INVASION! (Game Over, Nobody Wins)

[Affinity]

@Kiro:

I disagree with your twist on events. 

Thus, I felt there was a chance Serp was a Townie who tunneled in on a correct case and Suwako was Scum. #595 is where I changed my votes. I was wrong in my analysis.

There was no change in your vote in 595.  Also, how could you be wrong in your analysis when your points about Serp in D4 about him not 'scumhunting' properly appeared in D3 as "Serp is looking more and more town"?  Flips don't change the analysis he made. 

The fact that you also implicated him for, uh, 'pushing the Suwako wagon', which you have also done, also seems very fishy, especially since you agreed that he was putting all the good points on D3.  Thus that turnaround is scummy because some facets of your previous analysis had absolutely nothing to do with the flips.  This is not present with the others because none of them said that Serp's analysis was good or becoming more town.

I'll give up on the Anthony thing and agree with you.  It's kind of WIFOM reasoning after all.

---

Kittern4u did not read properly.  While I agree that I did not talk about UK, you did not talk much about, say UK either actually before today.  Neither did Sodium on Kiro, so this is not a good enough point by itself.  The point about VgT was more on how he would ever find Anthony scummy, not so much about his tone, though I have to accept I judged wrongly.  The fact that there are not any other points, and that she clears Rou as a potential lynch today solely because 'she can't find a scumpair' is bad in any case.  Only find scumbuddies after someone flips scum.

---

UK's response towards Kiro is bad, since she doesn't find Kiro scummy for any reasons which happened before today.  Furthermore, she doesn't really have a coherent case today and seems more focused on defense than anything else.  Reread is highly anticipated.

[Kitten4u]

Maybe it's because it's 1 AM and I wasn't able to type properly, but that's not what I was saying at all Affinity. 

While I agree that I did not talk about UK, you did not talk much about, say UK either actually before today.  Neither did Sodium on Kiro, so this is not a good enough point by itself.

Yes, I agree by itself it's not bad at all.  However, UK said that she needed to reread you SEVERAL times and NEVER did (or at least never put up the PBPA like she did with everyone else she reread).  Never.  Then when you attacked Umu you did not attack UK when she was attacking Rou for virtually the same reasons.  She was also the only person you did not have an opinion on D3.  It's not just that you two didn't talk about each other much; from my point of view it looks like both of you avoid saying anything about each other.

The point about VgT was more on how he would ever find Anthony scummy, not so much about his tone, though I have to accept I judged wrongly.

Which has nothing to do with my point at all.  You claimed you talked about VgT D1.  You did not.  That post was not a stance on VgT, it was a question and you don't mention him elsewhere.  I find the fact that you tried to use that post to act like you mentioned VgT bad.

and that she clears Rou as a potential lynch today solely because 'she can't find a scumpair' is bad in any case.  Only find scumbuddies after someone flips scum.

Why?  We're in LYLO.  Even if we lynch properly today we'll be in LYLO tomorrow.  With so few people, the way I see it if I can't find someone to connect another person to it means that person is much less likely to be scum than someone I can connect someone to.

[Affinity]

Then when you attacked Umu you did not attack UK when she was attacking Rou for virtually the same reasons.  She was also the only person you did not have an opinion on D3.  It's not just that you two didn't talk about each other much; from my point of view it looks like both of you avoid saying anything about each other.

Oh, I'm sorry for the misinterpretation.  u-mu's voting post then was along the lines of, say, 'ending random vote session is scummy', and selective thingies such as Rou not taking Anthony's defense as scummy, which was far worse than UK's accusations of Rou straw-manning him and Rou sticking fingers into pies without following up.  UK's reasons in my opinion were far better, thus I didn't focus on her at all.  As for UK's part of the problem, I can't say anything since I ain't her.

Which has nothing to do with my point at all.  You claimed you talked about VgT D1.  You did not.  That post was not a stance on VgT, it was a question and you don't mention him elsewhere.  I find the fact that you tried to use that post to act like you mentioned VgT bad.

It does.  I questioned VgT, and that in itself is talking about him, and it was implicitly a stance that I found his scumhunting ways weird and loopholish; if not I would not be questioning him.  I am not saying that I am cleared totally on this issue at all, but I was simply asking the question.

