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| Labyrinth of Touhou 2 - 18F |
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| Rinnie:
--- Quote from: elminster1372 on July 28, 2018, 02:23:43 PM ---Incidentally, this is a "damage potential" estimation I once made to help me selecting my LoT1 characters. It notably doesn't include a few chars, like Reimu, Marisa, and Yuuka (it does include Remilia and Iku - they're just below Utsuho ^^). It also doesn't factor speed/delay/buffs (like Maribel's Overflowing Unnatural Power) either, and calculates the opponent's defense as 0 (which might sound crazy, but actually doesn't change calcs much in the lategame). It only counts ATK/MAG (adjusted by library levels), the multiplier of the character's best move (such as Lavatein for Flandre, Knockout in Three Steps for Yuugi, etc.), and levelling rate. I still think it might be useful knowledge, though: <snip image> --- End quote --- Indeed this is a very useful knowledge (and what do you mean that Marisa isn't even in this list? ??? Is she in Bottom 10 list or something? Or you didn't calculate her usefulness?) Would be nice to see similar table for LoT2 :) |
| elminster1372:
--- Quote from: Rinnie on July 28, 2018, 09:42:40 PM ---Indeed this is a very useful knowledge (and what do you mean that Marisa isn't even in this list? ??? Is she in Bottom 10 list or something? Or you didn't calculate her usefulness?) Would be nice to see similar table for LoT2 :) --- End quote --- I didn't calculate her because, while her Master Spark's "potential" would prolly exceed even Flandre's Lavatein, the rest of her package is way too subpar - similar reason why I didn't calculate Yuuka. As for Reimu, well... back when I wrote this, I did not expect that her damage output would be actually decent, if I redid the calculations today I'd surely include her. For LoT2, well... it's much harder. Synergies mean that you can't calculate a character's potential on its own. You need to calculate different combinations, compare the "overall" damage output of the squad, and see what's the best combo. Even then, though, it's really hard to quantify. Furthermore, there are some benefits which are simply too "intangible" to quantify. I'm sure that with enough math jumbo it might be "solvable", but that goes way beyond the sort of effort I'd put into a game :-) |
| LonelyGaruga:
I was working on calculating character damage potential for Labyrinth of Touhou 2 back when 1.103 was the latest update, but I gave up around Satori (doing them in in-game order). There are a lot of variables so I generally just used the most favorable ones. I did complete Satori's full list of available spell cards though, minus Hexer/Toxicologist spell cards. Of course, I also did Iku and Tenshi. Might be something worth resuming, I stopped doing it because I didn't think it'd be useful to anyone, but maybe that's not the case. |
| Serela:
edit:woah I haven't had a real lot1 balance discussion in a long time I PROBABLY GOT CARRIED AWAY --- Quote from: elminster1372 on July 28, 2018, 06:30:05 PM ---I wouldn't say it's focused SOLELY on WINNER farming. It's true that most of my evaluations start becoming more and more true as you progress through WINNER wins, but you can already start seeing signs of it as soon as you start farming 30F (so, around level 450+). --- End quote --- Yeah... which is only one floor out of the game. A well made team can -beat- winner at 450~500, already. Few people play past that point, and many aren't changing their team much at the 30f+ point. When making a tier list, I wouldn't significantly consider this part of the game at all, unless the list was specifically aimed at winner farming. I do try to remember that your tier list is focused around "lategame" performance, but if you consider that to mean "plus disk performance", it still seems heavily slanted towards winner over anything else; my list on the other hand accounts for most of the game where you have the freedom to choose between most of the cast, so maybe past the middle of main game I guess? --- Quote ---As far as Rinnosuke goes, I think it depends on how you handle library numbers. [snip] This basically ends up exacerbating stat differences significantly, making chars like Rinnosuke actually shine as they're supposed to and making things like Youmu's magical bulk vs Yuyuko's magical bulk actually apparent, even at very high levels. As for Wriggle... Wriggle's problem is not simply that Poison is bad, but that there are other characters - such as Yuugi - that can apply PSN as well as being useful, whereas PSN is all Wriggle has going for her. Sure, Wriggle's PSN application chance might be higher, but unlike in LoT2 where it runs out quickly, in LoT1 PSN lasts for a long time, especially at Plus Disc levels. --- End quote --- I already did that; opening my game back and up matching all their stats to 80k cost (50k on speed because money >.>; ) Rinno's stats are only on level with Alice. About equal if you average def/mnd/hp, equivalent offenses but Alice has -significantly- better attack formulas for non-zero-defense opponents. And she's not exactly a particularly durable or strong character. I'm not saying your results are wrong, but I think that the kind of stats you have at 255-winner-kills levels scale... somewhat differently. You said yourself that after a certain point, everyone hits the max amount of exp per level- as the slowest leveler in the game, Rinnosuke would certainly benefit more than others, wouldn't he? In general high-exp-cost levelers might come out better than faster, lower-base levelers. 