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Touhou Project 17 「東方鬼形獣 ～ Wily Beast and Weakest Creature.」
Suspicious person:
Eh, gotta say, there's a lot I disagree with in Cyber's take, especially on the UFO gameplay comparison, in part for reasons I've brought much, much earlier
Anyway, when it comes to the story, while I get the thing with the Beast World, a distant realm which essentially should have no interaction with Gensokyo, being relevant, it should be noted that it's Hell's neighbour of sorts ... and Hell has a pretty substantial place in Touhou, if the characters, the death-related lore, and the possibility for stuff that happens there to spill into Gensokyo (SA's plot, UFO's cast, some stuff from WaHH) are considered. AND, CURRENTLY, Hell is going through some kind of political trouble : if current Hell is a free-for-all and might makes right there (AFiEU), there's shouldn't be a reason why complete foreigners with some ambition and the strenghth to back it up can't partake in whatever is going on there. Anyway, my point here is that it's quite possible that the introduction of the Beast World, its denizens and even the political situation there, aside from being ZUN's usual curveball, may also be a be a setup of sorts for another future work that will not only properly tackle whatever is going on in Hell, but also put a conclusion (?) to it.
I mean, say LoLK and its Dream World for example : the Dream World itself, as a PLACE, hasn't had any serious interaction with Gensokyo and its residents ... but it got to serve, much much later, a more substantial role in TH 15.5 and 16.5. The beast World might seem to lack peculiar quirks for now, but it is quite possible that it (or its residents) could play some kind of role in a future Hell-involving work. Like, just as the Dream World and Doremy got to have their limelight in TH 15.5 and 16.5, the Beast World and its denizens may play some kind of role towards Hell (a place with a certain relevance in Touhou) in a subsequent work. Future is incertain, so I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss the Beast World as a bad move regarding Touhou's worldbuilding as a whole ... In consideration of the expansive nature of this series' worldbuilding.
also
--- Quote from: CyberAngel on September 09, 2019, 09:35:53 AM ---(...) Worst of all, the endings don't even add anything to the story anymore. They talk about surrounding circumstances and that's it. Not a single hint of the main conflict budging either way. Not a single stroke added to the bigger worldbuilding picture (...)
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Eagle Reimu's ending kinda disagrees with this ... Spoiler: aside from that, Keiki popping up in Gensokyo plus Boss Kurokoma intending to visit Gensokyo contribute to make it evident that the interactions with the Beast World are VERY possible. Consistent with the thing where all the previously encountered characters in the series can pop up in Gensokyo for whatever reason, like, say, in GoU's danmaku firework festival ...
And I also don't see the difference between the thing with Boss Kicchou and lady Sagume, considering the fact that the turns of events that lead the heroines to the Moon were literally due to ... Sagume using her power.
But anyway
--- Quote from: CyberAngel on September 09, 2019, 09:35:53 AM ----it is complete and utter trash.
-It's generically boring at best and actively gets in the way of playing the game with any degree of enjoyment at its worst.
-The gameplay itself is a huge mixed bag as well.
-(...) just stick to UFO, you're not missing much. Unless you actually want to keep getting such bland uninspired experiences in future games, of course.
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I have no problem with people criticizing and even hating on the new game, but I completely disagree when you conflate the obvious [personnal dislike] with [matter-of-fact suckiness] ... especially when the general reception of the various stuff you claim to be factually sucky is quite positive ...
Nusp:
--- Quote from: Suspicious person on September 09, 2019, 07:22:22 PM ---I have no problem with people criticizing and even hating on the new game, but I completely disagree when you conflate the obvious [personnal dislike] with [matter-of-fact suckiness] ... especially when the general reception of the various stuff you claim to be factually sucky is quite positive ...
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I think it can be taken for granted that it was all an opinion, not a declaration of fact, regardless of how it's written. I know that it can be hard to read someone's intent on the internet but I also find silly the notion that you'd need to clarify "this is just my opinion" on everything you write. It seems like arguing over semantics.
CyberAngel:
--- Quote from: Suspicious person on September 09, 2019, 07:22:22 PM ---I have no problem with people criticizing and even hating on the new game, but I completely disagree when you conflate the obvious [personnal dislike] with [matter-of-fact suckiness] ... especially when the general reception of the various stuff you claim to be factually sucky is quite positive ...
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I apologize if my post comes across that way, but yes, that's all just my opinion. I'm not claiming that those who think otherwise are wrong or anything. Those are the problems I personally have with this game but I'd be interested to see detailed arguments that would support otherwise. They won't change my opinion but I'd love to understand why other people would think differently.
That said, I do realize there might be a possibility for this to be a setup for something in the future, but it all feels way too sketchy for that. Hell's events still remain mostly in the background (I don't think it will be explored even in the upcoming fairy manga chapter), Animal Realm has been skimmed over in a way that reminds me oh how Makai was handled, and cowboy girl might as well become another Flandre. The main characters were used in the conflict even though they have no stakes in it and were mostly left in the dark even at the end. In previous games you could tell that something else was coming but I'm not getting such vibes here.
TresserT:
Yeah, I agree that this game didn't flesh out its world or its connection to Gensokyo whatsoever. However, the events that happened were "important" enough to get a full game devoted to them. DDC had its events fleshed out in the manga and a later game, LoLK had three entire games devoted to its worldbuilding (plus VD and AoCF fleshing out the dream world and its workings), and Okina and her role has been elaborated upon prettt heavilt in the manga.
To me this game does feel like it's barely grazing the surface, but I 100% expect things to get fleshed out in the manga or later games.
MrNoobomnenie:
As I've already said, the statment "There's no good music in WBaWC" is rediculous. "Beast Metropolis" is beautiful and "Idolatrize World" is very powerful. Actually, a lot of Touhou themes need to be relestened several times before you start understanding how good they are.
Gameplay... I personally don't care about it that much - I'm a lore-nerd.
And now the story. It's very strange to hear the statements like "The game gives nothing to a Touhou world". At first, it's expands the universe lore, which is already good. At second, the game is very new - it's too early to say, that it's plot is "pointless". For an example SWR was a very pointless game before AoCF and it's Tenshi's comeback in terms of story. What does this game tell us? That Heaven and celestials exist? We've already knew that from Memento. Did Iku and Tenshi did at least something between SWR and AoCF (almost 10 years!)? No, they did nothing! Actually, you can still delete Iku from the Touhou universe and absolutely nothing will change with exception of only SWR.
If you prefer shmups, what about SA? The only not pointless character is Koishi, and she has nothing to do with the plot. You can literally replace the entire game with just one manga chapter, where Kanako awakes the underground geysers and Koishi appears. Satori can easily be just a backstory character like Youki Konpaku. All other SA characters can just not exist entirely - nothing will change. Palace of the Earth Spirits is not even close to something like SDM, Hakugyokurou, Eientei, Moriya Shrine, Myoren Temple and Divine Spirit Mausoleum. Actually, the entire place of the Former Hell has so little influence to the Touhou universe, that it could just be listed in Memento or Symposium instead of appearing in the game. And SA came out 11 years ago! But no one is complaining about it's complete irrelevance to the story (for some reason). So the similar complains about the game that came out a month ago have no sense what so ever.