Is playing in 16:9 instead of 4:3 considered cheating?

~Hakurei Shrine~ > Help Me, Eirin!

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Agent of the BSoD:

--- Quote from: Lunatic_Reimu on May 09, 2019, 05:25:58 PM ---1. Got it. I know it may sound silly, but just confirming to be sure, it doesn't make a difference that my desktop's resolution is set to 1360x768 right? (i.e. I don't need to set a 4:3 resolution for my desktop also right?)

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Doesn't matter. If you're switching aspect ratios for the games and for everything else (desktop or whatever), it's fine.

--- Quote from: Lunatic_Reimu on May 09, 2019, 05:25:58 PM ---4. After doing some more thinking and research I'm still not sure on the PC-98 being in 16:9. Let me explain my thoughts:
A.) As you said that doubling 8:5 brings it to 16:10, doubling 4:3 gives you 8:6. If you halve 8:5 it becomes 4:2.5 which is quite close to 4:3 too. (I'm not sure how these things work, don't think I'm trying to be a smart ass, just sharing my thoughts and wanting to learn more).
B.) Did some scrounging around on Youtube and literally all the vids I found for PC-98 are in 4:3 by top players like Jaimers, Zigzag Wolf, even HRtP by another 2 youtubers.
C.) There's some contradicting information on the forums, while you're suggesting 16:9, in the thread how to set up Neko Project II, user Shockdude is stating that the PC-98 games were meant to be played in 4:3 aspect ratio, here's the thread for your reference, it's the final 4 posts at the bottom of the thread: https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,11117.30.html
D.) The common resolutions wiki list I linked which is stating that resolution 640 x 400 has a Storage Aspect Ratio of 8:5 and should have a Display Aspect Ratio of 4:3.

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I was actually chatting with a friend last night about exactly this. It's sorta unclear what the target aspect ratio should be. It seems people really into PC-98 stuff say it should be 4:3. I believe this argument stems from the fact that LCD panels were in their infancy and not that great, and CRTs were the thing you used and by a huge margin, way more popular. CRTs typically stretch the image to fill the screen, which is most commonly 4:3. However, the PC-98 laptops used an LCD screen, which meant that they kept the source ratio that the system was giving it, 640x400, and displayed it pixel perfect, leading it to be in 16:10 instead of 4:3. Right now, I'm torn between which is correct. 4:3 would definitely seem more authentic, but 16:10 is pixel perfect. The bullets in the games definitely look like they should be played in 16:10 to me. I'd have to dig further into this. Keep in mind that pixel aspect ratio is not always the right aspect ratio. For example, DOS games for IBM PC compatibles typically ran in a resolution of 320x200. Sound familiar? Multiply that by 2, you get 640x400, so 16:10 right? Wrong. Those games were meant to be played 4:3 as that's what CRTs did to them, and is what graphics designers often targeted. So that's why I'm torn right now. I should try playing them in 4:3 and see what they look like. This could also be preference on a user by user basis.

--- Quote from: Lunatic_Reimu on May 09, 2019, 05:25:58 PM ---I use T98 Next in case it makes a difference. (thanks for the guide for setting that up by the way, was mega helpful xD)

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No problem. That guide is so old though, and I've mentioned a couple times on here that I'm going to remake it since it's so cluttered, but I never get around to it. :V

Lunatic_Reimu:

--- Quote from: Agent of the BSoD on May 09, 2019, 09:00:29 PM ---Doesn't matter. If you're switching aspect ratios for the games and for everything else (desktop or whatever), it's fine.

I was actually chatting with a friend last night about exactly this. It's sorta unclear what the target aspect ratio should be. It seems people really into PC-98 stuff say it should be 4:3. I believe this argument stems from the fact that LCD panels were in their infancy and not that great, and CRTs were the thing you used and by a huge margin, way more popular. CRTs typically stretch the image to fill the screen, which is most commonly 4:3. However, the PC-98 laptops used an LCD screen, which meant that they kept the source ratio that the system was giving it, 640x400, and displayed it pixel perfect, leading it to be in 16:10 instead of 4:3. Right now, I'm torn between which is correct. 4:3 would definitely seem more authentic, but 16:10 is pixel perfect. The bullets in the games definitely look like they should be played in 16:10 to me. I'd have to dig further into this. Keep in mind that pixel aspect ratio is not always the right aspect ratio. For example, DOS games for IBM PC compatibles typically ran in a resolution of 320x200. Sound familiar? Multiply that by 2, you get 640x400, so 16:10 right? Wrong. Those games were meant to be played 4:3 as that's what CRTs did to them, and is what graphics designers often targeted. So that's why I'm torn right now. I should try playing them in 4:3 and see what they look like. This could also be preference on a user by user basis.

