).

To be blunt, dedicated players SHOULD have an advantage over casual players, because forcing people to all be on the same level regardless of how much they play punishes people who put a lot of time and effort into getting better. Check the list of top WoW players; I can tell you now they didn't reach the top playing once a week.

No matter how skilled and how much knowledge of that game you have, nothing will save you when the level gap is too big.

Because there's no possible way to, you know, not play in PvP. Nor do games with PvP ever have level 'tiers' to prevent lv 80's from farming level 20's for stuff, and ones that don't certainly never have have high-levels gain so little from farming on low-levels that there's no point (What's that? Pretty much all MMOs these days have designated areas for PvP to prevent griefing? That can't be true, right?).

It is at this point you can tell how often I've had to deal with these exact same complaints.

There isn't too much thinking involved either, as you can easily copy a character build off some guide and the rest is just gear/levels/RNG.

And this is different from any other RPG in the universe... How?

[RainfallYoshi]

I hate you AlexX, you keep saying things right before I want to say them. <3

As for the argument that there's "no thinking involved", that's completely up to the player. You could go out and make your own builds instead of following the crowd you know. But I guess I can give you that point since most of the time the builds that most people go by *are* the effective ones. But like AlexX said, this can be applied to pretty much every other genre as well so the argument is a bit baseless.

Take a look at Ragnarok Online for example. Sure, each class has the general areas they're best in (You wouldn't make an Int-based swordman or a Str-based archer now would you? ) but it's still highly flexible in what you want to do with your character. For each class there's usually a good amount of different builds. Skill builds are also HIGHLY varied. If there's one thing RO got right, it's that there's not really any useless skills and that no class has one set build that's best (I'm lookin' at you Maple Story).

[Ghaleon]

This. So much.
If I'm going to lose to somebody, it should be because the other person was simply better, not because they've started playing 2 months before I have or because they got extremely lucky and got a good drop.

No matter how skilled and how much knowledge of that game you have, nothing will save you when the level gap is too big.
There isn't too much thinking involved either, as you can easily copy a character build off some guide and the rest is just gear/levels/RNG.

Those problems above have nothing to do with MMOs, and everything to do with RPGS. Expecting to beat a level 80 as a level 30 in an mmorpg is like expecting to beat Warmech in Final fantasy 1 at level 10. NOT GOING TO HAPPEN. If anything MMORPGs actually IMPROVES your chances as a low-level dude fighting higher level ones because there are cases where low level people can stomp a higher level one. The fact is though that MMORPGS just seem to feature you getting owned by higher level people more often than traditional RPGS because the nature of pvp. Which in my opinion is dumb too. Play on a PVE server or something.

As for build's and whatnot, I never look into other builds, I just look at them, and make em up myself, every time it's pretty much the cookie cutter build you find on the internet, because that's what some thought and experience leads you to. It's true how it's lame that most MMORPGs generally have a select few "flat out better" builds for every class, and that the player's choices are really quite no-brainers. But again, this is a problem with most RPGS in general, or any game featuring character customization at ALL really. The only difference with an MMO is that due to being a game where people communicate with each other regularly, you end up having these builds common knowledge relatively quicker.

That being said: I absolutely do NOT agree with this at all:

First of all, you seem to think you can be high-level and suck. This is false, as you cannot become a high-level player without serious dedication (especially due to the grind it takes once you start to near the level cap). Second, high-levels generally only team up with people who know the best ways to take advantage of the game's mechanics for the best DPS rate so that dungeons/missions can be completed with optimal efficiency. Efficiency is *VITAL* at high levels, because if you can't do the best damage you will either not be able to beat the dungeon you have to rely on for reasonable EXP gain, or said dungeon will take absolutely forever when everyone else can do it in half an hour (which cuts your EXP gain considerably, preventing you from levelling further).

Dude, I don't know about you, but the level of suck from level-capped people still amazes me to date. I kid you not, but here is one example.

One day, I was raiding Blackwing lair in WoW.. Back when it was the latest and greatest content, before AQ was out. Some dumbass warlock in my raid was asking "wtf are you guys talking about, I don't see ____ spell, or ____ spell" (bear in mind that this person has been raiding for almost a year already at the time, and has cleared MC numerous times). As it turns out, they were confused with warlock spells people were talking about because they didn't know there was a SCROLLBAR in their talent window. Yes, that person never knew there were any talents past the 20 point ones, but lo and behold, the magic scrollbar on the window opened a new realm of possible spells and talents to learn, AMAZING! That's just one example. I've also seen guild main tank warriors in BC not know about beserker stance, they weren't sure wtf I was talking about when I mentioned stance-dancing to break fear.