Why?  We're in LYLO.  Even if we lynch properly today we'll be in LYLO tomorrow.  With so few people, the way I see it if I can't find someone to connect another person to it means that person is much less likely to be scum than someone I can connect someone to.

If town lynches UK today, and she flips scum, then yes, it's perfectly fine for you to find those who did not talk about UK much scummy, for example, me.  But the idea is that there is no guarantee that she is scum yet, thus there has to be an assumption that there is such for it to be a valid point against me.  I'm sure others would disagree with me, but I am more for finding associations between the dead and the alive instead of the alive and alive unless a clearcut chainsaw occurs between the two.  Makes everything simpler.

[FinnKaenbyou]

This game is seriously starting to give me a headache.

I'll quickly note that UK STILL hasn't done that Affinity reread which she promised a while back.

But the idea is that there is no guarantee that she is scum yet, thus there has to be an assumption that there is such for it to be a valid point against me.  I'm sure others would disagree with me, but I am more for finding associations between the dead and the alive instead of the alive and alive unless a clearcut chainsaw occurs between the two.  Makes everything simpler.

When two players who have been iffy for most of the game conveniently don't talk about each other, that's suspicious. Besides, it's not like we have a lynch to spare to test this theory. :/

Sorry, just woke up and about to go to a friend's house. More tonight, hopefully.

[UncertainJakutten]

Stating you don't like the Suwako wagon doesn't mean you're trying to dissuade it. You never state or reintroduce evidence urging those who were voting Suwako to get off and vote Rou who happened to be on that Suwako wagon. Read through #599, #602 and #605. All commentating, no evidence.

nn~...the witch side resigns this point.

I could have been more effective, yes. However, I was not thinking in that manner at the time. Considering the fact that I usually don't end up defending town though, however, I don't think this is necessarily a strong point against me.

If your scumhunting is ineffectual, it's neutral at best and scummy at worst if one perceives the target you are going for to be likely Town. From a Town point of view, your voice or case is not reaching anybody. But from a Scum's point of view, you can be building a stance on your target, yet let him slide by while other mislynch targets are propped up far more strongly due to how the game is playing out (Day 2 or Day 3), until you can conveniently push for your target's lynch such as in LYLO. It pretty much is neutral for most of the game, but since we're in LYLO, neutral doesn't quite cut it anymore. I have to make that judgment call about your target now and peg it as likely Town or likely Scum. That's one of the reasons I'm attacking you now.

Fair, but I'm not ceding the point, I merely can't argue against an opinion like that. I mean, it's a matter of approach at this point.

The scumminess is that you say you are totally against the Suwako wagon, but would at least be a little more favorable to a Serp wagon via #599, yet you have no votes on one or the other to truly reflect such attitudes. You stated viewpoints that are Townie in nature, but did not act on such viewpoints when you had the opportunity to swing momentum to that or at least to a different wagon than Suwako. Bystanderism is scummy which includes leaving your vote on throwaway targets especially when you were resigned that your vote would probably be a throwaway target in your #599. You were like that in Day 3 and to some extent in Day 2.

I do not cede this point, because of the reasons previously stated. In terms of value and towniness neither target was worthwhile, nor was either target worth diverting for the other. In my view at the time. I disagree it was bystanderism. I call it being caught between a rock and a hard place

Scum UK stands to gain a lot by not using her vote to shift the wagon away from Suwako back to Serp while echoing the sentiment that Suwako is the wrong lynch. And if by deadline, the Serp lynch retook the lead, UK could tack on in the end and gain Town cred. If you ask me how likely this scenario is, I think it's reasonable because her position was pretty much the only undecided one at the time. I find this "carefully sitting back" kind of a scenario to be more likely than a Scum Rou doing what he has done this game.

I can't argue your probabilities since they were pretty much pulled out of your ass and everyone would have a different opinion. Stalemate here.

UK's D1 play wasn't bad imo.  There was a pretty good amount of scum hunting, ans she picks VgT over Suwako.  However, at this point I don't think Affinity and Rou are buddies, which means at least one person was bussing VgT.  Out of Kiro, Sodium and UK I think UK is the most likely person to be bussing.  Kiro and Sodium got on the wagon before there was a lot of pressure on VgT, and UK got on the wagon after it was pretty clear that either Suwako or VgT was going down.

