This thread started out as halloween then BDSM then gendertalk then states

[Tengukami]

Zettai Ryouiki has nothing to do with the type of socks or stockings and everything to do with the gap between it and skirt.  Only reason garters fail is because they break the gap :<.

That's exactly my point.  I couldn't have said it better.

I have an objection to when stockings are worn without garters.  See the above post.  They are trying, and thus failing, to bring forth zettai ryouiki.  That's my only objection. 

?

[helvetica]

zettai ryouiki means "heaven's gap" anyways IIRC

[dustyjo]

Oh UK.... The things I would do to you in bed... 

O rry ?

I actually meant bed in a more.... Figurative manner of speaking....

That's two. You are obligated to describe a bit of this situation to properly stimulate the imagination

How would you like to be my Thanksgiving Turkey basting in your own juices and receiving regular checkups that include probing with a rectal thermometer? 

That...could be fun actually.

Yes, it does~

[Dragoshi]

Oh UK.... The things I would do to you in bed... 

O rry ?

I actually meant bed in a more.... Figurative manner of speaking....

That's two. You are obligated to describe a bit of this situation to properly stimulate the imagination

How would you like to be my Thanksgiving Turkey basting in your own juices and receiving regular checkups that include probing with a rectal thermometer? 

That...could be fun actually.

Yes, it does~

It sounds rather... interesting, to say the least. :x

[Jana]

...I don't know how to react to the latest sting of posts.

But I have a question for those of you that are comfortable in your gender identity, despite it being different from your biological gender. I know TSO has said that she knew from very early on, but I've only felt like this relatively recently (the end of high school was the first time I starting thinking about it seriously). I'm wondering if it's just some delusion brought onto myself by stress, loneliness, feelings of inadequacy, etc. and not a true desire to change genders. I said before that my desires felt perverted and selfish, and they still do kind of feel that way to me.

Edit: If it's stupid of me to try and reason through this with normal thinking, I apologize in advance.

[UncertainJakutten]

...I don't know how to react to the latest sting of posts.

But I have a question for those of you that are comfortable in your gender identity, despite it being different from your biological gender. I know TSO has said that she knew from very early on, but I've only felt like this relatively recently (the end of high school was the first time I starting thinking about it seriously). I'm wondering if it's just some delusion brought onto myself by stress, loneliness, feelings of inadequacy, etc. and not a true desire to change genders. I said before that my desires felt perverted and selfish, and they still do kind of feel that way to me.

Edit: If it's stupid of me to try and reason through this with normal thinking, I apologize in advance.

Have you seen a psychologist about it? I study it a bit, but I obviously don't know everything.

[Jana]

I'm a psych major, so I should be more comfortable with seeing a specialist... I dunno about it, though. I can try and see where the social workers are on campus, at least.

[dustyjo]

I don't feel very feminine all the time, it depends what mood I'm in.

[Nobu]

...I don't know how to react to the latest sting of posts.

But I have a question for those of you that are comfortable in your gender identity, despite it being different from your biological gender. I know TSO has said that she knew from very early on, but I've only felt like this relatively recently (the end of high school was the first time I starting thinking about it seriously). I'm wondering if it's just some delusion brought onto myself by stress, loneliness, feelings of inadequacy, etc. and not a true desire to change genders. I said before that my desires felt perverted and selfish, and they still do kind of feel that way to me.

Edit: If it's stupid of me to try and reason through this with normal thinking, I apologize in advance.

These are my thoughts, and feel free to disagree, but I am of the mind that physical sex identity and gender identity are related but ultimately seperate. You can be considered very 'feminine' by society but be completely comfortable with your male body. And you might be considered masculine in your actions and behaviors and still desire a female body.

I'm not entirely uncomfortable being in a male body, but I would have very much preferred a female one. So I wouldn't consider myself a true MtF. And my personality and behavior has both 'masculine' and 'feminine' traits, so my gender is fluid.

But the key is, that my preference of female to male body are independent of society's ideas of gender. My gender is completely dependent on what society thinks, it's all just labels. If I go to a different society, my personality is not going to change, but my 'gender identity' might, just because they would have a word to better describe me.