I mean even if you don't know WoW at all, the fact you've been level-capped for over a year and didn't notice the scrollbar in your talent tree is just ridiculous. But the kicker is I see that kinda level of jaw-dropping suckdom on a regular basis. People who have leveled to 80 MULTIPLE TIMES via alts, don't know not to stand in the @%#@ing fire. Everyone makes that mistake sometimes, they are spaced out or distracted or something. But some people just do it over and over again and again. Now you can say you choose not to play with those people, but that does NOT mean they aren't there, and the sad fact is they are the majority of the players.

This is why MMORPGS seem so damned easy compared to offline games. Because developers KNOW that they have to balance the majority of the game's content to allow super-noobs to actually be able to have a chance and enjoy it. But on the flip side, just because you don't need as much general gaming skills to "get by" in an MMO, does not mean that higher levels of gaming skills and knowledge are "wasted". I can tell how good a person is at pretty much any game genre when I play WoW with them.

As for Trance saying he likes games to be MMO so he can have his skills noticed. I almost feel the opposite. I mean, I feel like when I do good at an MMORPG (probably not applicable for other mmo genres though), anything I do gets dismissed because of the average-level of a large group or raid as a whole. No matter how good you are, you can be a gaming god. But you aren't going to be able to beat some raid dungeon without a group of decent players to go along with. Alas, I'm frequently amidst the pile of average Shmoes to your average onlooker because I just don't have the desire to be in a hard-core raiding guild that actually expects you to commit x-hours a day or whatever to do stuff with them like a bloody job. But I can totally see it's apparent for content that doesn't take much more than 5 players or whatever I suppose.

[AlexX Unlimited]

EDIT: Eh, lets just leave it at "the communities of MMOs are a mixed bag."

[Tinari]

My biggest thing here is that people are putting "fair" on this pedestal and acting as if it is the holy grail of gaming.  Then they compare an MMO that's an RPG to a SHMUP.  Compare apples to different kinds of apples at least, please.  Compare an MMO RPG to a single player RPG.  Tell me a level 1 in Neverwinter Nights can use a console to spawn the final boss and win via "skill" any more than a level 30 could beat a level 60 in WoW.  Tell me how playing Halo differs so substantially in single player mode to playing something like Counter Strike which is as online as you can get for an FPS while nearly being as popular.

I don't get why people seem to clamor all over "fair" as if without it a game cannot be fun.  Team Fortress 2 is one of the most fun multiplayer FPS games I have ever played and I can garuntee you that not all the classes are balanced and fair compared to some.  Without getting into specifics there are some classes that feel like you're an immobile target with lots of counter classes while others seem like they can perform in every area while having no true counter worth their salt.

If I wanted a game that was absolutely and completely fair I'd play Pong.  I hate that arguement.

[shadowbringer]

Tinari:
- single-player RPGs don't have other players/guilds to attack/defend yourself against. You usually don't try to measure your own skills against NPCs such as bosses, you do it against other players, because they're normally more challenging. (though there are exceptions, such as people being able to solo in FF6, Romancing Saga 3 or play with low level characters in these games)

- I haven't played Halo, but don't see anything wrong with CS, since one team doesn't have initial advantages over the other.

- as for my favoring of fair matches, do you feel accomplished if you get to realize that you defeated someone else because you had advantages (more damage, more resistance, faster attack speed, more movement speed, more MP, higher hit rate, evasion, critical success rate, magical critical success rate, improved skills, better gear that can't be used by lower-leveled characters..), rather than having played better than your opponent? Can you say that, by defeating someone that way, you're more skilled than your opponent?

- as it was once said on the IRC, "hyperboles work both ways". A game doesn't have to be perfectly balanced, but not aiming for balance (or meta-balance) hurts the game more. And if you consider the situation in the above paragraph (which doesn't necessarily mean that the game is entirely imbalanced, just a case of a large enough level/equip gap), like I said in earlier posts, winning or losing becomes somewhat pointless.