I really didn't want to point this out but...that's quite a sub optimal play for scum UK. There was no need for VgT to go down then, since my vote actually tied it up 4 to 4 I believe (either that or put VgT at 5 to 4). I do not know which vote Sodium's fell on. At any rate...it's up to you to decide from there.

I don't think there's much else to argue against K4U

UK's response towards Kiro is bad, since she doesn't find Kiro scummy for any reasons which happened before today.  Furthermore, she doesn't really have a coherent case today and seems more focused on defense than anything else.  Reread is highly anticipated

Please don't strawman. I never said Kiro was scummy. Yes, I am defending mostly today. I did most of my attacking these past few days and plan to vote Rou if nothing turns up when I reread you. which, I suppose I'll actually do today after this post, much as I really don't feel like it.

I'll quickly note that UK STILL hasn't done that Affinity reread which she promised a while back.

I'll quickly note you know DAMN WELL I was playing Umineko yesterday and finishing it off because I was rather entranced by the awesome.

Anyway, rectifying now, etc.

[UncertainJakutten]

OMGIreallydon'twannadothiswhatapainintheass
on Affinity

Yay, I didn't have to start til page 4~

Post 98: Pokes me and Umu and Anthony...ok fair enough

Post 121 appears to be decent as well...

Post 160 pokes VgT. Will there be a follow up?

Post 173 bothers me a little...did we ever ask for further elaboration on that?

Post 218 is good for explaining that. Fair post overall

294 feels decent

378 is decent on Anthony.

389 does bring up an interesting point. That VgT never WAS followed up on...this does not bode well

419 is quite decent (well duh, it agrees with me )

427 shows the start of a shift from Suwa town to Suwa scum

I like 478, though it does only poke Serpy

490 is reasonable..

Affinity 546: Oh hey, you play Umineko (or listen to Wrathie too much ) Also appears to be on the right track

550 is more of a shift to Suwa scum...I guess I should have argued more for Suwa town

607 is fair, but probably should involve more Vote: Serpy

Oh, still fine with Suwa :S

Ugh at 644...what the hell Affinity?

648...did I get an answer for what Serp point?

685 should contain more Vote Serpy given Affinity's views

698...actually, it is lylo so I can understand hesitance on vote Serpy. He was at L-1 I'm guessing?

No, L-3. Honestly, there should be more Vote Serpy

711 needs more...oh, there it is, Vote Serpy. Bout time.

725 feels like you are trying to poke everyone...except me...seems odd

728 is decent reasoning for why Rou's vote sucked but I don't think you are absolved of your reasoning. Serpy was at L-3 wasn't he?

731...did I miss something? What's the Kiro case?

Eh...everything to the end seems logical.

Honestly, not feeling Affinity scum

With that, I feel comfortable doing this

##Vote Roukanken

[Sodium]

Bah, the post I was writing got eaten by a extremely short power outage. =V

And I've got HMWK and studying to do. =V So yeah. I'm just going to post some opinions later, because I need to do some stuff right now.

[Kitten4u]

Oh, I'm sorry for the misinterpretation.  u-mu's voting post then was along the lines of, say, 'ending random vote session is scummy', and selective thingies such as Rou not taking Anthony's defense as scummy, which was far worse than UK's accusations of Rou straw-manning him and Rou sticking fingers into pies without following up.  UK's reasons in my opinion were far better, thus I didn't focus on her at all.  As for UK's part of the problem, I can't say anything since I ain't her.

I was actually refering to earlier in the game than that.  At the time her only bit of original content on Rou was the strawman, but okay.  Though, this post made me remember something else that I had actually forgotten about.

Umu has fair points on Rou. I don't disagree with them and I'll be placing a serious'd vote at the end of this post depending on what piques my interest.

I think Umu brings up some legit points on Rou, but I don't think the case on Rou is stronger than the one on Anthony.

Am I the only one that thinks those two comments look similar?  UK didn't elaborate on why she agreed with Umu either (and yes, I read through all her posts between that quote and the post where you call me out for not elaborating on stuff).  What's the difference between what I said and what UK said?