So you ultimately have to ask yourself, do you feel dissonance being in your male body and feel like you should have been female? Or do you just feel like your personality and definition of yourself does not live up to the idea of being 'male', but you don't mind your body? Or both?

[Kilgamayan]

I have a couple of curiosities myself. One should be quick and easy, and one may be harder.

What third-person pronoun do you prefer when people are referencing you? If it varies depending on your mood, can you give me/us one that applies universally regardless of what mood you're in so I/we may aim not to offend?

How do you define male and female? Feeling as though you switch back and forth suggests you have solid standards for each.

[Tengukami]

...I don't know how to react to the latest sting of posts.

But I have a question for those of you that are comfortable in your gender identity, despite it being different from your biological gender. I know TSO has said that she knew from very early on, but I've only felt like this relatively recently (the end of high school was the first time I starting thinking about it seriously). I'm wondering if it's just some delusion brought onto myself by stress, loneliness, feelings of inadequacy, etc. and not a true desire to change genders. I said before that my desires felt perverted and selfish, and they still do kind of feel that way to me.

Edit: If it's stupid of me to try and reason through this with normal thinking, I apologize in advance.

You'd be better off talking to a professional about this rather than us. Gender identity, if you sincerely feel you're having real issues with it, is something that needs to be addressed by people trained in the field.

But most important of all, do be happy with who you are, first and foremost, and don't think there's something "wrong" with you just because you psychological and physical genders might not be the same thing.

[Jana]

I guess that the easiest way to describe it not that I'm not at home in my body... It feels weird, even gross at times. I also carry myself differently from men in this society would, but it's just how I'm comfortable. People say the way I carry myself, act, and sound are very feminine, but I only saw it as teasing until around high school.

At the same time, I worry that if I were to switch, I'd get uncomfortable in that body too. Being comfortable as a male for enough time, as well as feeling like I'm over-idolizing the female body, I guess. And it's that idolization of the female body that led me to feel like I was just being a selfish perv.

I'd type more to clarify, but my roommates just got back, and I'm not really comfortable sharing this sort of information...

Cut by Ammy: Yeah, I get that I'll need to see a professional about it, but I'm a bit scared, to be honest. And with a few MotK members who are comfortable with sharing their experiences in the subject area, I'm happy talking about it here just until I feel a bit more ready.

And thanks for that. It's a bit difficult, but I'll try.

[helvetica]

Yes my gender identity is separate from my physical identity.  I have mannerisms and desires and preferences and things that are both masculine and feminine.  I am compassionate, caring, empathetic, and emotional, traditionally feminine characteristics.  But I am also very competitive, self-assertive, and prefer to lead rather than follow, more masculine archetypes.

But I identify female because in the end I want to be viewed as a girl in society.

Gender identity does not beget physical identity.  For example Ruro has a more masculine personality but she still identifies as female.  Dusty may be a guy but he acts girly.  Gender is just a fancy way of saying personality as compared to societal views on typical male and female traits.  Only reason gender really matters is because society for the most part is far less accepting of a guy who may act feminine compared to a girl who acts macho.  Basically sexual identity is what parts you have and gender identity is what you want society to treat you as.

That's why there is a distinction between transgendered and transsexual.  You may be completely comfortable with your body but have a personality and desire to be treated as the opposite gender in society.

Now as for my physical identity I also identify as female because I do have serious issues with my physical form, beyond just a simple dislike of my appearance.  I literally cannot derive pleasure from my male equipment, but I'm not asexual as I do have a desire for sex.  Just not as a guy.

[helvetica]

Jan: You do need professional help to sort that out.  Nothing's wrong persay with wishing to be a girl because they're hot and you derive sexual fantasies from it, but that's more transvestism/crossdressing than a gender disorder.

They're two similar yet very different issues.

[Jana]

I'll write a more in-depth replay later, but thanks, TSO. If it's something different, I'll try looking around for more info on that instead when I get a chance.

[helvetica]

Well it depends.  You described feelings that are typically linked to either condition.  Honestly I think you're more a transvestite than tg/ts.  Just having a girly personality doesn't make you tg/ts, but what makes you tv is you mention interest in girly things in context of sexual arousal or pleasure.