97% of the game is done under lv300, god only knows what happens at lv3000... Stats-> Rinno: http://puu.sh/B4VQY.png Alice: http://puu.sh/B4VTM.png They're both at lv253 on most stats, coincidentally, as they have the same library level rate (for Alice's better stats like MAG/MND at least). And, Wriggle's problem is -absolutely- that poison is bad. :V Parallaxal actually did a video where he aggressively applied poison for an entire long postgame bossfight and then went back and counted damage numbers, and the poison damage totalled at... about one Megawatt worth. It was not a short boss, so that was utterly pathetic. Poison is, however, excellent and worthwhile before Plus Disk. As for using Wriggle for it, all ailments have identical accuracy in LoT1 (other than DTH) but I think the consensus had been that higher strength poison dealt more damage. This was a VERY long time ago, mind you, and it's also very hard to test poison damage in LoT1 in general, so I can't guarantee this was accurate information and whether people had actually read about or tested it. I feel like it was the case though??? --- Quote ---Have you tried Mystia instead? Sure, she might be a bit slower, but her own fast-hitting attack at least is non-elemental (and has a slightly better multiplier), which I'd happily take over Aya once I start farming 30F with its incredible diversity of enemies. --- End quote --- Mystia is very excellent at clearing randoms. Her good level rate makes her stats passable enough to work for bosses as well, but she's really nothing special there; just good enough you're not disappointed in using a slot on her. Aya, on the other hand, RIPS through bosses once she has the SP to spam Peerless Wind God; maintaining a permanent 100% speed buff makes it blazingly fast, and I recall considering her damage-over-time on the level of Flandre or greater- enough that it was -still- competitive vs. most of my attackers on WND-resistant bosses. (Not the 500 affinity Serpent of Chaos, but...) Aya and Mystia don't even factor into 30f. The frontline was Yukari, Nitori, Iku and Kaguya, in that order. I tailored their Speed to the correct amounts, and it'd go something like Stickleback->Megawatt->Stone Bowl->Megawatt->Spiriting Away->Megawatt->Stickleback->Hourai Barrage, if they lived that long. Or, Nitori's alltarget attacks if necessary. There's no chain bonus in LoT1 so it was fine to go back home now and then for SP. Chen was a run-away for awhile due to speed, but for the most part, this utterly annihilated 30F. I don't recall how long it took to work perfectly but I think I was farming 30F rather than liliths, before I hit 400, and as my level rose I was able to take out steps to make it faster- I recall using Yuyuko in the lineup eventually. --- Quote ---I didn't mention affinities, because I just took as a given that you'll get all your chars at 500 affinity (which is trivially easy in LoT1, considering 3X MGL gives you +300 to affinities, meaning you only need to up your levels to 200). Though, even then, as long as you give library levels proportionately to stat growths (as I've explained above), you'll still see significant differences between, say, how Shikieki or Yuyuko tank WINNER's Wand attacks and how Youmu or Yuugi do. --- End quote --- So easy that characters like Youmu or Yuugi can easily receive hundreds of extra affinity past 500 to make up the difference! Sure, they might not tank it as well, but more than well enough that the difference really doesn't matter. When I was originally thinking about farming Winner I tailored up Yuugi to replace Meiling in the first slot and she was a champ. Ultimately though, the fight was way too long and boring to farm. I commend you for sticking it out to 255 wins, though. --- Quote ---As for Iku vs Keine... the fact is that (1) Keine has much better physical bulk, and the strongest attacks which tend to hit your tank at those levels (like Ringil) are physical, and (2) Keine's ability to buff the entire frontline instead of one char at a time makes a large difference when you're running a frontline of Keine/nuker/nuker/Reimu, as you probably should once you're that high in level. --- End quote --- As I said before- this is boiling down to "Keine is better at Winner farming", which she certainly is. Iku's stellar MND doesn't matter when you have 500+ affinities to resist all magical attacks, and for most of the Winner fight there's little reason not to have as much offense out as you can manage. Winner's fight design is... not like most bosses in the game, long but mostly non-dangerous until the end, and that plus wanting many kills means you try to pack in a lot of damage rather than playing carefully to ensure a single win. --- Quote ---Uh, I wonder if you have actually ran damage calculations with some of these chars - I mean, under which conditions would Remilia even remotely outdamage Rinnosuke? Even Scarlet Gold Sword easily outdamages Spear the Gugnir... Also, you don't seem to account at all for the durability of characters in your tier list - even something like WINNER's Wand can near floor the likes of Kaguya or Patchouli (despite their seemingly good MND) - I'd rather use Yuyuko who not only is much bulkier than both of them but also heftly outdamages them except perhaps against very high-MND opponents like the 28F boss. But once you reach 30F, even high-MND opponents like Tenshi will take more damage from Yuyuko. --- End quote --- Again, you're quoting Winner examples :V Kaguya annihilates random fights with her immensely powerful and