It does.  I questioned VgT, and that in itself is talking about him, and it was implicitly a stance that I found his scumhunting ways weird and loopholish; if not I would not be questioning him.  I am not saying that I am cleared totally on this issue at all, but I was simply asking the question.

Then I suppose when I asked Umu to elaborate on Nietz I must have thought he was scum (I didn't).  Asking a single question isn't a stance.  As I said, I cannot tell if you thought VgT was scummy or not based on that post and you never actually follow up and you never mention him anywhere else.  Therefore, I think that you never actually commented on VgT and I think it's flat out bad that you tried to use that post to make it sound like you did.  The way I see it, saying that you talked about VgT would be like me saying I talked about Kilga.

If town lynches UK today, and she flips scum, then yes, it's perfectly fine for you to find those who did not talk about UK much scummy, for example, me.  But the idea is that there is no guarantee that she is scum yet, thus there has to be an assumption that there is such for it to be a valid point against me.  I'm sure others would disagree with me, but I am more for finding associations between the dead and the alive instead of the alive and alive unless a clearcut chainsaw occurs between the two.  Makes everything simpler.

Well naturally I'd want to connect you to the dead scum too and I was under the impression I did so.  You didn't talk about VgT despite him being a major bandwagon (and worse you tried to make it sound like you did) and your switch to Suwako D3 was really awkward.  There were also minimal comments about Serp even though you said that you found him very suspicious (and no, I don't expect you to repeat what you said to Kiro on this).  I just think you have suspicious connections to UK as well, and since there are two scum left I find that to be a good point.

I really didn't want to point this out but...that's quite a sub optimal play for scum UK. There was no need for VgT to go down then, since my vote actually tied it up 4 to 4 I believe (either that or put VgT at 5 to 4). I do not know which vote Sodium's fell on. At any rate...it's up to you to decide from there.

Sodium was second, Kiro was third you were fifth.  Both Sodium and Kiro voted before there was a lot of pressure on him and you voted after there was a lot.  So yeah, I still think that you are the most likely person to have been bussing.

[UncertainJakutten]

Sodium was second, Kiro was third you were fifth.  Both Sodium and Kiro voted before there was a lot of pressure on him and you voted after there was a lot.  So yeah, I still think that you are the most likely person to have been bussing.

Well, one could quite easily argue that it was safer when to vote him for townie points earlier without cost than later.

I think it'll end up in WIFOM.

[FinnKaenbyou]

I'm sort of irritated with how much of UK's analysis here consists of 'Post X is okay', to be frank. You say that you have several problems with him - never following up on that VgT poke from D1, reluctance to vote Serp despite saying he appreciates the case, singling you out as the one person he doesn't analyse, the case on Kiro you don't get - and yet you dismiss him as being logical? It doesn't really add up.

In terms of value and towniness neither target was worthwhile, nor was either target worth diverting for the other. In my view at the time.

This comes across as plain laziness. 'I don't care about the two main lynches because I have my own target, so I'll just not give opinions or contribute with everyone else'.
Mafia is about killing off players outside of your factions. So if you're Town and believe that someone under suspicion is Townie, then you should be doing your damnedest to protect them. Sitting back and letting them die is anti-Town, how much of a case you say you have on me.

I can't argue your probabilities since they were pretty much pulled out of your ass and everyone would have a different opinion. Stalemate here.

The argument is that scum don't want to draw attention to themselves with big wagon shifts onto Townies, and by avoiding a stance on Serp/Suwa D3 you were avoiding attention. Not really sure how this qualifies as probability.

I really didn't want to point this out but...that's quite a sub optimal play for scum UK. There was no need for VgT to go down then, since my vote actually tied it up 4 to 4 I believe (either that or put VgT at 5 to 4). I do not know which vote Sodium's fell on. At any rate...it's up to you to decide from there.

Thinking about this further...this line of logic only holds if one of these players survives. If scum were relatively sure that Suwako was going to be lynched anyway, they'd jump onto the VgT wagon for townie cred. I can only really make this hypothesis because the alternative is that Affinity and I are a scumpair and I'm pretty sure that isn't the case. So if scum weren't on the VgT wagon, UK, does that mean you endorse the Rou/Aff pair despite not seeing Affinity scum?