No problem. That guide is so old though, and I've mentioned a couple times on here that I'm going to remake it since it's so cluttered, but I never get around to it. :V

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Yeah switching to 4:3 for the games and back to 16:9 for the desktop. Thankfully there's a button on my remote which does this with two presses, so I don't have to stay navigating into my TV's Picture Options all the time to switch around xD

Hmm, that's interesting, you seem to have a lot of knowledge about the PC-98 hardware and the like, thanks for the info, interesting read :) I dunno but just a suggestion, how about comparing a bullet type that is common in both the PC-98 games and the Windows games and seeing which aspect ratio it fits closest too? i.e. taking a screenshot of the bullet in 16:9 and 4:3 and comparing it to the equivalent bullet in Touhou 6 in 4:3. A bullet type that's coming to mind is the circular green bullets in Touhou 4 Stage 2, compared to the circular red bullets in Touhou 6 Stage 3. They look like the same bullet sprite, just a different colour. Even the little white dot bullets would work I guess, like the ones at the beginning of Touhou 5 Stage 1 and Touhou 6 Stage 1 on Lunatic, but these are smaller so it might be more difficult to see differences between aspect ratios on them. What do you think?

Haha cracked me up with the :V smiley, I know what it's like putting stuff off lol, then months/years would have passed and it's still not done haha. The guide's good how it is dood, was easy to follow point by point, and got everything working first attempt and hassle-free :)

Agent of the BSoD:
Don't think I'd need to do a comparison between PC-98 and Windows. These screenshots speak for themselves. First is 16:10, second is 4:3.
Here's the teleport things in TH01.

Here's the green bullets from TH04 stage 2.

Lastly, a screenshot of TH03, which has a couple round things going on in it.

To my eyes, I'm concluding that 16:10 is the intended look. I can't justify 4:3 being correct. It looks so wrong.

Lunatic_Reimu:

--- Quote from: Agent of the BSoD on May 09, 2019, 11:02:16 PM ---Don't think I'd need to do a comparison between PC-98 and Windows. These screenshots speak for themselves. First is 16:10, second is 4:3.
Here's the teleport things in TH01.

Here's the green bullets from TH04 stage 2.

Lastly, a screenshot of TH03, which has a couple round things going on in it.

To my eyes, I'm concluding that 16:10 is the intended look. I can't justify 4:3 being correct. It looks so wrong.

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Thanks for taking the time to do these comparisons. I could clearly see the difference and how 16:10 is indeed more accurate from your images, with 4:3 looking far too squished. Strangely enough though, I'm getting different results.

TH03 in 4:3:

TH03 in 16:9:

I cropped Reimu's boss attack which is meant to be a circle, and rotated it 90 degrees, since it's a circle, it should be equal on both sides even when rotated, and this is what I got:

Notice how it looks more accurate in 4:3 for me? And 16:9 is far too stretched?

So I did some more comparisons, might be interesting for you to see:

TH04 in 4:3:

TH04 in 16:9:

Comparison between one of the bullets from the above TH04 screens:

And finally, I used the HRtP teleporters like you did, I got very different results than you did though:
HRtP in 4:3:

HRtP in 16:9:

And finally, the comparison between the teleporters, notice how mine line up nicely in 4:3 but are too stretched in 16:9:

I'm thinking of something, from your TH03 screens, is that how they show up for you, or you cropped the screenshot before uploading it? I'm asking cause I noticed you don't have any black bars at the bottom and the top, which are present in my screenshots. The INFO button on my TV's remote says resolution is 640x480 when I'm using T98-Next, so maybe these are the missing 80 pixels (40 from the top, 40 from the bottom), so my TV is already displaying the image in 640x400 due to these black borders?

On a sidenote, we talked about Touhou and PC98 games, what about the Seihou games? Those go in 4:3 as well correct?

Hope you found some of my findings interesting. Quite strange that we're getting such different results.

Agent of the BSoD:
That's because you've got borders added not only to the left and right sides of the screen, but also to the top and bottom, which is why 4:3 looks correct. It's still rendering in 16:10 but it's being letterboxed to fit in a 4:3 space. I personally use Neko Project 21 fmgen as I find that to be the most solid emulator of the lot (another reason to update that guide as it was written before NP was compatible with the PC-98 hardware, only working with PC-88). With NP21, under screen -> screen option -> fullscreen, I have the two checkboxes ticked and zoom set to adjust aspect. When I fullscreen the game, it fills it to my screen but maintains the 16:10 aspect ratio, giving me black bars on the left and right, and none at the top and bottom. It's an uneven scale, so if the uneven pixels bother you, you can always check screen -> stretch filter (only applies when being stretched). It will produce a blurring effect but the pixels will be even.

As for Seihou, I've only ever touched the first one, Shuusou Gyoku, and it's also 4:3. I'm assuming the others are the same way.

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