Here's how I put it.  Do you want to be a girl, or do you need to be one?  Want is TV, and need is TG/TS.  You should talk to Iori_E, a big crossplayer and touhou addict.  You kind of mirror his personality and desires.  He crossdresses and stuff all the time but still considers himself squarely male.  It's a pleasure thing to him, rather than a need or a feeling of being incomplete or somehow not right.  He just enjoys wearing girl clothing and acting like one for play.

[Nobu]

I have a couple of curiosities myself. One should be quick and easy, and one may be harder.

What third-person pronoun do you prefer when people are referencing you? If it varies depending on your mood, can you give me/us one that applies universally regardless of what mood you're in so I/we may aim not to offend?

How do you define male and female? Feeling as though you switch back and forth suggests you have solid standards for each.

I don't prefer either really so don't worry about offending me, but i'm just used to being referred to as a he.  I suppose if I was trying to pass as a girl, or at least was in the role of a female, i'd rather be referred to as she. Refer to me however you feel is natural to you. ^_^

Mmm, my concepts of male and female are a bit difficult to put into words. I feel like I'm fluid and can 'switch', because I can be comfortable and act natural in a setting where my feminine characteristics are diminished and masculine side is more pronounced (which is how I am in certain groups). I can fit in in a lot of places as a result. But the less pressure there is to go one way or the other, the more androgynous I am.

Over here, I don't feel any pressure to conform to an idea of masculinity or femininity, so I guess this is me at my more natural state. :3 What do you see me as in your mind's eye?

[Kilgamayan]

I see you as Suwako because that was your avatar before you changed it to Byakumouse. >_>

I have long since given up trying to put faces to posts because I have seen exactly one internet person in my life that even remotely resembled my arbitrary mental image of them. It's just easier to imagine the avatar is the person until I see the real them (and even then in some cases it's still easier to go with the avatar).

[Nobu]

Just having a girly personality doesn't make you tg/ts, but what makes you tv is you mention interest in girly things in context of sexual arousal or pleasure.

I'm somewhat of a transgender transexual transvestite then. I do find the idea of being the little girl as sexually arousing, but also fitting.

I see you as Suwako because that was your avatar before you changed it to Byakumouse. >_>

I have long since given up trying to put faces to posts because I have seen exactly one internet person in my life that even remotely resembled my arbitrary mental image of them. It's just easier to imagine the avatar is the person until I see the real them (and even then in some cases it's still easier to go with the avatar).

I had to make the ava because that was totally my hairstyle(it's grown out a little bit since then.). But yeah, even after seeing pictures of you, I still can't help but picture you as some reverse noise Shikieiki/Aya hybrid.

[Matsuri]

After reading all of this, I don't really know what to think of myself! I do consider myself-- at least mentally/emotionally/personality-wise-- as much more feminine than masculine. However, I'm fine as a male and I'd never change myself as far as physical sex goes. As for crossdressing, I don't think I could even do that for fun! I've got my own slew of image issues as a male and I'd probably have a mental breakdown if I dressed as a girl.

Also, I'm attracted to females and I'm not attracted to males at all in a physical sense-- which I think also leads to more of my image issues because since I am a male and do not see males in general as attractive, I do not consider myself as such, either.

So overall, I just identify myself as a straight male with girly tendencies and mannerisms. Does that seem accurate, or am I more confused than I thought?

[Nobu]

Sounds fine to me, Matsuri. You sound like you know exactly what you are, the labels are superfluous.

[FinnKaenbyou]

Alright, finally biting the bullet and posting here. >_>

Firstly, on BDSM. I'm of the opinion that if both members of the session enjoy the experience then it's perfectly fine. Personally I'm probably a dom, but I can't say I have any experience on the subject.

In terms of gender, I'm strange. I'm a guy, and I don't feel out of place being a guy, but I've never really been very interested in sex with either gender. I have a fetish, yes, and I'm into girls getting involved in said fetish, but sex itself doesn't interest me.

Also...in roleplay, I have no complaints in playing the role of a girl, which makes me a little uncertain. Maybe I just get more interested in the scenario than the characters, and so I don't feel too bad about acting outside of my gender, if that makes any sense. It's not like I have any desires to be a girl or anything.