Really, fine with an Affinity or a UK lynch at this point.

[UncertainJakutten]

I'm sort of irritated with how much of UK's analysis here consists of 'Post X is okay', to be frank. You say that you have several problems with him - never following up on that VgT poke from D1, reluctance to vote Serp despite saying he appreciates the case, singling you out as the one person he doesn't analyse, the case on Kiro you don't get - and yet you dismiss him as being logical? It doesn't really add up.

Compared to what I perceive from you, yes. Quite a bit more so. I have about 3 or 4 problems compared to the like over 9000 I have with you.

This comes across as plain laziness. 'I don't care about the two main lynches because I have my own target, so I'll just not give opinions or contribute with everyone else'.
Mafia is about killing off players outside of your factions. So if you're Town and believe that someone under suspicion is Townie, then you should be doing your damnedest to protect them. Sitting back and letting them die is anti-Town, how much of a case you say you have on me.

To the first, nice strawman. It's pretty cool
To the second, but is it scummy?

The argument is that scum don't want to draw attention to themselves with big wagon shifts onto Townies, and by avoiding a stance on Serp/Suwa D3 you were avoiding attention. Not really sure how this qualifies as probability.

He proposed a scenario. I already proposed my scenario. They aren't compatible. But yelling at each other isn't going to change that. I can't push the point

Thinking about this further...this line of logic only holds if one of these players survives. If scum were relatively sure that Suwako was going to be lynched anyway, they'd jump onto the VgT wagon for townie cred. I can only really make this hypothesis because the alternative is that Affinity and I are a scumpair and I'm pretty sure that isn't the case. So if scum weren't on the VgT wagon, UK, does that mean you endorse the Rou/Aff pair despite not seeing Affinity scum?

But I never said that VgT wasn't bussed, did I? I merely said that I wasn't the one doing it.

I already explained why

So...yeah..next question?

[FinnKaenbyou]

Compared to what I perceive from you, yes. Quite a bit more so. I have about 3 or 4 problems compared to the like over 9000 I have with you.

There's a difference between 'I don't think Affinity is scummy' and 'I think Affinity is scummy but I think Rou is worse'.

To the first, nice strawman. It's pretty cool

I'm saying that's how I interpret it. It's an opinion, so it doesn't qualify as strawman.

To the second, but is it scummy?

Not attempting to intervene to protect people who you think are Townie? Yeah, I'd say that qualifies as scummy. Are you honestly trying to claim you're third-party here?

But I never said that VgT wasn't bussed, did I? I merely said that I wasn't the one doing it.

I already explained why

The point I'm making is that if scum thought both lynches were going down eventually, there was no harm in lynching VgT first for the sake of Town cred. Based on that, where better to stand than a late swing vote?

[UncertainJakutten]

There's a difference between 'I don't think Affinity is scummy' and 'I think Affinity is scummy but I think Rou is worse'.

I don't see you two as together.

Not attempting to intervene to protect people who you think are Townie? Yeah, I'd say that qualifies as scummy. Are you honestly trying to claim you're third-party here?

No, I'm saying I screwed up and did something anti town, but I doubt it implicates me as scum because I usually don't protect people anyway.

I'm saying that's how I interpret it. It's an opinion, so it doesn't qualify as strawman.

But the opinion is one that is so far from what I actually said it's untrue

The point I'm making is that if scum thought both lynches were going down eventually, there was no harm in lynching VgT first for the sake of Town cred. Based on that, where better to stand than a late swing vote?

Wasn't really "late" per se. Actually about halfway though if I'm counting right.

At any rate, I'm still pissed at the Suwa lynch. That should not have happened, and I wouldn't have banked on it as either alignment...

[FinnKaenbyou]

No, I'm saying I screwed up and did something anti town, but I doubt it implicates me as scum because I usually don't protect people anyway.

So you're clearing yourself based on meta? >_>

But the opinion is one that is so far from what I actually said it's untrue

Because obviously everything everyone says in mafia is absolutely true. There's no such thing as hidden intent.