defense-ignoring alltargets, does high damage on bosses, and has good utility in Stone Bowl, and LoT1 is a glass cannon's dream game until late Plus. Patchouli is vastly easier to use than in LoT2, as there are very few physical all-targets (that aren't a survivable row-target) and she's got the MND to survive most composite attacks with just a little extra investment into it (whether it's good MND gear, a little extra MND library'ing, or a few MND levelups). No, she doesn't work well against Winner, but she's great until 30F and that's like 97% of the game content. She'll eat the Rankain from Kedamagrammaton for zero damage without it being debuffed, which was important before people realized you can debuff it after the first rankain charge... oops. There's actually a surprising number of bosses that completely lack any physical damage, for that matter. Bosses with mostly physical moves, on the other hand, are pretty rare. Patch does start getting kinda slow around the end of maingame, admittedly. At that point it has to be remembered that my list tries to account for most of the game- but she's still fully viable, unlike characters like Chen and Wriggle who fall off -hard- in Plus. About specifically Remilia, Rinnosuke should (slightly) outdamage her assuming he always has proper buff support, but Remilia can cover all her own stats, has significantly more HP, and levels slightly faster. Remilia's buff support doesn't matter that much at the point of Winner, but Remilia can still top herself off more than your other frontliners to maintain a higher average buff amount for her defenses. And honestly, they've got the same base attack and similar formulas unless Rinnosuke can hit a weakness- SGS is a little better than Gungnir, mostly in defense piercing, but Remi also levels slightly faster. Composite damage formula on his other attacks is unfortunate when you aren't in 255 winner world, I recall Traumerei often hitting for same/less as Scarlet Gold unless his buffs were near max. I'd still say she's mostly outclassed in plus disk by other characters, but I wouldn't name Rinnosuke as the one to do it. She might have been ranked slightly too high on my list? Yuyuko is really, really good. Like... after beating Shikieki on 26f. But let's face it, that's dreadfully late in the game, and she's absolute dead weight on SPI-resistant bosses like Shiki and Serpent of Chaos, and she doesn't have the SP to be a good character until that point in the game either. She's pretty poor if she isn't spamming SFN. I did rank her as A-tier after that point, though, but the fact that it's over halfway through POSTgame is significant. Also honestly I'm really not a fan of World Shaking Military Rule. It's good, for opening on Winner, where all the strategies are different and you want fast damage and can totally just sit your frontline out as Reimu tanks and heals them. It's good for farming 20F fights before you're at the level to handle them. I -don't- like using it in almost any other situation, because then Rinnosuke is stuck in his spot until he dies, and it's not that hard to buff people by the time you get him. If I commented on your list otherwise, it'd probably be Kanako. I tried to use her before, and her poor HP stat made her oft-praised bulk rather laughable. Think Remilia, but with a third of her HP cut off. Her damage is also pretty underwhelming. Her only claim to fame is having the only CLD nuke in the game, the most common weakness of LoT1 bosses. Unfortunately, that means she's mediocre against every boss that -isn't- weak to CLD. |
| ZoomyTsugumi:
Yeah I don't think its great to base all balance opinions of the characters off of Winner farming viability or super super late game usage in general. It's alright to take it into account but to say that "There were a lot of characters which were simply outclassed in nearly every possible way" when you're dealing with the most inflated stats in the game is a bit much. The balance for maingame is completely different, and even post/early-mid plus is vastly different to 30F levels. The Tierlist changes a lot depending on how far in you are, and a lot of those people you've put at lower tiers can suffice well enough for maingame. Of course though there are people who pretty much outclass others entirely, but during the duration of maingame its totally workable to use those who are outclassed because the gap isn't really that wide. And because there's only so many different actions that they can do it's only better for the viability of subbing in someone else who does the same thing, rather than subbing someone else in and missing out on an important unique ability in 2 which may also just make that one person soo much better for that job in the first place. I feel like skills make the balance more all over the place honestly. The biggest argument for some characters being deadweight for maingame is plus disk characters, especially ones like Utsuho who are just meh even during plus disc. But a lot of that is also just SP cost issues and less about survivability/damage capabilities. The most important part of character balance in 1 is really just how you build them, especially with regards to level up bonuses, and while you'll have characters who are better at their jobs than others no matter what you do, it's totally possible for you to make up for a character not being as great in maingame by building them really well. There's no unique skills to muddy that and make someone just objectively the much better choice for whatever thing. |
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