Author Topic: Shooter games (Read 156920 times)

Zengar Zombolt · « **Reply #360 on:** October 11, 2009, 01:08:51 AM »

Quote from: shadowbringer on October 11, 2009, 12:54:37 AM

[ ] kill me if Donut manages to legitimately 1cc Garegga and Batrider (the rank-controlled way, of course ) and still insists in playing for survival only

He's going to claim this one way or another, so :V

nintendonut888 · « **Reply #361 on:** October 11, 2009, 01:11:27 AM »

Why is it so hard to believe that I dislike playing games for score?

The only game I've ever liked doing that on is Star Fox 64, because once you've played the game enough to beat it without dying every time there's not much else to keep the variety up. I score in a game only as far as I need to get every life I can get.

Matsuri · « **Reply #362 on:** October 11, 2009, 01:15:15 AM »

Quote from: nintendonut888 on October 11, 2009, 01:11:27 AM

Why is it so hard to believe that I dislike playing games for score?

Because you're limiting your enjoyment of a game doing that, since you're not playing it to its full potential.

nintendonut888 · « **Reply #363 on:** October 11, 2009, 01:16:32 AM »

Then why do I hate myself so much more when I DO try to play for score? :V I figured out why I've done so horrible on MS extra lately: Because I've been trying to play for score. Once I stopped trying to do that I kick Alice's ass like usual.

LHCling · « **Reply #364 on:** October 11, 2009, 01:20:37 AM »

But I've seen you subconsciously play for score. Even if it's only minor scoring.

Matsuri · « **Reply #365 on:** October 11, 2009, 01:21:34 AM »

You do horrible playing for score because you're playing by a different set of rules, playing differently altogether, having to focus on more than just dodging bullets. When you take the easy way out and stop playing for score, of course it's a lot easier.

nintendonut888 · « **Reply #366 on:** October 11, 2009, 01:23:42 AM »

And that's because stuff like grazing is simply beyond me. I run into bullets when I try to lightly graze them.

And Baity, if you're talking about how I often go to the PoC, then lol @ u. It's not like I AVOID scoring. I simply don't go out of my way at all, and if scoring is detrimental to my survival, I'll forego it.

LHCling · « **Reply #367 on:** October 11, 2009, 01:25:51 AM »

Quote from: nintendonut888 on October 11, 2009, 01:23:42 AM

And Baity, if you're talking about how I often go to the PoC, then lol @ u. It's not like I AVOID scoring. I simply don't go out of my way at all, and if scoring is detrimental to my survival, I'll forego it.

Nope.

I've seen you score with no benefit to your survival in several of your replays.

Matsuri · « **Reply #368 on:** October 11, 2009, 01:27:26 AM »

But shmups are meant to be played for score, or else the developers wouldn't have bothered to program sometimes ridiculously-complex scoring systems into the game. (Mushihimesama Maniac/ULTRA mode for example, where your score can be skyrocketed by using different button pressing frequencies on some enemies, which makes a multiplier counter rise, with a whole bunch of other elements to it)

Honestly, I think grazing is a retarded scoring element, and I see it as a lack of creativity on ZUN's part in all of the games aside from SA, where grazing is the whole point of the entire game. Pretty much every other shmup out there has nothing to do with grazing. and frankly grazing in Touhou isn't that hard at all what are you talking about

nintendonut888 · « **Reply #369 on:** October 11, 2009, 01:37:45 AM »

Quote from: Baity on October 11, 2009, 01:25:51 AM

Nope.

I've seen you score with no benefit to your survival in several of your replays.

Good for...you? I didn't know how I impulsively play was so important. :\ I might do it on the earlier stages because they're already easy...

And Matsuri, maybe that is why I don't LIKE arcade shmups, hmm? If I hate scoring and they're meant for scoring? HMM??? It's yet another thing that ZUN does differently. While score is a part, it's clear that reaching the end was his intention more than anything.

BTW, how do you even score in EoSD besides going for the PoC and grazing? I've seen the WR run (or actually I think it got beaten recently...), and the guy gets a ridiculously large amount of points from bombing and I have no idea how.

LHCling · « **Reply #370 on:** October 11, 2009, 01:52:32 AM »

Quote from: nintendonut888 on October 11, 2009, 01:37:45 AM

Good for...you? I didn't know how I impulsively play was so important. :\ I might do it on the earlier stages because they're already easy...

You seem to do it in all the stages from time to time... Though it's definitely harder for you to pick up things like this if you watch through your own replays, unless you're really observant.

Well, it's not like as if it's a bad thing or something...