Wasn't really "late" per se. Actually about halfway though if I'm counting right.

The point still stands - if both were going to fall, there was no harm in getting some credit for VgT's death.

At any rate, I'm still pissed at the Suwa lynch. That should not have happened, and I wouldn't have banked on it as either alignment...

Then why didn't you do anything about it? Assuming that the rest of the players will magically come to the same opinion as you is, at best, horrendous Town play.

[Kiro]

Affinity: #595, vote change at bottom. I spent a few posts considering everything in Day 3 and in those, my opinion was gradually changing. The 2 flips in Day 4 negated that Day 3 analysis. It took both flips to justify throwing out my analysis as bunk due to game setup meta as well as Serp's hesitance to actually vig Suwako on Night 2. I thought it was self-evident with the new points I made.

UK: More or less, points we are disagreeing on are subject to interpretation, but you have not disproved them so I still see them as valid in my own eyes. In essence, none of your replies to me convinced me you're more likely to be Town than what I see in Rou. As for your reread on Affinity, lots of "should have voted Serpy," comments, but you still think he's not Scum and vote Rou? Meh, just a recap, there's no analysis or direct comparison between Affinity and Rou. I don't think your decision makes sense and is scummy.

To chip in on the Day 3 issue: UK, the issue with you not intervening in Day 3 is that you're smart enough to realize that your preferred lynch was just not going to happen that day. We still want a lynch and you would have grudgingly had to give up Rou again for one more Day and throw your input into a close race: Suwako and Serp. You didn't and with the way the flips came out, it makes more sense for Scum to hang back than Town. Once again, judgment call since I can't shirk from this in LYLO.

I think UK's lack of analysis in the Affinity reread clinches her as my primary lynch candidate and I'm not finding the back and forth between her and Rou incriminating Rou in any strong fashion comparatively. Still thinking Affinity is the scumbuddy. I'd prefer Sodium get something in before the votes lead to a lynch at the end, but I'll start things off here.

##Vote UncertainKitten

[Sodium]

Rou, people should be able to defend themselves, unless someone's argument is poor / has an obvious counter / has a poor point worth pointing out to everyone. Defending someone to the point of chainsawing or to the point where you're just trying to stop legitimate points(and thus, scumhunting) against someone is not townie. Sorta like what I'm doing right now with your "YOU SHOULD DEFEND PEOPLE YOU THINK ARE TOWN TO THE DEATH".

That being said, UK should have you know, actually said more about a lynch she didn't want.

UK's re-read leads nowhere. Points out a bunch of things she dislikes, and then says "It makes sense logically(never said how), so I don't think Affinity is scum". Neither do I, but conflicting observations and conclusion/10.

...Oh, and the "that's how I play, deal with it" doesn't help. Just because you play that way doesn't make it scummy/anti-town.

Kitten4U:

Kiro + Sodium: Largely based on the fact that I think they're both town right now.  Being that early on the VgT wagon makes both of them look good.  Sodium also stuck with the Serp wagon D3 and Kiro has just been generally awesome that I doubt either of them are scum.  Naturally, Rou cannot be scum buddies with town.

UK + Affinity: Both attacked Rou a lot.  Enough that I doubt it was a bus.

There's either some serious bussing going on here or Rou is town.  So, for those that still think Rou is scum, who is his buddy?

So you're saying that you didn't give those two scumpair theories? The first is the one that really raises eyebrows.
Buddy? By Process of elimination, you. But that would pretty much be a random shot in the dark too...

Well, less then a day left. Okay, Rou either:
Is the most obvbuddy to dead people ever
Has the worst townie intuition ever(Rou isn't Reimu =3)

Although I concede that there really isn't anyone to link him to strongly. So let's test our luck...

