~Beyond the Border~ > Akyu's Arcade
Cardboard Intervention: TCG/CCG Thread Redux 2
commandercool:
Huh... I'm going to assume the implementation is less heinous than the description. What's the point of doing it that way, design-wise? On paper is sounds like a shitty trap, but I'm assuming there's some kind of reason for it.
Mеа:
Just because, I guess? Most "when" effects are old but since they're still printing a few new "when" effects, I suppose it's not something they're planning on completely phasing out over time.
They mostly seem to be used to balance cards so that the conditions to use them are a little more restrictive, but it does seem more beginner unfriendly than anything else. Most of the time, it only makes those "when" cards unnecessarily crap.
(And there's the additional caveat that only the optional "when" effects miss timing, eg: "When this card is destroyed: you can ... ". Mandatory "when" effects don't.)
commandercool:
Ha ha what. That's just flip-flopping on the part of people making the rulings at that point. Or a deliberate new player trap, but I don't know why anyone would do that on purpose.
I've seen this kind of convoluted rules mess from games with very small rules committees before. If you have a few people with the power to clarify rulings and they don't necessarily agree or communicate with each other you get stuff like this where someone offhandedly makes a ruling and it creates a huge mess that everyone has to deal with forever, or until another person with the power to do so rules the other way. I'm not saying that's definitely what happened here, but I have seen that happen elsewhere (cough cough Heroclix).
hyorinryu:
Wait, that sounds a little different from what I remember if it's what I'm thinking about. From what I recall, "missing the timing" would refer to effects that offer you the choice to activate an effect only do so when the activation requirements is the last thing to happen when the chain resolves. For example take "Dupe Frog." It's text states that "When this card is sent from the field to the Graveyard: You can add 1 "Frog" monster from your Deck or Graveyard to your hand, except "Dupe Frog"." If it's on the field and your opponent activates dark hole, you get his effect because Dupe Frog dying was the last thing that happened(Dark hole resolves -> Dupe dies.) However, if you were offer him as a tribute to summon something like say a Monarch. You would not get dupe's effect because the monarch getting summoned is the last thing that happens when things resolve and not dupe dying(sac Dupe-> Monarch appears). Dupe not getting the effect is what I've seen being referred to "missing the timing." However, other cards, like Sangan, the retrival effect is mandatory. This means you can do all sorts of plays that involve sacrificing him and as long as he hits the graveyard, you will still get his effect.
I've never heard of any issues involving the "if" and "when" stuff. Is this new? The main stuff I'd hear about would be "Priority", and "Missing the timing." It's possible we're talking about the same thing, but I've never heard of any cards that would force your opponents cards to miss the timing. Usually "missing the timing" stuff occurs because the trigger happens in order to pay a cost. I've never heard of a card that makes cards miss the timing when the effects are what's causing stuff to trigger.
--- Quote from: commandercool on November 19, 2018, 02:07:02 AM ---Ha ha what. That's just flip-flopping on the part of people making the rulings at that point. Or a deliberate new player trap, but I don't know why anyone would do that on purpose.
I've seen this kind of convoluted rules mess from games with very small rules committees before. If you have a few people with the power to clarify rulings and they don't necessarily agree or communicate with each other you get stuff like this where someone offhandedly makes a ruling and it creates a huge mess that everyone has to deal with forever, or until another person with the power to do so rules the other way. I'm not saying that's definitely what happened here, but I have seen that happen elsewhere (cough cough Heroclix).
--- End quote ---
If I had to guess, it would probably have something to do with our Yugioh being a translation of Japanese Yugioh, and having to be consistent with standards set when Yugioh was extremely liberal with their translations.
Mеа:
There not being a whole lot of mandatory "when" effects is probably why "if" vs "when" is brought up a lot. But yes, optional "when" effects are the only triggers that miss timing. Mandatory "when" effects and any "if" effects don't miss timing.
So suppose the following face-up monsters on the field are tributed as material for a Tribute summon. Since the event progression goes 1) monster on the field is tributed and leaves the field -> 2) Tribute monster is Tribute Summoned, we get:
* Reborn Tengu's "if" effect will not miss timing and can Special Summon another.
* Peten the Dark Clown's optional "when" effect will miss timing and cannot activate to Special Summon another.
* Tour Bus's mandatory "when" effect will not miss timing and will activate its effect.Mandatory "ifs" and mandatory "whens" are functionally identical. Neither optional "if" effects, mandatory "if" effects, nor mandatory "when" effects miss timing but the latter 2 are not optional. And only optional "when" effects miss timing. There's another word that sometimes shows up, "each time" effects, but these don't miss timing either, like "if" effects.
The effects that don't miss timing don't have to have their triggering conditions meet as the last thing to happen when the chain resolves, they can meet their conditions higher in the chain. Example:
Player 1 controls a Lord Gaia the Fierce Knight and Player 2 has a set Call of the Haunted.
CL1: Player 1 activates Mystical Space Typhoon, targetting Player 2's set Call of the Haunted.
CL2: Player 2 chains Call of the Haunted, targeting a Blue-Eyes White Dragon in the Graveyard.
CL2: Call of the Haunted resolves, Special Summoning Blue-Eyes White Dragon from the Graveyard.
CL1: Mystical Space Typhoon resolves, destroying Call of the Haunted. Since Call of the Haunted was destroyed, Blue-Eyes White Dragon is also destroyed by its effect.
Chain finishes resolving. Now, Special Summoning the Blue-Eyes was definitely not the last thing to happen, but Lord Gaia the Fierce Knight can still activate its trigger effect here because its "if" condition has been met and "if" effects don't miss timing. Basically, this page.
An example of an effect (rather than a cost) causing stuff to miss timing is Goblindbergh's effect: "When this card is Normal Summoned: You can Special Summon 1 Level 4 or lower monster from your hand, also, after that, change this card to Defense Position."
When you summon a monster with 1500 or more ATK with this effect, the opponent cannot activate Bottomless Trap Hole since it reads: "When your opponent Summons a monster(s) with 1500 or more ATK: Destroy that monster(s) with 1500 or more ATK, and if you do, banish it."
Since the last event to happen was not a monster being summoned but rather Goblindbergh changing to Defense position, Bottomless Traphole misses timing.
"Priority" is another of those old mechanics that don't exist anymore but the word still exists to describe something else entirely, so it can get misused by people.