Quote from: nintendonut888 on October 11, 2009, 01:37:45 AM

BTW, how do you even score in EoSD besides going for the PoC and grazing? I've seen the WR run (or actually I think it got beaten recently...), and the guy gets a ridiculously large amount of points from bombing and I have no idea how.

Graze-related. This is the major one.

EDIT: Hint; bugs / timing.

Matsuri · « **Reply #371 on:** October 11, 2009, 01:57:05 AM »

Quote from: nintendonut888 on October 11, 2009, 01:37:45 AM

And Matsuri, maybe that is why I don't LIKE arcade shmups, hmm? If I hate scoring and they're meant for scoring? HMM??? It's yet another thing that ZUN does differently. While score is a part, it's clear that reaching the end was his intention more than anything.

BTW, how do you even score in EoSD besides going for the PoC and grazing? I've seen the WR run (or actually I think it got beaten recently...), and the guy gets a ridiculously large amount of points from bombing and I have no idea how.

Retract thy claws, irate pastry.

ZUN's shmups are just as scoring-intensive as many arcade shmups, if not more so in some cases.

Actually, many of ZUN's shmups have high replayability because of some of the scoring systems. However, I never said all of them were good-- just as not all of them are bad. Perfect Cherry Blossom and UFO have really fun scoring systems, while EoSD's is incredibly...dull. Needless to say, I don't play EoSD much because aside from some of the boss fights, it's kind of boring.

moozooh · « **Reply #372 on:** October 11, 2009, 02:04:13 AM »

Quote from: Matsuri on October 11, 2009, 01:27:26 AM

Honestly, I think grazing is a retarded scoring element, and I see it as a lack of creativity on ZUN's part in all of the games aside from SA, where grazing is the whole point of the entire game. Pretty much every other shmup out there has nothing to do with grazing.

Well, there are Radiant Silvergun, Raiden Fighters series, Psyvariar series (superb games, btw), Shikigami no Shiro series, DoDonPachi 2: Bee Storm, and a good number of doujins, among others. Not a selection I'd easily dismiss.

Besides, I don't consider grazing a bad element of scoring system. It's great to excercise risk and reward tradeoffs, and it brings really high tension to scoring at every part of a scoring run. It's really only bad when you're required to milk bosses for every bit of graze for a long time, or when you only get to graze anything easily dodgeable or while under an invulnerability effect most of the time. I think PCB and IN are by far best grazing implementations in a scoring system among Touhou games, and those are coincidentally less focused on graze milking compared to every other Windows Touhou game with a graze counter. See the pattern?

Quote from: Baity on October 11, 2009, 01:52:32 AM

Graze-related. This is the major one.

For some reason I think something is wrong with the last statement there. I don't believe the game generates anywhere over 30000 bullets during the time of a single bomb explosion, while the score increases indicate exactly that. I think the value increases for each subsequent bullet canceled, or akin to Raizing medal progression (every medal on the screen is generated with the same value until you take one of them). That's why the bonuses aren't half as big when you're canceling only half the bullets the WR players do. It's not linear.

LHCling · « **Reply #373 on:** October 11, 2009, 02:08:17 AM »

Quote from: moozooh on October 11, 2009, 02:04:13 AM

For some reason I think something is wrong with the last statement there. I don't believe the game generates anywhere over 30000 bullets during the time of a single bomb explosion, while the score increases indicate exactly that. I think the value increases for each subsequent bullet canceled, or akin to Raizing medal progression (every medal on the screen is generated with the same value until you take one of them). That's why the bonuses aren't half as big when you're canceling only half the bullets the WR players do. It's not linear.

Quote from: Baity on October 11, 2009, 01:52:32 AM

EDIT: Hint; bugs / timing.

There's a small window where the Star Items ~~generated~~ collected don't count as being created by the bomb (it may have something to do with the time it takes for the Star Items to travel I'm guessing though). You can see it when after they bomb, the last second or so of the Star Items that they pick up total up to millions.

Matsuri · « **Reply #374 on:** October 11, 2009, 02:10:06 AM »

Quote from: moozooh on October 11, 2009, 02:04:13 AM

Well, there are Radiant Silvergun, Raiden Fighters series, Psyvariar series (superb games, btw), Shikigami no Shiro series, DoDonPachi 2: Bee Storm, and a good number of doujins, among others. Not a selection I'd easily dismiss

And of all of those, I only really like Raiden Fighters Jet. I haven't played Psyvariar yet so I can't say much on that, and Shikigami no Shiro is... well, I have mixed feelings on it.