*insert vote for UK here if Kiro didn't ninja vote her* (Don't want to L-1 yet. Deadline is still 12+ hours away)

I want to vote Rou, but firstly, I doubt that is going to go anywhere, and secondly, he's obvbuddy to some dead people. Which is fine and dandy, but I'm hoping for some alive people to connect people to.
And UK really hasn't done much outside from "KILL MAIM BURN Rou", so if she flips scum, Rou's cleared. If she flips town, and Rou is town, I will facedesk really hard. If she's town and Rou's scum, I will never not vote people I think are obvscum ever again.
---
Unrelated, but RAGE
What the fuck, UK. Why'd you merge so many topics together and make a 98 page topic? Crashed the boards when I was making a post, causing me to lose ANOTHER POST. ;_;
---
Damit Kiro. I lose a post, and then you ninja me with the vote I would make. And I don't want to L-1 yet.

[FinnKaenbyou]

Rou, people should be able to defend themselves, unless someone's argument is poor / has an obvious counter / has a poor point worth pointing out to everyone. Defending someone to the point of chainsawing or to the point where you're just trying to stop legitimate points(and thus, scumhunting) against someone is not townie.

UK claimed that she saw Suwako and Serp as not as bad as I am. Thus she could have argued in two ways over it:
- Explain why the arguments against the above were false
- Explain why exactly I was worse than either of the above
She did neither, simply voting me without really comparing her case with the ones that were relevant, and when deadline rolled around she didn't do a thing with her vote.

I should probably be around for the last few hours before deadline to make hammer votes. Again, happy with either a UK or an Affinity lynch.

[Sodium]

Which is why I said that she should've said more about those two. Especially when she was missing the whole day. Just talking about some Mafia Theory. That's also part of the reason I want you dead, but whatever.

Uh, I'd like some peoples to chime in before I vote.

[Kitten4u]

So you're saying that you didn't give those two scumpair theories? The first is the one that really raises eyebrows.

Yeah, I said that but I don't think you're understanding what I was saying.  I don't think you or Kiro are scum so trying to pair you with Rou felt really, really forced in my opinion.  And since UK and Affinity attacked Rou so much (enough that I don't think it was a bus) I could not find a single person to pair Rou with that made any sense at all.

Anyway, I'm fine with either UK or Affinity for today.

[Sodium]

OH. I GET WHAT YOU WERE SAYING NOW.

...Next time, please don't talk about scumpairs and then list people in pairs for something in common. That's just begging to be misunderstood.

I probably won't be here exactly on the deadline, but I'll be here from 8 - 5 hours before the deadline. So yeah.

[Kitten4u]

...Next time, please don't talk about scumpairs and then list people in pairs for something in common. That's just begging to be misunderstood.

... *palmface* I blame it on being 3 AM when I typed that.

[UncertainJakutten]

So you're clearing yourself based on meta? >_>

I wouldn't say clearing. I'm merely arguing based on it.

Because obviously everything everyone says in mafia is absolutely true. There's no such thing as hidden intent.

Sure. Would you like me to say it in red?

Then why didn't you do anything about it? Assuming that the rest of the players will magically come to the same opinion as you is, at best, horrendous Town play.

I expressed my opinions, no one listened. This has been rehashed over 9000 times.

Well, whatever, can't say I didn't expect that from Kiro

What the fuck, UK. Why'd you merge so many topics together and make a 98 page topic? Crashed the boards when I was making a post, causing me to lose ANOTHER POST. ;_;

Because it seemed like a good idea at the time. Did you think I knew they'd crash? If I did, I wouldn't have done it

UK's re-read leads nowhere. Points out a bunch of things she dislikes, and then says "It makes sense logically(never said how), so I don't think Affinity is scum". Neither do I, but conflicting observations and conclusion/10.

I meant most of his posts flowed logically except for the few things I did find.

But, whatever, I'm the obvious lynch today. Have fun.

Farewell. We'll not meet again.

(well, not in this game)

[Affinity]

@Rou: Not really related to the game, but haha, I think your case sucks because you implied indirectly that elephants can fly but you can't say that is a strawman because that is my opinion and interpretation.

---

@K4u

UK didn't elaborate on why she agreed with Umu either (and yes, I read through all her posts between that quote and the post where you call me out for not elaborating on stuff).  What's the difference between what I said and what UK said?

Nothing between, but before.  As I said, UK had different reasons for voting Rou, and even though she may agree with u-mu, it is less worthy of consideration than a person whose only opinions on Rou hinges on agreeing with the u-mu case for no reasons (e.g you). 