(On a side note - Nobu, feel like showing up on IRC? Last night's talk was interesting, I learned a lot from it.)

[dustyjo]

I don't really WANT to be a girl (much), I just like acting like one sometimes.

Spoiler:

And a cat.

[FinnKaenbyou]

Spoiler:

And a cat.

I'll admit I'm pretty guilty of this too,

Spoiler:

nyaa~.

[Moerin]

Gah, after reading this thread I kinda want to confess a bit too, but it's getting late and I have work tomorrow... Sigh.  I guess I'll go into more depth tomorrow if I remember, but here goes...

Sometimes I've wondered if I'd have been happier if I was born a girl.  I just... Don't feel right like I am.  It's like I was supposed to be someone else, but something got screwed up and I ended up the way I am.

I pretty much idolise the female body, and not necessarily in a sexual way, either.  It's like... An ideal for me.  I'm guessing that this is probably what helped cause my fascination with androgyny, and later traps and reverse-traps.  And then there's the, uh, penis thing.  To tell the truth, I, um, kinda find them... Somewhat disgusting at times.  It's like it really shouldn't be there, like that dangling piece of flesh obstructs the body from obtaining the perfect sleek, feminine shape it should rightfully have.

Um... I hope that made sense... Like I said, if I remember, I'll go more in-depth about it tomorrow...

[Nobu]

Spoiler:

And a cat.

I'll admit I'm pretty guilty of this too,

Spoiler:

nyaa~.

Me too, nyaa~! :3 Makes me feel cute and playful. Though it's often associated with otaku/annoying people, and sometimes people acting overly otaku-ey/annoying make me want to punch something, I won't lie. @_@;

I've had a couple people hold up an elevator at an anime con because the one girl felt the need to lead her catboy-on-a-leash on hands and knees. That was aggravating. x.x


@Theorist: However way you look at it, that looks more like transsexualism than anything else. I feel ya, sis.


* Nobu hugs Theorist

[UncertainJakutten]

Spoiler:

And a cat.

I'll admit I'm pretty guilty of this too,

Spoiler:

nyaa~.

Me too, nyaa~! :3 Makes me feel cute and playful. Though it's often associated with otaku/annoying people, and sometimes people acting overly otaku-ey/annoying make me want to punch something, I won't lie. @_@;

I've had a couple people hold up an elevator at an anime con because the one girl felt the need to lead her catboy-on-a-leash on hands and knees. That was aggravating. x.x

Wow...that's like...gdlk. While I can imagine it was aggravating, you gotta admit she has him well trained.

[FinnKaenbyou]

I've had a couple people hold up an elevator at an anime con because the one girl felt the need to lead her catboy-on-a-leash on hands and knees. That was aggravating. x.x

Catboy really doesn't work for me. That's sort of the embarrassing thing - I sort of enjoy acting out scenes as a catgirl. :/
A good part of it is probably acting out fantasies and all, but considering I've got a bit of a thing for catgirls anyway...yeah. >_>

(On a side note - Nobu, feel like showing up on IRC? Last night's talk was interesting, I learned a lot from it.)

[Nobu]

Spoiler:

And a cat.

I'll admit I'm pretty guilty of this too,

Spoiler:

nyaa~.

Me too, nyaa~! :3 Makes me feel cute and playful. Though it's often associated with otaku/annoying people, and sometimes people acting overly otaku-ey/annoying make me want to punch something, I won't lie. @_@;

I've had a couple people hold up an elevator at an anime con because the one girl felt the need to lead her catboy-on-a-leash on hands and knees. That was aggravating. x.x

Wow...that's like...gdlk. While I can imagine it was aggravating, you gotta admit she has him well trained.

Well, I didn't feel like they were taking the idea of Dom/Sub seriously, more like playing around. Which is also aggravating.

[UncertainJakutten]

Well, I didn't feel like they were taking the idea of Dom/Sub seriously, more like playing around. Which is also aggravating.

Oh...good point. It'd be bad if it were a mockery...I wouldn't mind being led on a leash but...I'd be serious'd about it.