In my eyes, it's kind of weird that when the point of a game is dodging bullets, you should get as close as possible to them. If you ask me, there should be a bonus in danmaku shmups for dodging thick patterns and steering clear of bullets as much as possible. Instead it's 'oh, I can dodge all of this, but let's get as close as possible to make it look cool!'

moozooh · « **Reply #375 on:** October 11, 2009, 02:31:31 AM »

But that's essentially rewarding you for doing the most mundane part (i.e., the one you would do for winning the game, anyway). DoDonPachi does pretty much that with its MAX multiplier, actually.

Quote from: Baity on October 11, 2009, 02:08:17 AM

There's a small window where the Star Items ~~generated~~ collected don't count as being created by the bomb (it may have something to do with the time it takes for the Star Items to travel I'm guessing though). You can see it when after they bomb, the last second or so of the Star Items that they pick up total up to millions.

Yeah, that's the reason I suspect they increase in value exponentially, otherwise it's hard to explain such dramatic difference between the last two volleys of bullets converted into stars on certain volley-based attacks. Do you have any conclusive data on that, though? I'd like to establish that, because it's actually an important point source on every mode.

Observer · « **Reply #376 on:** October 11, 2009, 02:40:05 AM »

Quote from: Matsuri on October 11, 2009, 02:10:06 AM

And of all of those, I only really like Raiden Fighters Jet. I haven't played Psyvariar yet so I can't say much on that, and Shikigami no Shiro is... well, I have mixed feelings on it.

In my eyes, it's kind of weird that when the point of a game is dodging bullets, you should get as close as possible to them. If you ask me, there should be a bonus in danmaku shmups for dodging thick patterns and steering clear of bullets as much as possible. Instead it's 'oh, I can dodge all of this, but let's get as close as possible to make it look cool!'

Psyvariar 2 is built around the grazing (buzzing) and you end up pretty much chaining bullets for the Level Up bonuses and more bonuses for keeping the buzzing.

Like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5L2SNX7k4v8

Leveluplevelupleveluplevelup

edit: Jeez, what's wrong with me today. I keep editing this post.

Matsuri · « **Reply #377 on:** October 11, 2009, 02:42:10 AM »

Quote from: moozooh on October 11, 2009, 02:31:31 AM

But that's essentially rewarding you for doing the most mundane part (i.e., the one you would do for winning the game, anyway). DoDonPachi does pretty much that with its MAX multiplier, actually.

I was kind of being sarcastic, thus the

I dunno, I just have never been a big fan of grazing-- not that it's difficult to do, but that it just seems kind of unnecessary.

shadowbringer · « **Reply #378 on:** October 11, 2009, 02:43:10 AM »

moozooh: I've seen the Batrider 1lc video, perhaps have seen the video proving that it's possible to 1lc Garegga as well (through the shmups.org forum), the point was, if Donut prefers to go through such a difficult path instead of playing the funny, greedy, O-rgasmatic way (this is a pun on the guy who did an "O" score in Batrider :p).. (okay, I've exaggerated a bit, you don't have to reach the letters in order to have fun with scoring

) .. I feel there's no other way to introduce Donut on how fun scoring can be (even though these games demand some research and understanding). For my reason of choosing these two games, eheh.. you're given incentive to score in order to get extends and advance (so, I'm sort of removing the easier "survival-only" option :3 ), and in the other games (Varth/Thunder Dragon 2), scoring means surviving longer (except for some bonus scoring stuff, which aren't hard to get the hang of), while still being fun games (imho, Varth pressures me more in order to survive, than Dodonpachi pressures me to maintain the Max Bombs bonus)

Azinth · « **Reply #379 on:** October 11, 2009, 02:52:53 AM »

Quote from: nintendonut888 on October 11, 2009, 01:37:45 AM

And Matsuri, maybe that is why I don't LIKE arcade shmups, hmm? If I hate scoring and they're meant for scoring? HMM??? It's yet another thing that ZUN does differently. While score is a part, it's clear that reaching the end was his intention more than anything.

BTW, how do you even score in EoSD besides going for the PoC and grazing? I've seen the WR run (or actually I think it got beaten recently...), and the guy gets a ridiculously large amount of points from bombing and I have no idea how.

So basically... you claim to hate playing for score, yet you've never tried it or even learned how the scoring systems in any of the shmups you've played actually work? You do realize that you complain about people doing the exact same thing when they say that HRtP is too hard right? :V

Anyway, this is now a 'Whine about Psikyo games because they completely assrape me every time I attempt playing them' thread. I 11cc'd Dragon Blaze's first loop today. It was painful.

LHCling · « **Reply #380 on:** October 11, 2009, 02:54:35 AM »

Quote from: moozooh on October 11, 2009, 02:31:31 AM

Do you have any conclusive data on that, though? I'd like to establish that, because it's actually an important point source on every mode.