The other points, I think are pointless to defend at this point, it's just a back and forth.

---

Cases:

UK is not detailed enough with her post-by-post.  Why is my Kiro case bad?  And why am I still logical after everything?  There really seems to be a lack of stances, which is bad this game.  To all the 'why didn't you vote accusations', I would simply cite K4u, who only voted moments before I did, who thought Serp was scummy as well, and Rou, who, uh, voted for someone who didn't think was scummy at all and hammered.  (But ah, he defended someone he thought was town in the best way possible, no contradiction there!)  It was simply waiting for the end of the day and voting only when necessary.

Also, let me summarize my case on Kiro, though it may not be one I may follow through with today.  D2 thought Suwako was obvtown because of bandwagon analysis.  Concrete evidence.  Goes on to switch D3 because of Serp's reasoning, roleclaim and scumhunting (not affecting the evidence), which pushed Suwako to the bottom.  D4 goes a complete turnaround and actually goes on to say that Serp's reasoning is horrible, something which is NOT affected by flips at all.  Votes him for pushing the Suwako bandwagon', which he himself did too.  This has a little bit of scum motive attached to it.  Also, Kiro, I don't see it here.  Did you mean 589? 

Roukanken's questioning, throughout the game, I have to admit, despite all his AtE and his silly mistakes, looks town.  He went out of his way to attack people when he could have just laid back, which is what I think scum would do.  What I'm worried about, however, is that he has virtually no consistency in his personality between days, and thus it's very hard to really peg him as town.  I however hate his play this game overall.

Sodium is another potential lynch.  Other than the K4u post on D2 and being the first one to point out the role confusion with Serp on D4, and some sporadic questioning, he has not really done all that much, especially for today.  Going for Roukanken is perfectly fine, but saying that Kiro has some scummy points without saying anything about them and not really going to why I'm not scum (I'm not, but I think the case against me is decent enough) sounds like scum trying to wait out the day.  But bandwagon analysis are favorable towards him.

K4u is a really good player, and I simply am most confident about her.  If she turns out to be scum, then I must take my hat off, because I can't think of such.

I'm thinking of either Kiro or UK today.  Ninja by UK was horrible. 

[FinnKaenbyou]

@Rou: Not really related to the game, but haha, I think your case sucks because you implied indirectly that elephants can fly but you can't say that is a strawman because that is my opinion and interpretation.

Misrep. Strawman is 'you said A' when they said B. This is 'you meant A' when they said B.

UK giving up is horrible. Not much else to say.

[FinnKaenbyou]

EBWOP: A better way to explain is that scum won't outright say 'I didn't vote because I wanted to avoid attention', they'll come up with an excuse like 'I didn't vote because I felt my case was stronger and I wasn't convinced by either of the cases going out'. I'm suspecting UK of doing this, since she didn't back up her use of the second quote with a decent defense of Suwako/Serp, or even a comparison with her Rou case.

[Sodium]

Whoa, Affinity, you actually expect me to have become a good player overnight? =3

But seriously, I've been somewhat busy.

And I'm saying that everyone has done something scummy by now. I then looked at whether the TOWN things you've done outweighs the scummy stuff. Do I have to list out everything? I prefer just to get the main message across and then go into details later. Less walls for me(I've been somewhat busy after all), and less repeating too.

And UKs post looked like a "I give up, cya". I'm exaggerating, but whatever. I doubt someone as experienced as UK would be moronic enough to give up as town on LYLO.
##Vote UK L-1
Everyone is cool with UK getting lynched, and UK herself gave up(WOW! A 100% MAJORITY). There really isn't anything that will stop the lynch, so no point in dragging it out. If UK is town, I will face desk.

[UncertainJakutten]

GOOD MORRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNIIIIIIIIIIIING!

##Unvote, Vote UncertainKitten

Have a nice day!

[Sodium]

...wat?

*shuts up*

[Edible]

Vote Count: Uh...
Affinity (1): Roukanken
UncertainKitten (3): Kiro, Sodium, UncertainKitten

Not voting: Buh?

With 6 alive, it takes 4 to lynch.

(Did I miss a vote somewhere? o_o)

[Kilgamayan]

You jerkwads tricked me. >:|