That should prove it. A Bomb was launched and Star items were being created from the bullets, each worth 100 Points. But after about 2.4 seconds the Star Items that were collected were worth 33,830 each (which is 500 + 10*[Graze=9999]/3).

(ReimuB)

That's the most conclusive I can get it with just one screenshot. I could upload multiple screenshots displaying the change between the Star Item Values though, if that's needed.

nintendonut888 · « **Reply #381 on:** October 11, 2009, 04:39:25 AM »

If I tried scoring for real would you guys just shut up? :< I find stuff like scoring to be unfun.

Also, I demand an explanation for this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IXpQJkUj9-w&feature=related

What, who, why, how, what? Why the heck are there mecha-lolis in this game, who the heck IS that, why is there an image song for a SHOOTING GAME, how the heck did they make a song for a game like this, and...WHAT?

BTW, you said I've never tried scoring? That's a lie. I happen to have played a game recently where to access the second half of the game you need to be GODLY good at survival or score to a competent extent. I found little entertainment value in trying to score here.

Aisha · « **Reply #382 on:** October 11, 2009, 05:12:32 AM »

Quote from: nintendonut888 on October 11, 2009, 04:39:25 AM

Also, I demand an explanation for this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IXpQJkUj9-w&feature=related

What, who, why, how, what? Why the heck are there mecha-lolis in this game, who the heck IS that,

The first stage boss. In Dai Ou Jou, you got to choose one out of three dolls to pilot your ship; in Dai Fukkatsu, among some new additions, they appear as bosses. Though the character in that picture isn't one of the original three (maybe NSFW). Dai Fukkatsu just screams parallel universe, but I don't really know what's going on. :V Also, upon satisfying certain conditions in each stage can trigger upgraded versions of DoDonPachi bosses to appear as mid-bosses.

Quote

why is there an image song for a SHOOTING GAME, how the heck did they make a song for a game like this, and...WHAT?

That song was played in the background during the game's first unveiling at the AOU Amusement Expo of 2008 (a convention for upcoming arcade games). I remember hearing it among the background noise in a cam video of someone from Shmups Forum playing the game there.

nintendonut888 · « **Reply #383 on:** October 11, 2009, 05:22:26 AM »

That still doesn't answer my last question.

The question of how one of the archetypical "pilot in a ship" series suddenly turned into fighting mecha-lolis (yet still ends with Donpachi sicking Hibachi on you even though I thought he was dead), with an image song of the STAGE 1 BOSS singing "DON DON DON DON" for 3 minutes. Is Cave having a severe target audience change or what?

An Odd Sea Slug · « **Reply #384 on:** October 11, 2009, 05:28:49 AM »

(Paraphrasing due to a bad memory)

Daifukkatsu takes place 100(?) years after Dai Ou Jou. Once the enemies in Dai Ou Jou were defeated, they were sealed in the moon. Naturally, they broke out and decided to run wild again sometime later. Everything in Daifukkatsu (including the player ships) are 'hyper-evolved' versions of their Dai Ou Jou selves.

Now here's to one day being able to play DoDonPachi without dying every ten seconds. :p

Aisha · « **Reply #385 on:** October 11, 2009, 05:41:31 AM »

Oh I doubt that's actually the first boss herself singing.

That's just a promotional poster used for the video backdrop.

Cave has always had a good mix of character-based and ship/mecha-based shmups in their catalog. It's possible that it was just a plain marketing move, but it's also possible that they simply felt the game needed a different artistic approach than its four predecessors. I wonder if there is an interview with Cave or something that addresses the question.

Hibachi in Dai Fukkatsu turns into a loli too.

nintendonut888 · « **Reply #386 on:** October 11, 2009, 07:09:55 AM »

Really? o_O I demand pics. I've seen videos of that fight a number of times and don't see no lolibachi.

Aisha · « **Reply #387 on:** October 11, 2009, 07:40:38 AM »

Hibachi transforms for its (her?) final attack. It's hard to tell what exactly it transforms into, but it's some kind of figure. I'd say that, going along with the game's trend, it's safe to assume that if it's not a loli, then it's at least an older-looking female. Something like that. >.>

nintendonut888 · « **Reply #388 on:** October 11, 2009, 05:45:47 PM »

Ah ha, that? It just looks like Hibachi morphs into a bee humanoid, not a loli.

BTW, what's even going ON in Daifukkatsu Hibachi's last attack? No matter what video I look at, I can't pick apart the individual bullets.

Matsuri · « **Reply #389 on:** October 11, 2009, 06:16:35 PM »

Was having a fantastic play of ESPGaluda, went into stage 4 with 5 lives. Lost one life mid-stage, and lost all of the other 4 on the stage 4 boss. Ugh ;;